"Real" Streetfighting

[Great Sage]

Originally posted by ryanhall
I definitely disagree. How do you figure this? A street fighter isn't a title that someone holds. I doubt if anyone who is truly tough and has been around the block a few times and is over the age of 21 would consider themselves a 'street fighter.'

No one said it was a title. It's a classification for lack of a better word. A lot of professional fighters start out as neighborhood tough guys.

Originally posted by ryanhall
Not true. They are not as vulnerable to the stress of the situation as you are. Why? They picked the time and place of the fight/assault, they chose YOU specifically, not the other way around, they have far more "real world" violent expereince than most civilians (that would include you), and they are not thinking of using martial arts, as they just want to hurt you. As far as training for the situation goes, unless you do realistic scenario work and/or adrenal stress training, you are no better off than they are. You may hit harder, but that's about it.

I think the question at hand had to do with, who is better prepared for a confrontation, a martial artist or streetfighter (for lack of a better word)... In that sense, I would say a martial artist.

Furthermore, while what you stated is true to an extent, most people who commit crimes of assault have a motive and when that motive is thwarted, they tend to abandon the situation. I don't believe there are many tough streetfighters whose motive is to find a good fight... Most people who assault others are desparate for money, sex or other reasons unknown. In which case, many attackers are just as nervous and afraid as you are.

If you're talking about predators out there that just want to kill or harm people, then ofcourse no training in the world will prepare anyone. It will come down to survival skills.

Originally posted by ryanhall
Wrong. Many of the toughest people I have run into have no training at all or just minimal training (self-taught or a year of boxing/wrestling). The average martial artist just ain't that bad a dude.

First of all, the average person isn't as prepared for combat as the average martial artist. Second of all, the tough guys you mentioned are not as tough as martial artists within the same ranks — professional boxers, NHB guys etc... The rare tough guy that can handle MA students doesn't dissuade the fact that MA training is vital for combat. Would Ali had become a better fighter had he simply stayed a street brawler? I think not.

[ryanhall]

Great Sage,

I think the question at hand had to do with, who is better prepared for a confrontation, a martial artist or streetfighter (for lack of a better word)... In that sense, I would say a martial artist.

I believe that you are underestimating what a 'streetfighter' really is. They are not unprepared, and in many cases, are more prepared. In real life, mental preparation is primary and physical preparation is secondary. In addition, just because someone doesn't fight 'normally' (i.e. punches and kicks) doesn't mean that they can't and won't hurt you worse than you could them. Real life fights usually come down to who is willing to go further and who is more vicious in thier attempts to hurt their opponent rather than who is more skilled.

If you're talking about predators out there that just want to kill or harm people, then ofcourse no training in the world will prepare anyone. It will come down to survival skills.

Survival skills can be learned, but you have to look pretty hard for a place that can teach you them. But, as you said, someone who wants to simply kill or severely harm you is extremely difficult to protect yourself from.

First of all, the average person isn't as prepared for combat as the average martial artist.

I agree, but the average person isn't going to try to kill you in a fight either.

Second of all, the tough guys you mentioned are not as tough as martial artists within the same ranks — professional boxers, NHB guys etc...

Not many people are as tough as professional full-contact sport fighters. Just beacause you're not tougher doesn't mean that you won't win though. Not by a long shot.

The rare tough guy that can handle MA students doesn't dissuade the fact that MA training is vital for combat.

I know a few of untrained people who could go down to any of the local trad MA places and 'teach' the instructor (note: they could not do this to the local boxing coach; maybe the MMA guy). I don't believe that martial arts training is vital. Sure, it can help, but attitude, a very few techniques that you have down pretty good, and the will to use them to hurt the opponent in any way possible will get you further than just training with your buddies and sparring. The toughest people you will ever meet would probably laugh at you if you asked them what style they practiced. It all comes down to who you are training for: they drunk a-hole at the bar who wants to fight you because you looked at his girlfriend the wrong way, or the 250 lb mesomorph on PCP who wants to hurt/kill you because he can.

Would Ali had become a better fighter had he simply stayed a street brawler? I think not.

Absoultely not. You're correct. I don't think that anyone could step into the ring against a top pro and hold their own very well with no training whatsoever.

[dkm]

All this "real fighting" versus "martial arts fighting" makes me think about an incident that took place in NY last week where a bouncer who was over 6 foot tall and huge was stabbed by 2 little guys who were less than 5'7". Would it really have made a difference what sort of a background the bouncer had (i.e. street fighting or martial arts)? The end result would have probably been the same. If you are an advocate of a real fighting system, then be sure to include real knives, guns, and other weapons in the competitions

No amount of real fighting can prepare you for what your enemy on the street has for you. In the competition ring, you may be thinking that you are fighting in a reality based situation, but you know for a fact that the other person has no weapons and that he does not have a few friends in the background waiting to pounce on you once the fight goes to the ground.

Having said that, I realize that most people do not carry weapons with them and that's where your reality based fighting would come into play. However, do you have a sure method of knowing whether the enemy is carrying a weapon or not?

As far as multiple attackers are concerned, what art teaches you to handle them? Not boxing, not grappling, etc etc. So why not just accept your fighting system as a way to better yourself on the assumption that you are against one person who has no weapons.

P.S. this post was not directed towards anyone particular

[briggfoot]

i agree with Ryan Hall

not many self defence courses teach about the pre-fight stuff that is going on in your attackers and your mind.

the first time i got in a fight in town i didnt understand what was happening inside me.
in a boxing ring i could have taken any on any of my attackers no problem, and i should think i was alot fitter than they were.
but they had real fights for fun.
as soon as it all kicked off i pretty much "froze" from mistaking adrenaline for fear and i was totally incapable of attacking back.
and before i knew it i was out of the game.
they were streetfighters, probably without a days formal training between them.
since then ive read up abit about the adrenaline and that and have stopped feeling bad at myself for not fighting back.

if you stick a world class boxer in a wrestling ring against an amateur wrestler of course the wrestler will win. i was a boxer in the street arena and they were totally at home in the street so they won.

i think martial arts training CAN help as long as you learn to cope with the mental side. thats where i went totally wrong, i could have beaten the lot of them in the arena i was used to but here i felt like a duck out of water.

since then i have also studied some aikido that was meant to be self defence based. recently i got into another fight when i was out biking in a park. i tried some of these punch blocks that i had learnt and soon realized that they were shit, the guy that had taught us them had never been in a fight outside the dojo and had never tested these moves to see whether they would work against some monster who wasnt a cooperative. oh f u c k this i cant be assed to type
andy

[Tom Yum]

Its a whole different game out there. Chances are the guy will be really tough or you will walk through him. And how do you defend against chairs, beer bottles, knives or a gun? Chances are if you hurt the guy bad enough, either his friends will jet off or they will all dogpile you with whatever they have fists, boots, chair etc. throw drinks on you, spit, pull your shirt up and tee off, pull out a gun.

The point of using ma for self-defense is to get yourself out of the situation ASAP. You probably don't want to go to the ground and if you do, better to figure out how to get to your feet because most trouble comes in packs. I protected a friend of mine from getting possibly beaten to death and the only reason I escaped unscathed is because the leader of the gang was the one that had the balls. We were seriously outnumbered 3-8. This kid leader was huuuge and threw alot of fists, but they were sloppy and all arm. Foot jab sent him into his friends arms and we got the heck out of there.

[Great Sage]

I think some of you are really missing the whole point of martial arts training... If it were as useless as you propose, why would professional fighters invest their time and effort? Training is preparation for situations in which you cannot simulate adequately. It doesn't necessarily mean that you will always prevail in a street confrontation, but it will at least prepare you in some sense as opposed to not training at all.

A guy that has a tough guy mentality but doesn't train on the bag will not hit as hard as someone who continually hits a heavy bag. That doesn't make the trainee tougher, but it will improve his chances in a confrontation.

I disagree with Ryan... The discipline in the martial arts e.g. judo, boxing etc... is necessary for survival when you are in an uncontrolled environment. You must seek to control what you can. The techniques while not 100% effective will have some effect if honed properly. In an uncontrolled fight where you have the disadvantage of strength, viciousness and tenacity, simply trying to struggle using rage isn't going to cut it. You must control your opponent and find a way to escape.

[ryanhall]

The discipline in the martial arts e.g. judo, boxing etc... is necessary for survival when you are in an uncontrolled environment. You must seek to control what you can. The techniques while not 100% effective will have some effect if honed properly. In an uncontrolled fight where you have the disadvantage of strength, viciousness and tenacity, simply trying to struggle using rage isn't going to cut it. You must control your opponent and find a way to escape.

I don't recall saying anything about rage. You totally underestimate the effect that a person who truly wants to kill you or put you in the hospital has on your mentality. It's a little unsettling. As far as dicipline goes, it can help. Just because you let the good 'ol killer instinct take over doesn't mean that you throw your training out the window. You have to train with the mentality that you will fight with. Try the old WW II maxim 'hit with hate.'

Have you ever seen a real fight between people who are trying their best to really hurt one another? There's not a lot of generalship going on. When you have the disadvantage in strength, viciousness, and tenactiy, you are in pretty sad shape. Hit first, hard, fast, and repeatedly. That's pretty much your best and only bet.

If it were as useless as you propose, why would professional fighters invest their time and effort?

Why do professional basketball players invest all that time and effort in bettering their game? It's not because they get spiritual enlightenment out of it. It's called money. Professional athletes make a lot of it. Hence the large amounts of time and effort that they expend making themselves the best. Additionally, I didn't say that their training was useless, just that it was not necessarily going to allow them to beat their untrained or minimally trained opponent. Have you ever seen two world class boxers get into it at one of the pre-fight press conferences? It's all hugging and haymakers. Where's all that ring skill?

A guy that has a tough guy mentality but doesn't train on the bag will not hit as hard as someone who continually hits a heavy bag. That doesn't make the trainee tougher, but it will improve his chances in a confrontation.

Martial artists aren't the only people who own and/or train on a heavy bag. You're not going to be getting into a streetfight with a pissed off desk jockey. The person may be tougher than you in more ways than one.

[jukado1]

Street fights are man or men to man confertations, most of us with some training will do fairly well agienst most people on the streets, but what about a (streetfighter) like a tank abbot who can bench press 500 lbs. and can totaly commit on the street? can any martial artest hang with him? Yes, but their going to be one of the best fighters around, because any fight is still man to man, without any training how would you like to face an oppenent like tank abbot, your odds would be 100% to 0% to lose! but with training, effective training, not kata, not walking up and down the mat doing upward block and reverse punch type training, but logical effective training, you might have a chance to survive, mind you not much of a chance, but more then if you've never done anything, and you know nothing. always try to better your odds,

[Guest]

I think the whole concept of "We do martial arts so we'll have the advantage in the street" is so wrong. There are a few different categories of martial arts techniques and training methods.

1. Those which are totally impractical.
2. Those that may make you a bit fitter, but are basically impractical.
3. Those which suit the sporting arena within which you compete, but leave you wide open in a no rules confrontation.
4. Those which are excellent for sports AND no rules confrontations.
5. Those which are purely for the street.

Most martial artists kid themselves. They train in 1, 2 and 3, but think they are preparing themselves for a real fight. They train in ways that will get them killed. They actually DE-train for the street. High kicks, twisty wristy throws, Karate "blocks", fancy submissions..... All of these will get you head butted, eye gouged, bitten and stabbed.

They have no appreciation or training in awareness and pre fight strategies. They think that hitting first is "unfair". They have no appreciation of the adrenalin dump. So when the shit hits the fan all their training flies out of the window and, if they survive, they become black belts in making excuses.

Most of all they hide what they know to be the truth from themselves - that they can't really fight. Don't think I'm having a go, I did this for years. When you've invested so much of your time, enerygy and commitment into an art the last thing you want to do is admit that you've been going in the wrong direction.

You'll either learn or you won't. Good luck.

[Toudiyama]

Bri, I think the adrenaline or rather the reaction to high doses of it may be the key.
Some people can feel really sick of it, in small doses they feel fine
(or is it negative and positive adrenaline?)

For myself during the prefight seconds the adrenaline makes me go through all kinds of possibilities and prepares my body to fight (and my brain too) in that case I'm really hyped, if nothing happens after that, it takes at least 5 min before my pulse goes down

But I had a student around 40 years old who got sick and hype of the adrenaline 2 weeks in advance of a tournament or exam
People like that react different in a real fight than you and I

reason for not attacking first isn't something that is learned because the japanese told us so but because the law tells us so
Following a story what happened to me when I was 18.
together with a couple of guys we were at the beach, one went to buy an icecream (bare with me it's a bit long) and all of a sudden came running by followed by a guy from our city(bad reputation) and again came by(running around in circles) the third time I step inbetween and tell the guy to leave it for another time because this is a packed beach, the guy tries to punch me to the face, I block(I was a green or blue belt karate at the time) and I punch him to the belly, he grabs me we go to the ground, and roll around, at the moment he is on top, his brother, a guy who was 26 and a kyokushin BB for some years, grabs me lifts me( big guy) and starts pounding my face, blood runs fom my nose and nobady on a packed beach helps me, NOW guess what the police tells me when I wanted to file a complaint, "Better not do that because then the can file a complaint against you because you hit the first"It didn't matter that the other attacked first, I should have let him hit me first
The Boys who beatup a guy that robbed the supermarket and hen threatened them when they stopped him got fined 800 euro (which our Prins Bernard payed for them) and on top of that the robber tried a cival procedure to get 2000 euro from the boys or the supermarket
Jeweler that got robbed at gunpoint 4 X in a short while buys himslf a gun and the fifth time shoots the robbers, one dies, his punishment will be higher than the punishment of a robber killing a jeweler

Karate ni sentenashi, there is no first attack in karate, should be explained very loose, when the oponent has the intention to atack the karateka kan attack without breaking that rule
The laws in my country doesn't allow that, I need to be hit first ( yeah right, Tyson please hit me first)

Judges often rule that a Martial Artist should have know better and limited the amount of violence

[Guest]

I do not know of your laws, but do know my own (England/Wales). Even people here think that the law does not allow them to hit first. But it does. As long as you can display to reasonable people that someones conduct put you in fear of being assaulted, you can hit first.

Evidence such as his shouting, swearing, threatening, pursuing you ec. all help prove it.

[DRLashambe]

I’m really glad I started this thread! While everyone’s opinions are unlikely to change dramatically, the discussion itself has been incredible. It’s probably the case that the right answer here lies in some combination of the extreme views. I was speaking with my trainer, and, in his opinion, I was too far to one side of the argument. In his view, I was using my experience as one of a “typical” martial artist, and as many of you have pointed out, that’s inaccurate. I’ve only trained in two arts: Muay Thai, and my trainer’s system, which he designed to be realistic because of the failure of traditional martial arts fighters in “real” situations. Also, what I considered “light” sparring apparently is not. I failed to realize that sparring with protection on is not what other arts mean by sparring. Also, the system that he is teaching is fairly simple compared to most (a mix of Muay Thai striking and blocking with Wing Chun trapping for close range, and BJJ grappling for the ground), and he doesn’t make any money from his dojo. What he tells me is that he had every complaint about martial arts training that you guys do, and he tried to overcome it when he began teaching.
I think, in an attempt to broaden our discussion, I’ll start a thread about how untrained fighters fight, and look for some feedback on realistic ways to defend ourselves against them.

[da_mill]

unfortunately, Ive seen 2 fights in 2 days.

The first one, involved a lot of bottles flying, and basically dicks that were just idiots, so move on from that.

The 2nd was basically someone trying to start trouble, people getting mouthy, someone throwing a punch, someone hitting back, etc the obvious i'm sure we've all seen it.

Perhaps my experience is "misplaced" cos i haven't seen as many fights as some of you guys but what I noticed is that in all cases, a brawl occurs - due to heart racing fighting adrenaline stuff.

It ended up with two guys grabbing, kicking, jump kicking, swinging, wrestling, whatever, until they got pulled apart. From my own training and mentality, I know (or hope) that my instinct would kick in - I probably wouldn't be as controlled as I'd like, but as long as I channeled my brain the right way I woudl still be "there" and able to recall what I'd wanna do, even in basic form - eg slip and get out of the way of punches, hit hard and fast to targets that I'd want to hit, and basically keep hitting until it's over. (I don't know if this is "right" or not, but I'm pretty sure Id just keep throwing combinations until it was over lol - right or wrong?)

However, as I just said - when fights break out people just brawl, fair enough I would be high on adrenaline, but I would still punch hard and fast, and be thinking about what I was doing - I'd only be able to do that for probably a second before I was grabbed or wrestled or whatever (call it a crowded room where things were kicking off) There I feel more of my training would come thru, instintively throwing knees & elbows and trying to be as devastating as possible. As long as you are still calm enough to cope and think, you can recall what you need to know?

On the other hand, being at school, I've often seen loads of "arranged fights" eg. "meet me afterschool you punk" kinda stuff. In these kinds of things, it's much more of a "fight fight" no grabbing screaming jumping etc that happend in the "brawl", but people going in with a cool head, standing off for a while, throwing punches, looking for openings.

Have you ever seen a real fight between people who are trying their best to really hurt one another?

Like I said again it might be down to my personal experience, but wen fight A kicks off in a big brawl style, theyre trying to hurt each other cos they are "mad" and hate each other. With an organised fight peole have had time ot think and clear their heads - they still wanna hurt each other but they realise that jumping around violently grabbing and kicking is a different way of going aabout it.

[Guest]

The problem with striking arts (and I practice one, so I'm not having a go at anyone) is that very few of them train to cope with the guy who grabs you, pushes and pulls you violently all over the place (destroying your balance) and simultaneously punches at you.

The last fight I saw was like this. It really brought home to be the harsh reality of a real fight.

[DRLashambe]

Bri Thai:

Absolutely. One of the things we train for in my gym (probably because we're in Canada, so feel free to laugh at the stereotype), is a "hockey scrap." In hockey, because you're on skates, you grab your opponent's sweater with one hand to hold yourself up, and you swing like hell with the other hand. I've seen dozens of fights outside of hockey rinks where both guys ending doing exactly this. Of course, it's also really effective to pull a guys sweater (shirt, jacket, whatever) over his head.