What Kata's are and are not!

[platinum_angel]

one sec let me rebutt and prove you wrong again.

man whats wrong with you writing big ass posts like this.

[BlackMaskX]

My two yen

To throw my belated two yen into the conversation, I don't really think katas, at least the way I've seen them trained and performed, are a very practical training tool. I could see how practicing short combinations or strings of moves, and understanding how they could be used in a real fight, would be productive, but long katas/forms, at least the way we did them, did almost nothing to build our sparring abilities. Katas/forms are supposed to help improve technique and teach fighting combinations, but when they are 80 moves long and performed robotically, they don't do this. Granted, the three years I spent in Songahm tae kwon do were McDojoed, and we didn't even use the same hand techniques in forms as we did in sparring (but that is a separate issue). Still, I don't see how katas, even when done with an imaginary opponent in mind, can effectively teach techniques and their applications. I think that sparring, drilling single techniques and practicing short combinations are much more effective methods of doing this.

[eXcessiveForce]

Hi blackmask,


I am very surprised that you would think forms are robotic if you took songahm TKD. 20 years of songahm training and I have never seen a decent blackbelt look robotic. I've seen a few people who should never have been promoted to blackbelt look robotic though. The only robotic forms I know of are sterotyped karateka for the early 70's. As for long forms most songahm forms are under 50 moves. only blackbelt forms are above 80 moves.

But lets use white belt form as an example. 18 moves

High block, (rising block)
Reverse reverse punch
front kick


Advanced info on this segment

High block is a block and disarm for an armed attacker using a overhead downward strike, or punch to face. Over time this technique morphs more into a gaurd. kick to groin



a simple combination that you will do twice in that form once on each side of the body,

turn into attack
Inner forearm block,
side kick
Knifehand
Punch

Advanced info

inner forarm block to any hand attack or as a deflection for a rush.
Side kick to solar plexus or floating ribs based on attacker position. Knife hand to throad or Carotid artery based on position. Punch based on position.

basic move taught with movement but can teach responses to multiple types of attacks.

This is not the best way to train it must be followed up with pad work and bag work and sparring.

I agree pad work and sparring is essential to training.

I however have seen students learn and increase the sparring abilities for over ten years because of the use of forms or sparring.

Kata starts the ground work for the Basic principles, evade and block, counter attack.


Sparring came naturally to me because I loved to do it. But when I started teaching I found out that many students who were walking casualties of coordination waiting to happen learned much faster if they were drilled on technique and Kata before sparring.

I saw much head trauma and injuries for those that were introduced to sparring to early. Those people either learned very quickly or they quit very quickly.

[BlackMaskX]

eXcessiveForce,

When I was taught forms in Songahm, the techniques and sequences weren't really linked back to how they could be used in a real fight. Maybe it was just my particular school. And yes, I was exaggerating when I said that forms have more than 80 moves (although I think the higher-level blackbelt forms have more than that). Still, though, I think there are more effective ways to train than doing even well-taught forms. I agree with you when you say that you can't just immediately immerse the students in sparring before they learn the basic techniques. But, repeatedly working on one technique, doing pad and bag work, and doing short combinations are more effective ways of learning than doing forms, I think.

[eXcessiveForce]

The sad thing is that most instructors do not know how to relate the forms back to concepts. They do what their instructors taught them by mimicing their instructors. To me that is dancing.

Actually over the last few years Songahm TKD has started to move towards drilling combinations for the first few ranks instead of training forms. For good or bad.

I think drilling combinations is the way to go. But to teach techniques quickly so that students can train away from the school forms work very well. I prefer to spend my time teaching new combinations than on teaching them forms. Usually though I can teach a form in one or two days. So they have a basis to practice their new techniques and then I can concentrate on building combinations for them and making sure they understand how to use them.

You are right on the forms for Songahm. 1st degree has 81 second degree has 82. I do not believe any form has more than 100 moves in Songahm.

[Guest]

In many Japanese and Okinawan Kata they have the concept of Bunkai. which basically equates to the "hidden meaning" in the moves. Thus a rising block (a shite technique anyway) becomes some mysterious strike to the throat etc.

Its all nonsense, and is there to enhance the mystique of the martial arts.

Mind you, in fairness, Morio Higoanna is a bit of a hero of mine. He is well respected as a Karate Ka who can do the business for real if needed, and he strongly believes in Kata. He goes all mystical and talks of the striking at thin air as reaching to know himself better..... He also speaks of sdeveloping the spirit by doing Kata hundreds of times in the same session.

Though I do respect him, I think it is all a bit silly. I'm not into the mystical element of martial arts, and doing Kata again and again is merely an inefficient form of exercise. Continuing bag qwork would do your abilities more good, and would be just as good for your fighting spirit.

[platinum_angel]

alright

paragraph 1

alright sounds about except not only would they chase you around and try to hit you but sometimes they would try and tackle you down to the ground.

paragraph 2

what i disagree on is the point that you think that combinations in kata will be beneficial. not from korotty because they tell you to do this technique at a certain angle and a certain way. in a real fight you wont beable to get the right angle in and everything like that. like if you were at horse in a real fight man you would get your ass kicked sooo bad. believe me i've tried it.

i do agree to some degree because korotty did teach me how to punch correctly with out hurting your wrists and how to breath. but thats it. and whenever i fightn now i do keep my wrists straight. even though its hard sometimes excpecially when throwing hooks.

paragraph 3

i bet you do teach the adults all this good stuff but you teach teach them attack and counter, movement, and combinitions that is not very effective. that is of coarse you teach them korotty

paragraph 4

see you need to make them learn like 4 to 5 basic move combinations because if teach them like 10 combinations then when they get in a fight they will have to think more than fight the moment you stutter in a fight is moment where you get your ass beat. not to mention those combinations you teach are sometimes complicated.

paragraph 5-this is your worst paragraph

If you believe Kata is for high level you are silly. Some systems introduce new skills to at high levels in the Kata but a Highly skilled person does not need to train kata that is below their level. Blackbelts don't do white belt Kata. They do blackbelt Kata because there are new skills being taught. New skills by nature make the person unskilled.

like my old sensei used to say(she was a 3rd degree) you can always learn somthing new from your old kata. i agree with this its in the theory. mabye you should ask someone that is higher rank then you.

paragraph 6

sounds like a decent plan that is for korotty

paragraph 7

so are you saying i'm indestructable -- thanks

paragraph 8

well they are going to get their brains beat in or just beat up anyway and if they don't then you know what they are doing is not effective

paragraph 9

sounds good

paragraph 10

i've never taken krav maga but i heard from a friend it was boring too. but i guess thats the price you pay if you want something realistic and pracitcal.

paragraph 11

don't really get this paragraph sorry

paragraph 12

who trains with one move? lol. and hitting the pad will to help you on the street because it forms habits quiker reflexs and more strength.

paragraph 13

well you have to train those techniques in a dynamic situation before they are effective in a dynamic situation. you can't say oh well i practiced this combination in kata therefore i will do this in a fight its not going to work out this way.

paragraph 14

another thing belts don't determine your skill.

paragraph 15

true true

paragraph 16

]

ok

[eXcessiveForce]

Plat just a couple comments


First every thing in the Kata's my students learn are drilled on pads usually in the next class.


Second I did not say you could not learn from old material. Hell I learned more teaching color belts than I I did training to begin with. My point was every new kata works on skills that you have not trained in which makes you unskilled in that area.

Third. You seem to think I have something against sparring and drilling. I don't

Fourth. If my students have to think about the combinations then they haven't been training enough. The combinations should happen without thinking. It's like typing as soon as you start thinking about your fingers hitting the keys you are finished. Same thing with combinations. The combination flows until it is no longer practical and a new combination begins and flows until it is no longer practical.

You demonstrate what I was saying in the begining. People who think that Kata are combinations meant to be executed in artifical stances and such have no understanding of Kata. Kata's use stances to achieve body position, balance and to set the basis for the technique. a horse stance that you keep bringing up is just a type of gaurd with the knees bent way to damn far. Stances are not used in self defense because who knows how you will be standing when you are attacked.

Fifth, I don't exactly know what you think Korotty is but if that leads to lots of students do Alive drills and Sparring then yes I do.
I teach in a way that allows people to learn and not take unnecessary injuries in the process. Something my instructors did not do for me.

As for what I teach not being effective, I don't know what you train in, but one my assistant instructors in a JKD instructor who trained with Terry Gibson and Mike Griffin and Vunak if I remember correctly. My students have no problem with self defense or with ineffective techniques.

It sounds to me you only have the basic info on Kata training since you don't seem to grasp the idea of changing from static drills to dynamic drills.

I am not saying that Kata is going to make students better than pad drilling students or anything of the sort. I just get tired of people spouting uneducated information about Kata training.

Makes people robotic indeed. So to use someone elses example, Dancers are robotic because they practice in this fashion? it doesn't make sense. Most Kata start robotic but become fluid as the student learns the material.

[Graciefan]

I tend to think of katas as combat jazzersize.
You'll get about the same out of it.

[Typhoon]

Belts in Karate and TKD definitely dont detrmine skill. I took my first week of tkd this week ( I did muy thai for a year) and I can hit harder with my legs most then most brown belts can there. But that my also be effected by me doing gymnastics. As for katas I think they are somehwat usefull and somewaht useless, usefull cause peopel ue them to get up in rankings, useless cause I would much ratehr do shadow boxing or practices my own combos and moves as I use them, and also saying that katas improve your moves depends on the kata.

Typically i think tkd katas and karate katas are useless they use moves which you would pretty much never use in any real fight, but stuff like when I had to get my first charm in thai boxing and do soemething like a kata on a doll do pushkick, jab cross, uppercut, hook , two elnbows, two knees, pushkick, and two round kicks, thats pretty usefull cause those moves you use a lot, for second charm you an elbow combo in the air basicly so i guess its a kata although from that you do learn proper techqnie you still wonr "really" learn how it feeels and how to do it properly unless you do it on pads.

[rooke]

Misc

Karate IS effective. Its the practitioner. Kyokushin guys kick butt in the ring and various full contact tournaments. Kyokushin also has katas. Mas Oyama challenged people from a variety of disciplines, including kickboxing and wrestling, and won.

Karate and kickboxing are 2 different mechanisms. Don't get me wrong, I studied Muay Thai (some sparring, never got around to the ring due to work) off and on for about 5 years. Love it. But its TAUGHT at most schools for the RING. Karate is generally NOT about the ring. I have seen some good karate people... I mean dangerous good. And I've seen the same for Muay Thai as well.

The amateur quote about "Katas are useless...its much better to work on a heavy bag" (which I've heard from numerous people) is absurd. Hitting a bag and working on your cross or jab is JUST as much of a form (as is shadowboxing) as kata. The difference is that Kata teaches SPECIFIC targets used in conjunction for an overall effect, as well as teaching takedowns, throws, and locks. Can katas prepare you for the ring? About as much as working on the heavy bag. Only sparring will prepare you for sparring. And there's NO rule in karate that doesn't advocate then...infact at every GOOD and truly "traditional" school I know, there's a LOT of sparring.

I do NOT do karate. Never have. I stick with the SE Asian martial arts. However its absurd to hear people who take arts that DO NOT use forms, critique one that does. Especially since they have not invested the time to compare the two. And the old thing about "I don't NEED to eat brocolli to know I don't like it" is fine. But its not an educated opinion when you're comparing two methodologies out to achieve the same result, without ever trying the other.

Yes, there are a billion bad karate schools out there...find me an art where ALL the schools are great. Its a matter of investigation.

Rooke

[neil]

BELTS

The best quote I ever heard in relation to belts is that belts are no more than an indication of technical proficiency.

If you think of it logically, a TKD black belt could train in say Shotokan for a month, and then enter competitions as a shotokan novice. The people he/she faces will think they are competing against someone who hasn't yet done their first grading.

Hence a belt certainly dosen't indicate sparring/fighting ability.

Have to say I agree with excessive force on what kata as meant for.

[ryanhall]

Karate is generally NOT about the ring.

You first justify karate by saying that "Kyokushin guys kick butt in the ring and various full contact tournaments," but then you go on to add that karate is better because id does not focus on the ring? Contradiction.

The amateur quote about "Katas are useless...its much better to work on a heavy bag" (which I've heard from numerous people) is absurd. Hitting a bag and working on your cross or jab is JUST as much of a form (as is shadowboxing) as kata

Do you strike a solid surface in kata practice? Do you visualize the same set of attacks and counters in a shadowboxing session? If you answered "yes" to both, then you are correct that they are kata. If not, then your arguement falls apart.

I do NOT do karate. Never have. I stick with the SE Asian martial arts. However its absurd to hear people who take arts that DO NOT use forms, critique one that does. Especially since they have not invested the time to compare the two. And the old thing about "I don't NEED to eat brocolli to know I don't like it" is fine. But its not an educated opinion when you're comparing two methodologies out to achieve the same result, without ever trying the other.

I have never taken karate either. I don't need to formall learn a system in order to form an opinion on it. I have, however, taken an art that does make use of forms training (Hapkido). It was a royal waste of my time. Forms are like dancing. Really. As far as I know, Muay Thai and Kali/Escrima/Arnis do not make use of forms. Silat and Bando are about the only other mainstream Southeast Asian arts that come readily to mind. Do they use forms? I've never seen someone who doesn't study an art agrue so much for its legitimacy. Wouldn't your opinion of karate (as someone who has never studied it) be just as uninfomed as mine? It would stand to reason so.

And there's NO rule in karate that doesn't advocate then...infact at every GOOD and truly "traditional" school I know, there's a LOT of sparring.

But I thought you didn't take karate? I find it hard to keep up with all the schools in my area, much less know what goes on at them. Are you sure that you've not taken a karate class here or there?

[eXcessiveForce]

I was driving to an appointment today and thinking about something Bri said.

about no other sports/activites use any system like Kata.

Then I thought when I played basketball be ran passing drills over and over and over. We rarely put opponents infront of us when we did them. Same thing when I was little and we practiced changing hands dribbling and things to that nature. When you do that you are practicing skills you will use in a game.

The samething happened when I played soccer. We practiced passing up the field and shoot at the goal but there was no one there to stop us. Same route same passes.

Football does the same thing

Golf the practice their swing without hitting a ball. Then they move up to wiffel balls for practice.

The military practices disassembling and reassembling weapons.

When my brother learned to drive they sat in the car and practiced driving without the thing moving just so that he would be more familiar with the car.


For those of you that follow the logic that you don't need to learn form or recognition and such and just go and spar and shadowbox. Let me offer this

When you have children and they reach about four years old let me come over and play catch with them for the first time. The more fast balls I throw at them the better they will get at catching them if the logic holds up.

[BlackMaskX]

eXcessiveForce,

Those are some interesting analogies, but I think they miss the mark a little bit. The training for the other activities you referred to are more like training a single technique or short combination in martial arts, not practicing a full-length form.