anyone do Shukokai karate?

[Crouchtig]

so its not the system thats at fault its the way we are using it.

unkown warrior why are you doing ma?

if its self defence then i would sugest changing style

if its "to make you a better person" or "to improve you chi" then give up, neither of these things can be obtained through learning to fight (which is what martial arts are)

[Guest]

Originally posted by unknown warrior
shukokai does have throws and low kicks. combination 4d is a perfect example of low kicks. whoever your instructor was he/she didnt teach very well. Remember the real training starts at black belt. The first three dan grads are still classed as novice in the japanese way of thinking. I garantee that there is much more to shukokai than u saw.

Nah. They're just adding bits on as time goes by. So many inadequate systems do this. It's like TKD claiming to have grappling.........

[Toudiyama]

Bri: if Shukokai is not too much Japanized and remains it's Okinawan Shito character, it should favor kicks below the waistline.
I'm amazed that at 1st kyu level, and it doesn't sound like they were giving grades away, you weren't exposed to takedowns
Or did I take your post wrong?

I think that adding stuff later at least show the insight that something is lacking

IF a claim of selfdefence is laid, an art can't stay the same, times change people change, possible attacks change

In the 19th century best that you could come across as far as MA, was boxing, and that wasn't the boxing we know now( in france you did have the risk of getting kicked too: savate)
If more and more people would attack others by doing a shoot followed by ground and pound, then eventualy someone will come with the perfect countersystem for that

MMA events show this clearly, if you know your oponents way of fight, you can find the weak spots and use those or train against the favourite techniques of the opponent
Fighters who are good at escaping or avoiding submissions, generally do wel against Brazilian fighters
Fighters who can take a punch or better a beating and still go on, will do well against kick/punchers
Emelianenko Fedor vs Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira at Pride 25 shows a submissionfighter being able to punch and a puncher being master at escaping any submission hold, I call him master because you are if you can escape Nogueira's submissions even though you put yourself on purpose into the guard him

[Guest]

No technique below the belt line (except Ashi Barai, foot sweep) was ever even contemplated.

Basically it was a mix of the following:-

Impact Pad training. But in a stiff an unrealistic way.

Useless kata.

Marching up and down punching and kicking thin air and

Playing a game of tag, lovingly called "sparring".


All hand techniques were closed fist. In fact there were only three. Lead hand punch, reverse punch and then stepping through punch (the one where the guy would have to be blind not to see you coming).

All the blocks were ridiculously big movements which would never work in our "sparring".

We trained loads of different kicks. We spun about like idiots. I remember one guy was very good at foot-sweeps. Every time I tried to kick I would end up on my arse. And there was no mat (ouch). But I carried on trying to kick. Why? Because karate is about impressive hich kicking, right? Wrong. But way too much of the karate world has it wrong also.

I remember trying to use the punch bag that was there. The only people that could do it had trained boxing also. Those of us that tried to hit it in the "correct" way just couldn't, as we had to have the distance perfect for our admittedly hard reverse punch to have any effect. But the bag kept moving. We all must have hoped that a real opponent would be more obliging and stand still!

Grappling? No way on this planet was grappling in the Shukokai that I was taught. And my instructor was graded to 3rd dan under Kimura himself. Mind you, it was in the early and mid 80s, befoe the Gracies taught us all such valuable lessons.

[Toudiyama]

Sounds like Shukokai was really japanized.

When kickboxing was introduced we were reminded by one of our teachers that a low mawashi geri with the shin (low kick) were also practiced in Wado karate and part of early karatematches in Japan and re-introduced it to the students of ou club
Anything that is or was part of the art I want to know about and anybody I teach should know about because only than can one understand it truely
A 1st kyu at our school would know almost all single techniques and most pre-arranged kumiteforms even though the "federal" black belt only asked for a few of both only for kata they had to know what the BB tests ask
We liked to expose our students to different stuff
Seems like your teacher was the opposite

If you can ever look in to a seminar of Patrick McCarthy then do so, it might givee all those years of karatetraining still some meaning, showing that a lot of the techniques in the Kata have been changed in such a way that strikes have become blocks and grabling moves also have been changed unrecognisionably

[Guest]

Fair enough.

One thing we can both agree on. Shukokai people can hit very hard!

[Toudiyama]

Well I now understand your point of view much better
If this is also what you came across in your area, it's no wonder you became a little bit resentive against Karate

For Karate's sake I hope that you are so unlucky to have crap teachers in the area instead of my being lucky to have good teachers in the area

[Nick]

...

I'm glad I found the teacher I did. He teaches traditional stuff, but also stuff that works and makes sure we know the difference between the two.

Later...

[Guest]

The frustration for me is that Karate could be so good (admittedly, maybe it is where you train). There are so many strikes with the hand that are better than just "Jodan Zsuki" etc, as well as elbows, knees and low kicks. Instead we did as I have previously outlined.

I saw other clubs too, from other styles. And much of it was in a similar vein. I'm not sure that it was me who was unlucky to see this diluted Karate. I suspect that it is you that is lucky. See the difference?

[Toudiyama]

Not unlucky to see diluted karate but to have trained in it
Unlucky because you didn't get a teacher like mine
most of my teachers can make a joke about themself

Rob Zwartjes was amaster in it, small man not very muscular with small round specs ( a teacher of match )
He told us that he was sparring a big guy (almost 2 m) and managed to kick him to the head, he felt so lucky and felt like id you see that?, then gets spacked in the face by a punch
This is how he illustrated that you have to keep paying attention at all times
As a joke he would say that to test things he would goto a child playing in the sand and try it on them

[unknown warrior]

Toudiyama, thankyou you are perhaps the only martial artist here that understands true karate-do and Budo in generall. I have read your posts with an open mind and i can honestly say that i respect you as a martial artist.

[Crouchtig]

hey i respect toudiyama too

thats not fair

toudiyama you must talk to unkown warrior
he is deluded and mistaken about many things

only your wisdom can help him now (combined with a few insults by me perhaps?)

[Toudiyama]

I'm not wise, I'm just so naïve that I think everything offered to me can teach me something
Even when I know the technique taught to me is useless, I have learned something ( that this is useless)
I do not think there is one MA that is a godsent gift( and that from an atheist)
I know what's wrong with any art I practiced and even from the syles I didn't practice but did study I can see where they are flawed

As people have seen I react to the generalization of Karate or of any art that has multiple styles because I do not like generalisations.
The world might become a global vilage but with a different church on every corner preaching "his or her truth"
Meaning the streets in La can't be compared to those in London(or Manchester) and the streets in London can't be compared to the streets in Amsterdam(let alone Zaandam where I live)
Because of this reason for training are different and the way people train is different
Long live the difference (I didn't dare to put that sentence in french )
I'm open to anyone who is open himself

[Toudiyama]

Correction on history

I do not know if it was in this thread or some other, but I have stated that Karate was simplified because it was introduced onto the Highschools as preperation for the military.
This is mixup of facts, Karate was looked at as an addition to Judo and Kendo and supposed to have been introduced onto the Highschools but it wasn't because at that time the system was too complex and took longer than the highschooltime to master
Later Yatsutsune"Anko" Itosu had the idea to introduce it onto the highschools as a fysical excercise, because of that he took out the most dangerous techniques and limited it to basics and forms without the bunkai, the explanation of the sequences and without the kyusho(pressurepoints) and torite/tuite (grabling) part, this is what was introduced to the mainland of Japan and got spread.
Only those styles which founders went to Okinawa to train under several other teachers have managed to regain some of what was lost
If the allied forces hadn't disbanned the Butokukai at the end of WW II we might have had, no would have had a unified karate, as it is the efford to come to this never has been picked up again because bickering between people, schools and styles
A unified Karate might have been complete again

PS
I made a point in the opinions thread about allowing for variance
I recently started reading the bubishi translated and commented by Patrick McCarthy, this book is a book dealing with the principles of white crane quanfa (this is how they write it in the book) and one of the principles is that training and excecution is adjusted to the abilities of the student
Seeing that the Bubishi was a guidebook for the old masters, this wisdom must have been lost somewhere along the road exept to those seeking out the old knowledge (Okinawa again)

At page 66 it states:"be shure to practice acording to your teacher's advice and ALWAYS be a open to learn the ways of others. It takes a long time to achieve perfection based on your experience. Do not be in a hurry; patience is a virtue

[HengYu]

1980's Shukukai In Hereford.

Whilst researching various aspects of the martial arts, I came across this forum and this thread. I was at college in Hereford between 1984-88 and trained under Sensei Tom Beardsley at the Hinton Leisure Centre three nights aweek and Sunday mornings. In the winter, the place could be freezing! Essentially, the Dojo was just outside of Hereford's town centre, and had two halls, a smaller one for regular training, and a larger one for special occasions. At that time, Beardsley was assisted by a number of black belts, Andy Smith, Howard and one or two others, including 'Bob', who is now famous for being one of the SAS troopers who stormed the Iranian Embassey in 1980! That particular time saw an influx in people training in martial arts, particularly in Hereford. Some of the young men were part of 'R' Squadron, the reserve squadron of the 22nd SAS regiment based near-by.

So that was the setting when I discovered Shukakai. I wanted a place to work-out and spar - as I already trained in a family style of Chinese gongfu. When I started, the classes were relatively small, compared to what they would become. About ten people in a beginner's class, and ten people in an advanced class. Eventually this would double and triple over-time, as Shukukai became ever more popular. The stances were moderately high. Nowhere as deep as Shotokan, but lower than Wado Ryu. What is interesting, is that the older version of Shukukai had the 'double hip' twist in it, but by the time I encountered it, the 'double hip' had been modified. Instead of the hip starting square and then pulling back, before shooting forward, the new version involved the hip 'already' pulled-back, in what was called the 'on-guard' position. Apparently, this is what use to distinguish the two different styles of Shukukai from one another-the Shukukai Karate Union still used the old 'double hip' method, whereas the Shukukai Karate Federation, (Beardsley's group), practiced the new improved version, which was instigated by sensei Kimura - the head of the style whom I trained with briefly when he visited the UK. This speeded the techniques-up. The hip was instrumental in the style's basic technique, and the power was tested on foam pads held by students. The technique was impressive, as complete beginners could virtually double their power in a short space of time. Sparring was disappointing. Techniques were pulled, despite the wearing of sparring mits and shin guards. Techniques to the head were not encouraged. Katas were changed virtually every week, to 'look better' for competition judges. This led to them being watered down. I left in the late 1980's, just as Shukukai was beginning to fall apart. All vestage of tradition had disappeared in the drive to make money and win competitions.

Kimura died in the mid-190's, but I heard rumours that he dis-associated himself from the SKF because of their sport motiff, whereas he was really interested in power development and mind and body exploration. Beardsley re-invented himself - and a group of Shukukai black belts got together and founded the Kimura International Karate Association, claiming that they alone now represent Kimura's original teaching.

I think the power-development aspect of Kimura was spot-on, but the style would not have held its own in the ring or full-contact arena. The basic guard was wide open, despite being powerful, but the head was never a target, and therefore never 'defended'! Couple this with the fact that there was virtually 'NO' body conditoning in the entire style, and one is left thinking about how long a Shukukai practitioner would last having to take continuous full-powered shots - not long, I would imagine!