anyone do Shukokai karate?

[unknown warrior]

Just curious to see if anyone does.

[Guest]

I trained it from something like 1981 to 1984 ish. Got to 1st Kyu Brown Belt.

95% of it (at least) was bollocks, but it did give me a hard straight right punch, front kick and roundhouse kick.

[Toudiyama]

Bri, it is supposed to be related to Shitoryu, did you ever see Shito guys and if so how do they compare?

Oh saw their claims on selfdefence and then I do understand the dislike of some people towards karate

[Guest]

As I understood it Shitoryu (or Tani-Ha Shitoryu) was just another name for Shukokai. But, then again, even in clubs of the same name they do things a little differently.

Shukokai did work towards developing hard strikes in a time when you could get a Karate Black Belt after hitting nothing but thin air. So it probably was one of the best styles.

But it still had loads of twaddle in it.

[Toudiyama]

Shitoryu and Shukokai as a substyle of it have 60 kata the most of any karatestyle
Seeing how good most Shito karateka are they can't spend much time on kumite
I've read somewwhere that after Wado it is the second fastest style

How difficult was the switch to other MA?

[Guest]

The difficulty was finding something worth doing.

I was in Shukokai, and training for 1st Dan Black Belt. But I had to be honest with myself and admit that most of it was bollocks. I didn't bother with the grading. I didn't want to be another fake black belt who couldn't really do it for real.

I tried to get into Wing Chun, but the instructors were prime wankers. All ego and money grabbing (sorry swan, no offence). So I left them.

I tried Jiu Jitsu, but the Gracie style was unknown in the UK back then. I was all twisty wristy nonsense, and would only work if your partner let it. Once again I left. Although the two instructors were nice guys, the "World Jiu Jitsu Federation" that they were a part of was a big fraud. One guy went to Japan to train with the Master who had signed his certificate. Except that this Master had never heard of the W.J.J.F., and they had faked it. The two top guys then ran off, with the money!

After a while totally out of the game I tried to get into Thai Boxing. But finding good instruction locally was hard. Guy number 1 often didn't bother turning up for the class, so some snot nosed teenager (who I could easily beat) would take over and try to sound tough. The instructor then got himself locked up for dealing drugs. What a knob.

I left to train with a guy called Bill who seemed well hard, though he was a bit fat for a Thai instructor. But all Bill did was smack his students around (including me) but then NOT give them hints and ideas on where they were going wrong. I'm all for tough training, as long as it is just that - training.

Lastly I went to a local sports centre. But this was a mixed adults and kids class, and we often spent the first third of the class warming up by playing kids games. It was embarrassing. People would come to watch the class, then watch us play ball tick for half an hour. They left...... And so did I.

In the mid 90s I bumped into an old Shukokai colleague. He had also got fed up with it, but had branched out into JKD. Here is his web site www.maxt.co.uk He is an excellent grappler and, after seeing UFC, that is all I wanted to do anyway. I never really bothered with the rest of JKD as it is too weapons oriented for me. But I no longer train with him for personal reasons, not to be discussed here.

But when I discovered Combatives it felt like I had finally found my martial home. It is simple, no frills, brutal fighting. I don't want to fight people, but if they give me no choice I'd rather win. And Combatives gives me the best chance to do just that, rather than twirl sticks, high kicks or arm bars etc. I have trained with a guy called Dennis martin, who is well respected by people in the Combatives world. But I now mostly train with my weights, punchin bags and Spar Pro. I'm not training to fight in the ring. I'm training to explode all over someone if they back me into a corner and give me no other choice, so the niceties of sparring aren't really relevant to me.

Phew. What am I prattling on about? To answer your question - switching martial arts was hard, but for the wrong reasons. Once I found the art I wanted, the few (very few) useful things I picked up along the way fit right in. So, in the sense you mean, it was actually very easy.

[darrianation]

I went from wado to MT to shito. I didn’t think shito was whole lot different than wado at the time but now I look back on it there were a lot of subtle differences. My shito instructor (Miki in San Diego) was a lot better than my wado instructor was but as far as the systems go I think I’m more partial to wado.

However I still have a hell of a time keeping my karate out of my MT. I’m still finding my self using certain karate techniques in MT like side kicks and sinning back kicks and every now and then a back fist. I have done martial arts for 26 years and I wish all 26 years were spent in MT. Of course some grappling would be good too. I guess I am saying one striking system and one grappling system (or a system that employs both) is better than running around to all these different systems/styles (can’t become an expert at any of them). I moved around a lot (can’t seem to stay anywhere more than a couple of years before I need to move on). Anyway this is my opinion. For some people it takes a lot of different systems to find the one that’s right for them. I left wado after 5 yrs to do MT. The only reason I did other arts (other than MT) was because in the places I lived MT wasn’t always available. So I went with another Ma that was available. I have also studied uechi, Chinese kenpo, and arnis. Muay Thai is my favorite! Second to that would be wado.

And big "D" your right we spent a whole lot more time on kata in shito but we did spar too.

[Toudiyama]

Both replies and my own experience tell me that karate if nothing else is a solid base to start from when taking up other mainly kick and punch arts

one of the reasons why it losts its effectiveness is because the path has been stretched out, in the beginning it was possible to become a master in 2-5 years depending on the system
Now we don't even thrust people attaning that level in such a short time, for one because almost no-one can put the time in it
where people like Ohtsuka had all the time and the financial backing you could wish for
But even they went to train somewhere else when they found their present training lacking, they trained with other okinawan masters while staying with Funakoshi
Like Us they were jusst never satisfied with what they know, they had a hunger for new information

There is few that bores me when it comes to MA
Come to think of it: please tell me Shukokai isn't the style that does the recoil thing before punching.
I once rented an instructional (early 80's)which showed the reecoil action at the beginning of the tape, got so bored with that, that I didn't even watch it any further ( yeah rright lets show the opponent you're gonna punch)

[Guest]

What your talking about is the double hip. It was developed by some guy called Kimura. Go here -

http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/blackbelt/1970/jun70/cas.html

Basically it means that you start with your hips square to the opponent. Just before you begin your right (for example) reverse punch you snap the right side of your hip back, and then forwards again. The punch "rides" on the forward movement of the hip, and this double hip twist is supposed to improve power.

Cricketers in the olden days used to stand with the bat on the floor. As the ball was bowled to them they would snap it back, and then forwards to strike the ball. It is a similar idea. However, as bowlers got super fast they found that they did not have enough time to perform this double movement, so they now stand with the bat held behind them, already "cocked".

Kimura's striking power was legendary. He believed in using body mass so much that he purposefully grew a big gut in order to have more weight to thro behind the technique.

But my Shukokai instructor had stopped using the double hip prior to me joining. People were developing bad backs because of it (which they called "Shukokai back") and, like cricketers, you can still develop power by holding the fist already cocked. And, like you say, it does tae a little longer to get the hit home, and so is a little telegraphed.

As for Karate being a good base from which to learn other arts I am not so sure. I have had to work hard to get rid of many bad habits that Karate gave me. For example, we would never kick below the waist, so any mid level kick could be blocked by Gedan Barai, which is a low sweeping action of the arm. I drilled that move so much that I was rarely caught by these kicks, and it still automatically just happens even today when I'm kicked at. But my Thai friemds used to think it was a god send. Either my gedan barai would totally miss their kick to my thighs (as the arms just aren't long enough to reach it) or they would convert a low kick into a high kick mid flow, and knock my head around a bit.

I do rate the original Okinawan Karate. The kind filed with fingers in the eyes, choips to the throat, elbows to the temple, knees to the groin and kicks to the knees etc. But I think you will find that very hard to find.

[unknown warrior]

Sensei Kimura developed Shukokai and now it is almost completely different from the Tani-ha shito-ryu Shukokai. The double hip technique has been proven to be the most powerfull technique in the martial arts world. You may disagree with this and call Shukokai crap but infact it IS one of the fastest styles in the world and certainly is the most powerful style because of its higher stances and training in plyometrics. The association im with (samurai karate international) practices 49 kata from naha-te, shuri-te and some tomari-te. My instructor is sensei Tom Beardsley who is 4 times world kata champion and was on the England squad for years. He is now a 6th dan and the chief instructor for samurai karate international in Europe.

[Toudiyama]

I'm not shure if the tape I saw was Shukokai, It didn't mention the hip, but only recoiled the arm at the start of the technique
At that point you are telegaphing the attack

when the hip is used, it can generate a lot more power even if the movement is very subtle, I attended a Yosheikan Budo seminar once, All big judo guys except for me, he let us punch eatchother to the chest with 5 judojackets folded and stacked, not one of us was able to do much, now comes Mochizuki a small japanese guy and he does a backfist from a few inches, stretched out arm and he knocked the air out of us.
Yosheikan Budo is based on a wavemotion of the hips, seen from that perpective there is a resemblance between judo trows and karatekicks for instance uchi mata and ushiro mawashi geri (one without turn)

[Guest]

unknown warrior - you can claim all you want about Shukokai. I have been there and done it, and I saw Black Belts who could not fight for peanuts. Sure, they could hit an impact pad reasonably hard (some of them could......) but the rest of it was nonsense.

Think. No grappling. No low kicks. Unrealistic blocking. Only hand strikes being punches. There are so many rules that you condition yourself NOT to be able to fight in the street.

Thinking of it, the only guys I respected as fighters from Shukokai were all people who trained in other arts also. Guess what? They all left Shukokai behind.

[unknown warrior]

shukokai does have throws and low kicks. combination 4d is a perfect example of low kicks. whoever your instructor was he/she didnt teach very well. Remember the real training starts at black belt. The first three dan grads are still classed as novice in the japanese way of thinking. I garantee that there is much more to shukokai than u saw.

[Crouchtig]

real training starts at black belt?

BOLLOX

unknown warrior you are surely the most misinformed and indoctrinated person here

you are wrong

your teachers have lied to you

think: your teachers taught you that you need to stay way beyond black belt to learn anything = you stay longer = they get more money

wake up and smell the bull****

next time someone says something think: "why are they telling me this? how does it help them? do they have any evidence to support their claims? basically: it it reliable?"

[Toudiyama]

Crouchtig:

what is actually meant is that you are still a beginner when you reach BB level, from that poibnt on you have enough basics to work from, that it now takes years before one reaches BB level tells more about how we are training than anything else, If you train 6 days a week 4 or 5 hours a day you will reach that level within a few months, but then people find this suspect, they think you can't reach that level in such a short time

Actually it is 1st and 2nd is beginner 3rd and 4th is intermidiate and 5th is highest technical grade in most traditional styles
Most of us who do traditional styles like karate tend to train 2-4 hours a week which is just not enough to quickly attain BB level
(it took me 6 years which is normal to short in my country)