how do you tell someone that their style is crap without hurting their feelings?

[Cain]

hmm..

so dear choke, if I were to fight a thaiboxer, with strikes, i could decide that no wrapping was allowed, that the fight was to happen with normal jeans and a shirt, that fingerstrikes to eyes was allowed, strikes to the throath too? or..? should you limit it in the ways that only the thaiboxer could get advantages..? i don't think that seem very fair..

[Toudiyama]

If the karateka was a modarate Kyokushin, Ashihara or EnshinKarateka......I don't know really could be either way

A S!#@R!an karateka would be dead unless he manages to stay out of range and try to sting everytime a lowkick missis target and is pulled through, but the stances they are esed to working in don't allow them to move fast out of range So he would be a bloody mess his legs a purple lump of flesh unable to stand for weeks

Reason I can think of for not getting in the ring other than being affraid that the ineffectiveness is shown... in these events even the winner gets hurt no big deal if fighting these event is your living but for most karateka I know this is not the case and if wee haave to stay home from work it is costing us a lot of money
Only guys really makking a living from karate are in past their 40's
and these aren't the guys we want to see compete because they could blame their age

Also I for one do not like to fight, whenever I can I willl avoid it, I do not like to damage people unless they leave me no choise, now why would I enter a NHB event where I have to start with the intention to damage someone to be able to survive?

Also even if a karateka would enter and be beaten by a thaiboxer, does that mean that in a real life situation a karateka will alway lose? this implies that everyone knows thaiboxing, shurely not
But then again karateka would lose against any contact sporter so chances of running into one is higher
But on the other hand most MAs don't pick a fight, they only finish it

As for the one puch one kill shit, I already agreed that that is the biggest load of crap around, it was before the invention of MMA and it still is, maybe Tyson could do a one punch kill but he isn't human(talked to the men in black about that )

[CHOKE UK]

Cain, Finger - strikes ????
Is that the only feeble excuse you can offer ?

You wouldnt get the chance to use it,
as you have better things to think about,
when you are being knocked-out !
To use such tecniques, as this finger business,
I agree very effective,
but what leads me to believe that most karateka dont know how to apply it is that like you , they only seem to understand the theory.
You have obviously never tried using this whilst sparring.
As you would know that first you must have an element control or contact before you can apply it, very difficult when you are "flying-through-the air" with the greatest of ease!

Toudiyama, you have a more sensible approach,
but both of you dont necessarily get too hurt,
if the opponents are reasonably matched !
Trouble is when you fight most karateka,
it isnt evenly matched !

Presumably they are so busy trying to poke the thai boxer in the eye, they forget to fight!
Maybe thats why they shout out KEEEE-"EYE" !!!
Even when they miss with their "kee-eye" attack,
the loud sound delivered from the lungs and soul will put the fear of god into the opponent!
If all else fails, use the karate secret weapon.......The feared and dreaded.........KATA.

Like I say, some Karate's are ok
but most lack so much, that it is embarrassing.

But like the alcoholic does not accept he is one.
like the gambler doesnt accept he is one.
etc,etc
The karateka does not accept,
that his beloved karate is generally inadequate.

There should be a betty Ford clinic,
for inadequate karateka.
It'd sure get pretty busy!

So stand up and say your name and accept it,
" Hello my names....... and yes i'm an inadequate karateka"!
And the councillor will say in a gentle calming voice;
"dont worry my child, we are all inadequate karateka's here, you are among friends" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[seeker]

Choke, you are right that Muaythai is VERY efective in the ring, taht is one reason why I'm doing it, but it doesn't mean that it is totally unbeatable.
I can see that you did not mean only to tell people how great Muaythai is, but I just wanted to remind you that there are other good arts, too. People often tell stories how a thaiboxer has beaten up all fighters of other styles, but there has been some figths where quite the opposite has happened. Ones Jomhod Kiadzak had a fight against a finnish boxer, and lost.
This is only one example, na dmaybe not the best one.
Any way, I think it is best to do may different arts and train under many different instructors. That way you´ll learn may things, use the ones seem the best for you and drop out the other things.

[Cain]

hehe

how cute, this kid 'knows' what i do and don't.. first of all i don't do karate at all, and i have never done it.. I'm just sick and tired of the bjj/MT hype..! ofcourse, those two are great arts, but unbeatable? perfect? not in any way.. and no, you don't need more contact to kick someone in the balls, or poke them in the eye, or hit their throath.. than to kick their shin, or hit their chin.. if you think so, try it out.. but this stupid "I know it all, and I have fought in the streets all my life and you don't know anything at all beacause I do MT" is just bullshit..!

and bashing thousands and thousands of schools based on the few schools and athletes you have seen, is also something i find... immature!


and again, I like MMA, I like grappling.. bjj..! but it isn't perfect, as nothing is.. and to disgard all traditional arts (pankration is a very traditional and old SPORTSbased martial art, it was only for sports and tournaments) beacause you are on this nice hype? noo..

[Toudiyama]

Choke : in an evenly matched MMA fight chances are higher that injuries will occur, when unevenly matched the fight won't last that long and will be intervened(spelling?) by the refferee
One question for you: when you stopped karate and switched to something else, did it take you longer or shorter to learn and become good at it?

Cain: thanks, saved me from writing the same

[CHOKE UK]

Cain, I am not saying that muay thai is the best or is unbeatable.
Thats my point,
but incomparrison to karate, it is vastly superior.
I do don not claim to be "all-knowing",
But am merely stating a well known fact.

Anyone can find examples where this does not happen, but these are the exceptions to the rule.

Toudiyama, I am not saying that everyone must fight in competitions, but merely stating that if a karate guy fights someone who has done muay thai/kickboxing or the likes,
then most will quickly find out that they have been living with a false sence of security.

cain, why are you so sure that your theories are right ?

Perhaps you are right?

But wouldnt you like to prove it in the ring ?

I've heard you like "getting-in-the-ring" !!!
LOL.................

[Toudiyama]

Choke: aall your argument come down to one thing, if you have trained with contact you have an advantage, it has nothing to do with the techniques only with the intension at which they are delivered and the ability to take a punch/hit, especialy to the head

Still leaves my question: is it easy or hard to adapt to a full contact style when starting out in karate?

The only thai boxer that supprised me was Mousid at that time european champion, smaller than mee but way faster so before I could block a lowkick it already landed and when I tried to lowkick he was already waiting with his block AND the biggest suprise a flying punch

Others didn't pose a problem to me because the only difference to me was a couple of inches

In 78 when I started out, most if not all karateteachers came from judo, probably because of that, groundfighting is done on a regular basis as is fallbreaking and throws/takedowns
So ending up on the ground wouldn't supprise karateka from my generation(and my country)neither, nor our teachers
In other countries it is probably different

[Tom Yum]

TKD RULES!!!!

Just kidding.

BJJ has a lot of focus on the ground, where many other arts don't. Knowing what to do from the ground is important but not the focus of all fighting. In one on one mma, its very important. In the first couple of UFCs grapplers had their way with TKD, karate and kickboxing. but you see guys who are kickboxers with basic ground work seem to do well, take Chuck Lidell or Maurice Smith for instance. They made grapplers have to learn stand up. Remember when Mo ko'd Conan Silvera in the EFC? In one on one competitions, the more realistic fighting styles win boxing/kickboxing/wrestling/jj.

So what about self-defense for the non mma practicioner? Any MA that teaches how to disarm weapons, strike hard, control your adversary and deal with multiple attackers is probably the best. I think some of the best self-defense MAs are hapkido, traditional Japanese jiujitsu, judo and kempo. You learn all of the wonderful eye gouges, throat strikes, groin strikes, fishhooks and a few more surprises plus basic control maneuvers, escapes, takedowns and weapon defense. Allthough I must comment weapon defense is under utilized in some styles and isn't practiced religously.

[Cain]

hmm

I'll try to get trough to mr Choke once more time.. i don't do karate <-- read that a couple of time, until it sits.. ok?! thanks..

now to the other things: what works in a thai-ring with thai-rules is _not_ the same as what would work out on the street, and what _you_ have seen of karate where _you_ live is _not_ the same as karate everywhere in this world..? still following me choke? and no, I'm not very interested in fighting in rings, it is fun, challenging, interesting, but I have got my share of injuries from fighting in rings, and i don't have the love for broken bones.. weirdly enough! My point is that what works on the street is different from what works in a ring.. you have different clothing, the setting is different, the ground is harder... one of the guys i trust the most have never done any martial arts at all, i wouldn't fight him if my life depended on it..


so again... flaming entire art beacause of american mc-dojangs is stupid, try to learn, read.. instead of coming with bullshit and labeling it "facts" since they are far from facts... they are _your_ thoughts! and thaiboxers thougths, no doubt.. and you are ofcourse in your right to have what opinions you want, but so are the rest of the world..!

[CHOKE UK]

Cain, you dont do karate, by any chance do you ?

Why dont you just come out and admit it?
Is it because you dont want to scare Rickson ?
(reference to your signature)
YOu must do karate, no one else, would speak so much but say so little!

And have zero "sence" of humour.

The people who take themselves most serious and think they are so-good, have usually be from karate.

Like I say not all karate schools are bad, but many are totally inadequate.

To blindly deny that, is part of the reason these inadequacies exist !

The truth hurts, but from the pain we learn.

Cain, what Karate is you say you do !!!!!

[seeker]

Choke, Like Toudiyama said, the fact that a muaythai-fighter is likely to win a karateka is about training with full contact. I think that the weak point of some karate-schools/styles is that they concentrate too much on kata and other training in stead of sparring. Of course the advantage of this is that you learn to execute the techniques totally right, but if you don´t study to apply your techniques when someone is attacking you (=sparring) it is pretty hard to use the techniques. I also think that it is not good to forget the good-old kata-type of training. You need to learn to walk before you can run, anyway.

[CHOKE UK]

seeker, you dont really believe that do you ?

A good way of telling if someone knows anything about self-defence, is to ask them if they think kata is usefull?

Standard karate kata is about as usefull as tariq aziz's alibi !

"I didnt do it Judge, I was busy doing kata with Mr Bush"

[Nick]

...

I have trained in Goju Ryu/Surinji Kenpo for about eight years now, and I can honestly say that karate doesn't suck -- it just depends on the teacher. My sensei stresses practical techniques for self-defense. Could he knock out somebody in the ring? Probably not because he'd be wearing gloves, but could he take someone on the street? Sure. Not only does Goju have striking, but it has elbows, knees and grappling, plus my instructor stresses the importance of mobility. Karate is a very diverse style and definitely isn't crap.

[conach]

Before I get to business, my respects to the Dutch martial arts community, especially dutch Muay Thai, Savate and Kyokushinkai... These people know their business. Ramon Dekker is probably the most respected dutch Thai boxer of all times. Dekker had the balls to go to Thailand and kick ass directly at Lumpinee. Well, evenly... He kicked ass and also got his kicked. But no matter what, he stood up there and showed that the dutch are a menace. My respects Toudiyama...

Ok... "Also even if a karateka would enter and be beaten by a thaiboxer, does that mean that in a real life situation a karateka will always lose?"... Yes, a karateka will always lose to a Thai boxer, either competing or "real life". A karateka can't stand "real life" Thai strikes, it would be a blood bath. No karateka can't stand up to a Thai boxer, period. And "putting a karateka in the ring having to fight a thaiboxer on thaiboxing rules is like asking a soccerplayer to play an american footbal game"... That test was done years ago directly in Thailand and Thai boxers mopped the floor with Karatekas, Kung-Fu fighters, Benny Urquidez and even Don "Dragon" Wilson. We can discuss for miles on this matter and the conclusion will always be Muay Thai (and BJJ for grappling). Knees, elbows, headbutts (we're talking "real life", right?)... Come on guys, its perfect!! True Seeker, "it doesn't mean that it is totally unbeatable", but you have to fight hard to beat it. Yes Cain, you're "sick and tired of the bjj/MT hype", but what can we do about it? Muay Thai and BJJ have proven themselves superior, that's not our fault!!

Toudiyama: is it easy or hard to adapt to a full contact style when starting out in karate? Its easier to adapt if you do Kyokushinkai instead of traditional karate styles. I do Kyokushinkai and is a very hard style, and the sparring is in full contact.


How do you tell someone that their style is crap without hurting their feelings? The folks that do traditional karate styles will tell you this... "I do it just for fun, conditioning, and I don't want to be an ass kicker". "Just for conditioning, I don't want to be the next UFC or K1 champion"...