BJJ - should you be taken down?

[Crouchtig]

time to interupt this complex argument with with one of my simple opinions:

if you learn wrestling then you learn to grapple wrestlers
if you learn boxing then you learn to punch boxers

if you learn a stlye that is a mixture you learn to do both these things and you also learn to grapple boxers and punch wrestlers.

ive been playng the UFC game recently
in the game a master of groundfighting will usualy beat a master of striking

but the game isnt that realistic (the kung fu style is better than the kickboxing style)

the UFC itself does not represtent real life: no multiple opponents, no weapons, no objects, no means of escape (probably the most important thing in real life). and theve got a referee to make sure no one uses any moves that are "against the rules"

UFC is a sport, not real life. real life has no ring, no rules and no referee

still a good game though (the groundfighting system seems to be quite realistic. makes me want to learn BJJ)

[Tom Yum]

Chris, you are referring to an art that encompasses techniques that can be applied at all ranges of fighting? You mention jiujitsu as a style that encompasses principles that can be used at all ranges. Xing Yi Quan (Prounounced Shing Yee Chuan) is a very old martial art. The stance training is said to be good for balance, posture but also body mechanics (??) I have only seen its techniques demonstrated; don't they use alot of palm strikes, parrying, slipping and rolling - it looks like boxing with palm strikes, but with the entire body (groin up) as targets and alot of evasion (slipping).

True that you can apply a concept like the center line and use it effectively on the ground and it will work; I don't disagree. But there are Chinese martial arts that are better suited for close quarter combat like Qin Na (Cheen Nah) and Kuai Jiao (Kway jeeow).

Qin Na is the art of "grabbing and seizing" it is the mother of aikijustsu, but more brutal. Each derivation gets less brutal-aikijiujitsu-jiujitsu-judo-aikido etc. I've heard that the PROC special forces train in qin na and are especially effective at weapons disarms. Qin na has never attained popularity, because the Chinese are sometimes perceived as xenophobic and because derivations such as judo became more popular.

Kuai Jiao is the art of "fast wrestling". I haven't done my homework on this one, but I believe the manchurians (Northern Chinese Mongols) developed this system. Remember how effective Genghis Khans army was? The Mongols were known for their wrestling superiority.

[DRLashambe]

I'm going to try and start another controversy here. There's time to learn how to use multiple arts effectively and be good at all of them; you just have to learn from trainers who focus on results. My trainer uses the warm-up period to practice hitting hard and fast. We learn as many as three new grappling techniques in a class, we work them until we have the form right, and then we practice using them with real matches (with striking and grappling). When I study with my judo/BJJ trainer, I bring the techniques back to my NHB trainer, and I integrate them into what I am learning from him. The secret to this? We don't learn a hundred kicks, we learn about 4. Punches? 5. We then learn to use them in combinations, and then we practice that while being hit, and trying to fend off grapplers. Chris, I really don't know your art, it may be complete, I just haven't seen one single art yet that is. As for the idea of concepts, they aren't enough. They're great, but without learn the actual applications of them in varying circumstances, your application will be slow and uncoordinated. Applying thought out concepts to actual techniques is a good idea if the concepts are good. By themselves, concepts cannot be applied to new applications and be immediately effective.

[DRLashambe]

I'd like to throw out an example of someone who is amazing at multiple arts. I've trained with this guy, and I can tell you, holding thai pads when this guy kicks can be painful. Grappling? I'm 220 lbs, he's 138: I lasted 18 seconds in our first match, and improved to about 40 in our next matchup. He's a MMA, pankration, grappling, and thai kickboxing champ. We'll be seeing him in the UFC very soon.

http://www.ucczone.ca/eng/html/profile_mark_hominick.html

[DRLashambe]

Crouchtig:

Are you kidding? You talk about street realism and video games at the same time?

Kingston:

Your art is incredibally effective, but does have techniques for ground, stand up, close range and weapons. Your trainer has incredible legitimacy, he is the real deal. That being said, there are two guys at your school from London: Doug and Jay. Both these guys train in multiple arts. Doug trains with the same BJJ/Judo instructor as I do, and Jay is a highly skilled JKD and Arnis instructor. Maybe we could convince them to comment on this idea?

[Tom Yum]

Doc, you'd be suprised how many small looking guys can hit hard. Some people on the forum believe that you need huge muscles. Its all about technique, intensity and stamina. They won't believe it till they experience it themselves!

[chris davis 200]

The stance training is said to be good for balance, posture but also body mechanics (??) I have only seen its techniques demonstrated; don't they use alot of palm strikes, parrying, slipping and rolling - it looks like boxing with palm strikes, but with the entire body (groin up) as targets and alot of evasion (slipping).

Hsing I used primerily fists in combat but some palm stikes are used. Kicks etc are all used too.

The seven stars are the main weapons of hsing i used for striking, felling or throwing etc.

They are:
Head, Shoulder, Elbow, Hand/fist, Hip, Knee, foot.

The stepping methods of Hsing I attck the knees, Shins and hips of the opponent. There are also kicks to the midsection and head (although not heavily used).

But there are Chinese martial arts that are better suited for close quarter combat like Qin Na (Cheen Nah) and Kuai Jiao (Kway jeeow).

Chin Na is the universal term for grappling in Chinese Arts.

Hsing I, Tai Chi and Ba gua all have very developed Chin Na methods (tai chi & Ba gua the most). Many external systems also have Chin na. It is sometimes practiced as a destinct art but not often.

Hsing I is based on the 5 elements. these are translated into 5 principle movements - Or fists.

These five principles have there own coresponding movement to teach you the mechanics involved. They are then split to 12 animal forms that further teach you principles and mechanics. These forms are not like tai chi, They are quite short and only utilise a few key movements.

A martial art based on 5 principles of movement.

Chin na is not the 'mother of Aikijutsu' This is a modern term first coined by Sakaku Takeda (of Daito Ryu) in the early part of the last century. The techniques of AikiJuJutsu were based on the unarmed methods of the Aizu Warrior Clan. That art was know as oshikiuchi (a palace style of JJ). He also encoporated Sword movements.

Chin na is said to have been the for runner of JuJutsu but sumo was also supposed to be the forunner of JJ. Moist historians acept that there prabably was some cross over - But Sumo is completely indiginous to Japan. and the development from this seems more likely.

As for the effectiveness of commitment to one art. The article refers to Hsing I - This is a fairly complete art. Many others are not - through deterioration in lineage and teaching methods etc.

Even in Hsing i there are many teachers not capable of all its principles.

Cheers
Chris

[Tom Yum]

I'm interested in hearing about those "moist historians" you refer to. just teasing. Its hard to think that sumo was the predecessor to JJ. Every style of Chinese martial art has its chin na, which in many cases was studied by Japanese

Likewise, many things culturally Japanese (and sometimes Korean) were borrowed from the Chinese, when the Tang dynasty was in China's throne. People from all over Asia studied in China for many years and returned with art, clothing styles, philosophy produced from the Tang dynasty. The Okinawan people stumbled upon China during fishing excavations and learned a modified version of Kung Fu.

Another unrelated example is the Korean art of Tang Soo Do. If you go to a Tang Soo Do dojang in Korea, the characters are in Chinese. It literally means "art of the Tang hand". Just as bjj has influenced grappling in modern North America, Chinese MA has influenced Asian MA throughout history however ea art has been improved upon from its importer. Northern Chinese MA tend to kick higher than their southern counterparts. Hence the "art of the Tang hand" contains a major kicking component.

[Kingston]

Originally posted by ryanhall
. What I can do and what you can do may be very different. What Ajarn Chai can do and what I can do is also going to be quite different. What is applicable for me may be a predetermined failure for you and vice versa.

I can't even go on arguing this. It's silly.

Once again im misunderstood. You just made the same point i did .....just in different words.

i guess i need to work on my presentation.

[Kingston]

Originally posted by DRLashambe
Kingston:

Your art is incredibally effective, but does have techniques for ground, stand up, close range and weapons. Your trainer has incredible legitimacy, he is the real deal. That being said, there are two guys at your school from London: Doug and Jay. Both these guys train in multiple arts. Doug trains with the same BJJ/Judo instructor as I do, and Jay is a highly skilled JKD and Arnis instructor. Maybe we could convince them to comment on this idea?

well its not like i realy keep in touch with them, chated with them once or twice....dont realy know them.

Like i said before, there is no best or better when it comes to techniques. Only ones that work or dont. I know doug got certified to teach under Vlad lately, but both Jay (jay bell right?) and doug are still students, your always a student, why should you stop learning? MA's are about fun. If you have fun practicing JKD why stop? should you stop playing tennis if you start football? No not if you still find tennis enjoyable. Same goes for MA's.

If you master Systema is that all you need? I would say definatly. Does that mean that you cant learn knew things, or that you cant have fun practicing other MA's? No.

At least thats how i look at it.

[MrPoopy]

still a good game though (the groundfighting system seems to be quite realistic. makes me want to learn BJJ)

No, the groundfighting is not that realistic. When it comes down to it, the UFC game is just a button masher. I got rid of it about 2 weeks after I bought it.

If it makes you want to learn BJJ, that's great. Learn BJJ. Don't ever try a move you see in a game. Go learn it from someone who knows what their doing. I had a guy play the UFC game a lot and then he grappled with me thinking he knew something.

[smash]

What makes bbj seem invincible is that the format of the UFC was in my opinion a way to market the "Gracie" jiu jitsu. Since they were already competing in MMA events way back in Brazil they had had experience against the other forms or MA they encountered at the start of UFC. The other MA styles were suckered into entering an event specially made to order for the Brazilians.
Later wrestlers ( Coleman, Kerr, Jackson) made their mark but not for long. Then kickboxers, (Bas Rutten, M. Smith) and the myth of bjj began to unravel. Wrestlers and submission fighters are afraid to get hit, that 's why they took the grappling game instead of boxing, where the potential payoffs are in te millions.
You need not master several art forms to deal with BJJ, you can defeat it by simply defending against submissions and destroy him a punching and kicking. In a stand-up fight once they shoot, you sprawl, that's what wrestlers do. In the ground the wrestlers are always on top! Pinning the opponent wins in wrestling. KISS method is the best! Keep it simple stupid. One of BJJ's "phenom" Vitor Belfort was KO'ed by Randy Coutoure, a Graeco Roman wrestler. Even though Coutoure's punching was pathetic.
Boxing and wrestling (gaining superior position on the ground)
These 2 forms would be more than enough to beat BJJ and submission fighters. The important thing to keep in mind is knowing how to defend against submissions.
Bruce Lee? He was the smartest of all!! Hands down. He did his fighting in films and promoting his "own" form of MA, JKD. What new moves he had to offer, (if ever) I don't want or need not want to know.
Karate took a beating from Bruce Lee in his films. It has never recovered, to be overtaken by Tae Kwan Do even. the trouble is that fans would rationalize that since he won in spectacular fashion in film that Karate, boxing, etc was therefore inferior. Why, some of his fans would even venture to say that he would have easily beaten Muhammad Ali if ever they met! Had he foughf Roberto Duran who was in his prime at the height of Lee's fame and beaten him silly I might agree that indeed he is at best a good figher.
Back to BJJ, it is not practical in the streets. Boxing, MT, kickboxing are. You can fight 2 or more opponents using Boxing, MT, kickboxing. But not BJJ and submission and groundfighting.
If you grapple with 1 opponent, what would the otherw do, wait for their turn. Besides you mess up your clothes wallowing on the ground. Nuff said!

[swan104]

I think the thing about UFC is that is it a sport, and you have time to study your opponent for months on end and devise a game plan. In a streetfight, you don't get that luxury. Things are infinitely more chaotic and you need to make decisions in a split second...

Thats why it's always best to run (if you can)!

I think in another interview I read was that one of the reasons BJJ people are losing nowadays is because of the time limit imposed on matches. To me, I get the impression that a BJJ man/woman would happily lie in their guard and wait for an opening/submission. BJJ to me, seems like a more patient martial art.

Lets take Bruce Lee's martial development. He won the fight with Wong Jack Man, but was frustrated that it took 2 or 3 minutes. He felt it should have been finished a lot sooner than that. Jun Fan/JKD is geared towards self-defence and street fighting with the intention of taking the person out on the first half beat/interception if possible, rather than wait for them on the ground (which I believe JJ Machado said).

I'm sure there are a lot of times when you will be taken to the ground, and learning to fight on the ground will be essential. However, striking is equally as important.

[DRLashambe]

TomYum:

It took me a few hours to figure out why you called me Doc...DR are my initials, I never realized what that looked like!

Kingston:

I agree with you. Those guys are learning a very complete art, but still believe that they can supplement it with knowledge from other arts.

Smash:

It's very obvious that you've never read anything by Bruce Lee. What he did in his movies is very different from his concepts. JKD is not a collection of techniques, it is a collection of ideas and philosophies about fighting. I couldn't care less if he could beat anybody, the ideas that he proposed in his writings work very well.

[Great Sage]

Originally posted by smash
Karate took a beating from Bruce Lee in his films. It has never recovered, to be overtaken by Tae Kwan Do even. the trouble is that fans would rationalize that since he won in spectacular fashion in film that Karate, boxing, etc was therefore inferior. Why, some of his fans would even venture to say that he would have easily beaten Muhammad Ali if ever they met! Had he foughf Roberto Duran who was in his prime at the height of Lee's fame and beaten him silly I might agree that indeed he is at best a good figher.

I don't understand "why" you brought Bruce Lee's credibility into this thread, but it's clear that you have no understanding of the REAL Bruce Lee. In truth, Bruce Lee was a big boxing fanatic and studied the art constantly. Furthermore, his degredation of karate was in response to the poor quality of karate practices at the time: pre-arranged sparring, kata, 2-step sparring etc... Finally, for a guy who has trained World Champions and accomplished as many feats as Bruce Lee has, I'd say he could kick ass.

In regards to BJJ, you are exactly correct. The UFC was part of the Gracie Marketing machine. The Gracie's had been training and refining their techniques against various arts before launching the UFC. Furthermore, they "hand-picked" tournament and retired fighters for the bulk of the matches. When more professional fighters entered the UFC, the Gracies started losing.