military combat!!

[Kingston]

one more thing wich i like about systema. Its not a competition with your partner. The practices are made up of different sparring games, some people can get afraid of losing, or looking bad, this is exactly what we dont want to happen in systema.

for example getting taken down is not bad, getting hit is not bad. There should be no difference if your on the ground or standing up. If someone try's to trip you or throw you, you can go with the motion and accualy lessen the amount of damage you suffer (if any) as well as roll out of the way.

if you see two people doing a drill, its not to "show there stuff" its to learn new things. Its not a contest where there are losers or winners, its just play. You play with your partner. This can be hard for people to do (i find myself getting frustrated sometimes when something doesn't work, or resisting a move and getting myself into an awkward possiton when i could have rolled away)

You dont come to practice to prove yourself, you come there to learn.

[PBR549]

Hand to Hand combat that is tought in the U.S. Army is pretty good. Its called Army Combatives. Its based on Gracie Jiu-Jitsu. This is just the basics though, as you progress through the skill levels, you learn different techniques. You can check out the manual online n Ft. Bennings web site, I think its available to the public. THe good thing is we dont have "shake and bake instructors".

[ryanhall]

Kingston,
What does your post have to do with anything that has been said? Sparring and drilling are learning tools, not about proving how bad you are. Nobody said differently. Secondly, I don't care who you are, arm punching doesn't hurt very much, and it will get you bashed pretty good if the other guy is allowed to hit back. Shouldn't these video clips be representative of what you train? If they are, then Systema doesn't have much going for it in my opinion.

If someone try's to trip you or throw you, you can go with the motion and accualy lessen the amount of damage you suffer (if any) as well as roll out of the way.

Why would you ever want to put yourself on the ground willingly, espcially without taking the other guy there with you? That is a recipe for disaster. Secondly, you don't usually have room to role out of the way, as real fights (the ones Systema says they train for) tend to happen in close quarters and in environments that restrict mobility.

If your willing to learn he will be very happy to teach you, if not, well thats ok to, your lose

I don't lose if those videos are representative of the training. I would be glad to learn from him, as long as he didn't try to teach me how to kick a knife out of someone's hand.

If you ever do go to a seminar (or practice) dont be afraid to confront Vlad and tell him how you feel, he'll just smile, allow you to attack him, and he'll show you

I have never been rude about telling any instructor how I feel about what they teach. This sounds like: "my sensei can beat you up, you'd better watch out." I'd much rather ask one of his students to show me something, as what Vlad may or may not be able to do is of no consequence. It's what the people he teaches are capable of that matters. You ready to go, Kingston?

[Kingston]

Originally posted by ryanhall
Kingston,
What does your post have to do with anything that has been said? Sparring and drilling are learning tools, not about proving how bad you are. Nobody said differently. Secondly, I don't care who you are, arm punching doesn't hurt very much, and it will get you bashed pretty good if the other guy is allowed to hit back. Shouldn't these video clips be representative of what you train? If they are, then Systema doesn't have much going for it in my opinion.


Why would you ever want to put yourself on the ground willingly, espcially without taking the other guy there with you? That is a recipe for disaster. Secondly, you don't usually have room to role out of the way, as real fights (the ones Systema says they train for) tend to happen in close quarters and in environments that restrict mobility.


I don't lose if those videos are representative of the training. I would be glad to learn from him, as long as he didn't try to teach me how to kick a knife out of someone's hand.


I have never been rude about telling any instructor how I feel about what they teach. This sounds like: "my sensei can beat you up, you'd better watch out." I'd much rather ask one of his students to show me something, as what Vlad may or may not be able to do is of no consequence. It's what the people he teaches are capable of that matters. You ready to go, Kingston?

lol maybe in a couple years ill take up that offer, i would probably get creamed at this point.

I think you missed to point of what i was saying. If you dont have room to roll dont roll, we are never told to "roll when he does that" but we are tought that we CAN roll when he does that.

your not putting yourself on the ground willingly as you put it. Its more like instead of being in a weak position or having your head bash into the pavement, you can roll.

Systema is an extremly close quarter MA they say the distance you want from your attacker is touching him, also you should try to move around without losing contact.

As far as kicking the knife out of the guys hand, Systema try's to encourage creativity in your spontaneous attacks........it worked didn't it? lol i personaly have never been tought to do that. We like to use common sence, if i am not confident with that i will not do it. (vlad was a very good kicker and still is, most people are not)

one of vlads students? Go to Mikhails Seminar Vlad will be there, he is Mikhails student, its all systema, and we are all students untill we die.

as long as we get tought in the same fashion that vlad was there should not be a great difference. (in skill that is, Systema is unique to everyone).

Check out the website see if there are any seminars comming soon to an area near you. It should answe alot of your questions.

The funny thing about systema is that it looks like some slow motion dance lesson......oh well.

[bloodfury]

Yeah I'm in the military but they don't really teach that kind of knockdown dragout stuff like you think, because basically it's all about subduing somebody only, not knocking somebody's dick in the dirt. I can tell you that certain Army and Navy sectors are training BJJ, although I'm pretty sure it's only the self defense aspects of it. I train w/Relson Gracie in Hawaii and he does a lot of military seminars.

[PBR549]

bloodfury, when you progress through the skill levels of Army Combatives, you start to learn mare nastier techniques for hurting the enemy.

[kengar]

The System:
I went to a class to check it out and I was a bit impressed with the instructor and what I was shown. At the end of class I tried to attack the instructor full force with a training knife and it always ended with me on the ground. I'm not going to bother trying to explain what he did, because I'm still wondering. If you can find a good place to train I'd say check it out.

US Army Combatives:
That manual for the most part sucks. The grappling in it can not be categorized as 'combat grappling'.

[PBR549]

Of course th manual sucks, you have to have the actual hands on training then you can use the manual as a guide line for training.

[ryanhall]

The manual sucks because it is basically a how-to on Vale Tudo, not combat. It's all sport and ring stuff that has little or no relevance to a soldier.

[ryanhall]

bloodfury, when you progress through the skill levels of Army Combatives, you start to learn mare nastier techniques for hurting the enemy.

You're missing the point. You shouldn't have to progress through a curriculum in order to learn something that you might use. Also, I don't care how easy it is to learn, training the ground as your base is foolish from a military standpoint. Too many of these trainers were choked out by the Gracies at seminars and started believing in the invincibility or superiroity of grappling. Even if grappling were suitable to the battlefield, which it certainly is not, how will any soldier ever be half of what a Gracie is in terms of skill and the ability to apply his knowledge? He won't be. Stick to weapons, because the Army training manual is pretty poor.

[kengar]

You're missing the point. You shouldn't have to progress through a curriculum in order to learn something that you might use. Also, I don't care how easy it is to learn, training the ground as your base is foolish from a military standpoint.

Exactly

Military h2h would not involve a 30 minunte grapple match for the guard postion. Soldiers need ground work, but it should only be combat oriented. Not the friendly pass the guard stuff thats in the manual. And if they intended for you to use nasty tactics then it should have been outlined in the manual so any soldier could pick it up and learn how to fight if they ever found them self in that situation. Though hands on is great and you learn more doing so, but they should not have to progress from this manual to learn techniques the are applicable to combat. That is the difference between a manual that's good and one that sucks

[PBR549]

RyanHall and Kengar, are you guys in or have you ever been in the military, let alone the Infantry or Special Operations?

[ryanhall]

No I have not, but I have family who have served and a number of friends who currently do. Whether or not I currently serve in the armed forces has nothing to do with my being qualified to review a manual on unarmed combat. I do not intend to be condescending, but it is evident that you do not have a grasp of what hand to hand combat entails, or you would not be arguing with me over the value of groundfighting for serious combat or the fact that you should have to progress in order to learn workable skills.

[PBR549]

Im not argueing either, but what you dont understand is how the Army works. Army Combatives is brand new in the Army. Yes, Hand to Hand combat has existed since there as been a US Army, but the current Army Combatives program is very new, our school as only opened in the last 4 or 5 years. It is still a fledgling concept. We have to start somewhere with the systems we have chosen to base our combatives off of.
Now, I am a currently an Infantryman. My prefered method of dealing with the enemy is to put 2 rounds in his center of mass from as far away as possible. Im considered an expert marksman in the Army, so I am confident I can do this. BUT, if the shit hits the fan and I run out of ammo or my weapon malfunctions and I cant use it as a club and I am not far away from the enemy, such as in an urban environment or a trench fortification, I can rely on the techniques that the Army has taught me. I will be wearing a kevalr helmet that is heavy, a kevlar vets that is heavy and cumbersome, I will be wearing about 35 lbs of equipmet and ammo on my load bearing equipment and some heavy combat boots. I know that I cant kick or punch because of all the equipment I am wearing. But what I can do is grab the enemy and try to take him to the ground because I have my squad coming in behind me and they can put a bullet in that ****ers head because I have him occupied. Now, on an open battlefield would I do this? No, but In Close Quaters Combat, I see our system of combatives very effective.

[H@pkid0ist]

I think that one thing we have to keep in mind here is that the use of MA in regular force training is still a pretty novel idea. It is still developing. Everytime I turn around I hear that the military is using some different system. The problem is right now as with everything they are doing what someone who has a lot of rank, their personal prefrence or what they were exighted about from a convencing demo. The system they train in will change to many times to imagine. Unlike everyone on this board they are not all experience in some way or anther in the MA. It will take them time to figure out what is the best MA or combination of systems for field combat and soldiers.
Me personally, if I was an enemy soldier from another country and I saw an American rolling on the ground with one of my comrads in combat I would just shoot both of them and know that my comrad gave all for our cause.