Karate revisited

[Naihanchin]

I know karate has gotten a bad rap over the years as an unrealistic kick punch art.

Two practitioners I recently saw on video seem to be practicing karate very differently than we usuallt see it here

I recently saw a video of an Okinawan 10th dan named Seiu Oyata, in a system called ryuku kempo okinawan karate. He apparrantly is an expert in karate juitsu, tuite juitsu and atemi jutsu, He seemed very smooth and relaxed, locking and throwing people at will who were trying to take him down and/or hit him pretty hard.

I saw another tape of someone named kaicho nakasone.
He is an 8th degree blackbelt from okinawa, retired undefeated in full contact fighting in Okinawa (5 times).
He practices a variant of Shorin-ryu called Kobayashi shidokan. The most senior practitioner of this style is an Okinawan named Katsuya Miyahira, a student of Chosin Chibana.
Anway, Nakasone often conducts seminars in the states with a master named Sekichi Iha out of Michigan. My friend started training with them. Thus I watched a video of Nakasone.
Besides hitting a makiwara like I've never seen before, he sparred full contact withsome midlevel black belts and kickboxers on the video. All of his fighting involved kicks to the legs, knees, elbows, takedowns and ground lockups. In fact one much bigger guy hit him a few times really hard in the belly and chest but he would kind of roll with the punches and laugh I had never seen anything like it!
Finally the bigger guy took a hard swing at his head and Nakasone slipped inside took the guy down and had him pinned by the throat. The guy gave up immediately
The video also had some training material where people were taking brand new Louisville sluggers and swingin them at him, at his legs and torso and the bats would break everytime.
What surprised me, having done some japanese karate and jujitsu, was the fact that this guy was so fluid, kicked like a thai boxer, and went to the ground and seemed very comfortable there. The last segment of the video was kata.
All the stances were like walking around rather than deep front and back stances.

Anyone on this message board know anything more about these guy or their discipline? Has anyone ever sparred or rolled with someone trained with either of these guys? Any thoughts? Is this what real karate is about as opposed to what most have us have experienced?

[ryanhall]

The video also had some training material where people were taking brand new Louisville sluggers and swingin them at him, at his legs and torso and the bats would break everytime.

I direct you to the thread on fake demonstrations.

[Nick]

...

Okinawan Karate is much more realistic in my experience. As a matter of fact, the style I do has grappling in it.

Later...

[doubleouch]

I've said this a million times on this forum. You need to realize that it is not the style that is at fault it is the training methods. If you use good training methods with almost any style you will move toward very usable techniques that work in a variety of situations.

[Lizard]

Yes but then you have lost your style. If I start doing a style that has two techniques: punch and reverse axekick. If, due to my training I stop using my reverse axe kick then I am no longer doing the same style I started with. Some styles are more useful in self defence than others, some methods of training are more effective than others. Are you saying that all styles are equal and that all that really matters is how you train them?

[ryanhall]

If I may be so bold as to interpret what Doubletouch is saying, I believe that his point about training methods has to do with the idea that when things are trained 'properly,' the same things tend to work out. If Tae Kwon Do trained full contact with hands to the head, their punching would begin to resemble boxing. If boxers trained with Thai fighters, they would learn how to defend low kicks, knees, and elbows, or they would find themselves facedown on the mat and in the hospital a lot more often than they would like. To paraphrase Bruce Lee, there are only so many ways of fighting that actually work. Unless we start growing new extremities, a good puncher from India should look like a good puncher from the United States.

That said, all styles, techniques, and ideas are not equal. Not by a long shot. Aikido, no matter how hard it is trained, will fail against seriously resisting opponents. For anybody who doubts me, ask yourself this question: if I have both of my hands on one of his wrists, how can I defend myself if he decides to fight back? Aren't I making a huge leap of faith in hoping that this guy won't knock me into next week? The answers to these questions are "you really can't" and "yes." An example of poor mechanics in a very solid art is a hook punch in boxing. The horizontal hook (palm facing the ground) is a horrible punch. Does it work with gloves? You bet. Will you snap your wrist if you ever throw it without them? Almost certainly. This inferior wrist/hand positioning has no stability, and were the competitors' hands not taped and gloved to a great degree, this punch would not exist. It would be thrown with the palm facing in (vertical fist).

The training methods matter a ton, but the style is not inconsequential. If you and a clone of yourself trained in different arts: full-contact Karate/Capoeira/TKD/whatever and Muay Thai, the Thai clone would almost certainly win. Why? The training methods would be equal, but the techniques and their application are better in Thai. What if a pure wrestler fought a pure BJJ player? The wrestler would be gone in no time flat because his art is geared to a sport with extremely restrictive rules that basically attempt to rule out moves/techniques that are designed to hurt people. What you train is just as important as how you train it. With equal training methods, if one person trained boxing while the other trained 'dirty' boxing, the dirty fighter would likely win because his techniques are nastier.

In conclusion, the man/woman, the style, and the methods all matter. The former being the most important, and the latter two taking a split of the rest of the pie.

[brokenelbow]

Agree with you there Ryan, training is so important to what makes a style work.

Back to karate, if you look at Funakoshi's book Karate-jitsu you can see how normal his stances are and not stretched out. You can also see him doing some throws and I believe that Kano actually learned one of Judos main throws from him.

[Naihanchin]

Bat break video

I found this on a web site of Nakasone breaking a bat. I don't think any "tricks" are involved here

http://shidokancanada.virtualave.net/images/GrabBag/SenseiNakasoneBatBreak.WMV

[goliath17]

Hi Naihanchin the great man of which you speak of, Nakasone sensei, is indeed everything you have described and more. I'm from Melbourne Australia and I train shidokan which is the style you related to Nakasone Sensei. he has been top melbourne along with Sekichi Iha twice and i was able to train with both. we train under sensei Abet a 6th dan in shidokan. me and a few of the other guys are actually travelling to okinawa in 2months for some intense sparring training with nakasone sensei. As for your response Mr ryanhall i can assure u these bats are louisville sluggers or however you spell it as i have seen Nakasone Sensei break them infront of me along with other students from this same style cut through three of these bats taped together with their shins!!!! NO SHIT

[gracilva]

Vellly good, but bat no hit back.

[saku39]

So true, bats do not hit back!

But might I add such a statement may be considered ignorant.

Take for example that bat break. If done in real circumstances where you genuine push your limits and refine your skill then such an exercise can be benefitial.

I must say I agree with Ryanhall in that there are too many bullshit demos conducted by posers! But looking at that clip, breaking an unsecured bat with your forearm. That is remarkable. You could so easily break your forearm! Imagine a similar blow delivered to a person! The elements in being capable of such a break, namely focus speed and power are fundamental in every mma striker!

[gracilva]

So true, bats do not hit back!

But might I add such a statement may be considered ignorant.

Take for example that bat break. If done in real circumstances where you genuine push your limits and refine your skill then such an exercise can be benefitial.

I must say I agree with Ryanhall in that there are too many bullshit demos conducted by posers! But looking at that clip, breaking an unsecured bat with your forearm. That is remarkable. You could so easily break your forearm! Imagine a similar blow delivered to a person! The elements in being capable of such a break, namely focus speed and power are fundamental in every mma striker!

Ok then, ignorant i am.
Remember....... don't believe anything you hear, and only half of what you see.

[Thai Bri]

I htink that Karate can be very effective indeed. Hard blows with the fists, palm heel, knife hand, elbows, knees and feet etc. But 99% of it is practiced in a ridiculous manner. Imagine soccer players training without a ball...... theres only so much you can achieve.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Why isn't this thread moved to the japanese forum anyway?

[doubleouch]

RyanHall,
Thanks for clarifying my post. You said it much better than I could. I take those breaking the bat demos with a grain of salt. I have seen guys break bricks and other things. In fact, I have done those things in the past. I couldn't defend myself worth $hit though. It certainly is an impressive feat and takes some work to be able to break bats with your arms and legs, but it really doesn't translate to being able to use the techniques real time. Many of the demos of masters throwing around several guys at once look very realistic on first glance. You have to realize that it usually is somewhat choriographed. The students also have the intention of not embarassing their instructor.