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the fallacy of martial arts (very long)

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  • the fallacy of martial arts (very long)

    well I have been thinking about the posts on this board over the last couple years, as well as the statements of people I have met while studying martial arts and have found a few things that I think are very interesting.


    The first of these is the concept that something must prevail in the ring for it to be useful in self defense. I believe that this is false and a kind of backwards thinking. Let me explain why. First you must really think, who are you going to encounter on the street that you are going to need to defend yourself from. First with dealing with a single attacker then with multiple. In a single attacker situation it is the tendency for people to compare that to the ring. They believe that this is a tested system and thus effective. But assumptions are made that are simply no the norm. First most people you defend yourself against are not going to be combat professionals. If you want to take on a combat professional you train like a combat professional. You try to become as strong as them and learn their techniques. But this isn't really necessary for self defense. Chances are unless you are looking for a fight you won't be defending yourself against a combat professional. They are too busy training and using their skills to make a living than attacking you. You are more likely to be attacked by an average person. Statistically you are more likly to be attacked by someone you know or live near. For me their are less than 1000 combat professionals in my area if even that. So with over a million people in the area chances are quite low that I will need to defend myself against one of them. Infact I have never seen a news report of a combat professional commiting a violent crime in my area. So the idea that unless you can beat a combat professional you are not training in self defense is a bit absurd.
    In multiple attacks you don't usually encounter a well strategized fight plan. The attackers don't really use a strategy that makes great use of teamwork, instead they attempt generally to swarm and overwelm an opponent. As has been said by many even a combat professional could fail under these circumstances.

    Instead look at what causes attacks. There are only a few reasons 1. greed 2. anger 3. fear 4 random. Random is not actually all that common unlike what most people believe. It is possible to remove 2 of these. Courtesy can difuse most situations that would have lead to an anger attack as well as fear attacks. That leaves greed and random. so you can greatly reduce you chances of being attacked by just displaying courtesy towards others. You may still be attacked there is no way to remove that possibility to a certanty.


    The fallacy of style. This style is better than that style. This practicioner will always beat that practicioner. Face it the days of pure styles are almost gone. A few cling to tradition but every few systems out there are purely one style. As systems have grown new techniques don't really appear, instead techniques are rearranged, the system of teaching it is changed. The pattern it's learned rearranged, the conditioning modified and the strategy added, subtracted, modified or stolen from another system. Two arts can use the same techniques and strategy, but the one with the better conditioning will win. They could use the same techniques and conditioning and lose to the one that has a better strategy. lets clarify further. JJ was surpassed by BJJ. But they really are the same core art. One made changes so as to make it effective and the strategy changed. Now look at UFC1 many arts entered with the idea that they were going to fight (i.e. try to hurt eachother) what they found was that one group was there with a slightly different intent. Their idea was to cause the others to lose by keeping them from fighting. It did not take long for people to adapt this stratgey into their systems so as to defend against it and utilize it themselves. So systems changed to handle a new threat an opponent that was not intending to stand and fight and who was effective at keeping others from being able to stand and fight as well. Another system is Muay Thai and TKD (Songahm) These systems contain the same techniques. There is no technique in Muay Thai that is not already in STKD. But there are differences in how it is commonly taught. STKD is generally not as effective in combat as Muay Thia, (something I complained about for years) But it is not the techniques in the system, its not the strategy (contrary to popular beliefs TKD people should know how to throw leg kicks as well as any other kick they train the same is true for punches and knees and elbows.) The difference between the two lies in the conditioning aspects (although some schools have a focus on conditioning) and focus. By focus I mean they are training to beat others in a ring, the seek to defeat others. TKD often is taught how to avoid confrontation and keep from being hurt. Accomplished by training on how to keep the average (untrained) attacker from being able to domiate them.


    The fallacy of I trained in it so I know. Many people dismiss styles because they say they have done them so they know. Often they state the did it for a year or so. This really doesn't say much. I have met people in systems that trainined for 10 years and still did not know the priniples that their system is built on. in this forum many people say I took this 10 years ago and it's junk they may even say they taught it. But what we don't know is did they know that system very well. Back 10 or even 20 years ago the martial arts world was a different place. People learned what they were taught. Many did not care why they were being taught to do something they just mimiced their instructors. (one school I went too I had to laugh at, The instructor and broken his finger and was not able to straighten his index finger, So when students did knifehand strikes they all had this funny bend in their index fingers. When I asked the junior instructors why I was told that was the proper way to do it. But when I spoke to the head instructor I found out the truth. These junior instructors mimiced without comprehension. People use this to dismiss Kata training. Often they look over what is being taught in the Kata and instead believe that the Kata is the application of the art rather than a training tool.

    Look critically at what you believe. Are you doing what you were told? Did you practice and art and dismiss it because of a bad instructor or your own failing? Have you bought into the hype that every time you are called to defend yourself you will be going against a 280lb combat professional.

    If is funny how the best fighters often say they are one style or system but use methods of other systems. This is true in just about every system. The best Karate people know how to ground fight. The best TKD people know how to ground fight as well. The best BJJ know how to do a good stand up game.

    just some things to think about, what other contructive ideas can you come up with?

  • #2
    This is a good attempt. But it needs to be edited for grammar and spelling.

    Is this purely your opinion or did you do any 'formal' research?

    Comment


    • #3
      I respect all of your statements and opinions. But I must disagree with you on one thing, people that practice arts that are considered "ring arts" do not think that some UFC Heavyweight wanna be is gonna jump from the shadows and attack them. You see, in my personal opinion I have found that the "best" way to refine techniques is to try using them against a non cooperative, aggressive and well-conditioned human being. True, it's unrealistic for me to believe that some highly skilled BJJ athlete will try to mug me, but its also unrealistic for a person to believe that you are gonna be jumped by some bum that's in horrible shape. Plenty of people wrestle during their highschool years, other people box, what about football players, ect? What I'm trying to say is, in a self defense situation, you never know what the attacker might have up his sleeve, he could be a totally untrained bum, or an athlete.

      You see, the thing is, when you are a "combat professional" you usually keep your ego in check. If I ever encountered a multiple assailant situation, I would run as fast as possible (that's where all that sprinting comes in handy .) If I coulnd't run, then I would try to incapacitate my opponents' just enough so that I could run. I have asked this question to many non ring types such as kung fu guys, aikido practicioners, etc. (I'm not bunching people together, just using them as examples.) And they are such bad asses! (Or so they think) They would stand there and fight, why, because they have never gotten their ass kicked. When you practice arts that rely on sparring as their testing method, you learn to be humble real quick. Because you know that there isn't a possibility that someone out there is better than you, its a fact. Just because you don't practice a ring art doesn't mean that you don't practice self defense, but if you only rely on cooperative partner training and Kata for your training. I give you a simple challenge, spar a lot, put on some gloves, headgear and a mouthpiece and spar. Allow face contact and low kicking and try to use the moves that you learn while you do your practice patterns. Get back to me on that...

      The reason why I have written this is not to discredit anyone. But to try to help people understand the mentality behind the more "physical" martial arts. Like it or not, when you are a martial artist, you are an athlete, martial arts are probably the most physical endeavor that you can participate in. If you are not training athletically (i.e sparring in a ring) you usually are just learning to punch air, and punching air and a human being are two very different things.
      Last edited by Lost Ronin; 06-06-2003, 10:06 AM.

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      • #4
        Re: the fallacy of martial arts (very long)

        A lengthy, but good post... I tend to agree with Lost Ronin on the point of full contact preparation. I also don't agree with the statement below:

        Originally posted by eXcessiveForce
        The fallacy of I trained in it so I know. Many people dismiss styles because they say they have done them so they know. Often they state the did it for a year or so. This really doesn't say much. I have met people in systems that trainined for 10 years and still did not know the priniples that their system is built on. in this forum many people say I took this 10 years ago and it's junk they may even say they taught it.
        A person may never COMPLETELY understand any martial art... However, it is possible to grasp the important concepts of a martial art in a relatively short time. AN ART THAT TAKES 10 YEARS TO LEARN IS NOT WORTH LEARNING.

        Good martial arts are easy to understand and execute. Take boxing for example. After several months, you develop a good understanding of the concepts and techniques. Now, all you have left is to develop knowledge of the ring and the nuances that come with it. But you have the tools to do that.

        In contrast, Monkey Kung-fu takes years to learn, yet offers little functionality. Not everyone can bend their upper body back and between their legs. This sort of training takes years to learn and after several years, you may only be touching the surface. What’s really underneath may simply be mysticism, or a simple truth that could have been easily revealed without the hassle.

        Therefore, if I have over 10 years of Monkey Kung-fu knowledge and I tell you, “it’s crap,” rest assured, it’s probably crap. A good example is MMA guys. They cross train months at a time. They don’t have 10 years to learn an art, so they learn what is important — core training.

        A good art can be applied to the average person. Maybe you have a TKD background like most. Add Muay Thai round kicks, elbows and knees to your side and crescent kicks. Add boxing to your hand techniques and jiu jitsu to your ground game. You see how much more realistic this formula is as opposed to learning 10 years of “Monkey Steals Fruits” to your repetoire and never using it effectively.

        Comment


        • #5
          Lost Ronin

          I have competed extensively, I have sparred people from many styles and weight classes. I cross train and would probably try to compete in more combat related venues if I could afford to do it both in time and risk of injury. And I agree that training to take out a "combat professional" is a good goal. But telling people that because a 35 year old who has trained in a system for awhile but never really worked conditioning who fails in the ring makes a system bad is silly.

          an 18 year old female is not going to take out even a has been combat professional because she trained hardcore. If she manages to live it is going to be because she took them by surprise with something they were not prepared for.

          This is the same for all attackers. When they are taken by surprise maybe by the technique used, the speed of the technique, underestimation of the victim or by the ferociousness of the defense is when the person fairs well. I taught womens self defense. At first I started with the protective gear and let them go at it but one it was too damn hot for me to wear the suit and two it really made teaching and attacking hard. So I dropped all the equipment except for my cup. The only rules were this don't bit hard enough to draw blood or I'll bite you back. And do not scratch and draw blood. I've bled more in that class than I ever dreamed. They bit they scratched they gave up only to attack me as soon as I let go. And they got angry and yelled at times. Why because it was as real as I could make it in a college setting. Then I started letting men join in the classes. only rule here was 1/3 power strikes and kicks (no equipment) and tap to give up. I have worked with people 100lbs heavier than me. Many could successfully defend themselves against someone on the street and had. Many were really quite violent people. But When I decided the would lose and encounter they lost. Always. Now i'm only 5'9 and then i weighed in at 150-160. I am not strong I never have been I am fast and precise and I don't give up. So these 300 lbs guys tapped and they learned to tap eachother and when I let them I tapped. So I am all for pushing yourself and adding contact. I have nothing against ring sports. I take issue with people who feel you must be able to take on a fighter in the ring to defend yourself. It just isn't true.
          We are talking about professionals vs. average people wishing to do you harm there is a big difference. A pride fighter starts coming towards me I'm running as fast as I can and trying to descalate as much as possible i'm also looking for a weapon and hoping to get away. Same thing with any other attack really. But when you can't do that it just doesn't matter anymore you fight to the best of your abilities and then live or die based on the outcome. The better condition you are in the better your chances. I would not argue that. I only argue that you do not need to train for Pride to defend yourself.

          You missed my point there SAGE. I am saying people are morons. Not all people but many people. I know people who could devote their entire lives to chewing bubble gum and never get the technique down. There are very few arts if any out there that can not be learned to some extent in a year or less. But I know people who have trained for ten years and more and still don't have a clue what they were doing. I have also met people who trained only a few months and knew more than the instructor. I have found very few people who critically evaluate a system. Many try a system and then for personal reasons decide it is not a good system. Some even change that system and start teaching only the things they liked. How foolish is this. You are teaching a system that worked for you not teaching what works for your students. I have met many people who have tried to teach me martial arts because when I go to a school I do not tell them I have taugh martial arts for over 10 years. I do not tell them I have trained in many systems. Or that I have read books on everything I can get my hands on. I go in to ask them about their system. I met a jkd guy that told me he gave up on trapping because it could not be done in real life (he demonstrated but did not do any setup at all he just tried to trap) He does not understand the application of trapping. He understands the technique and no more. I had a guy try to teach me how you could keep someone from kicking you. If I had not pulled the kick he would have been out for the count.

          I was trained in a dual system early in my life. That meaning that color belts do things differently than blackbelts. It is for training purposes they learn good habits by doing techniques that are not exactly the way you would do them for real. At blackbelt the modifications are made so that they see how everything works and why it was done. The find that they have proper body mechanics even though we didn't spend that much time on telling them what body mechanics was. We did this because most people do not comprehend enough of what we teach in the beginning to understand. In te beginning it is all work on technique, speed, strength, movement. Later it is about predicting, reading your opponent, Moving not because you see something but because you know something is coming. Try to teach that to a white belt and you will only get frustrated.

          I am not worried about my students fighting a Muay Thai person of the same conditioning in the ring. I would worry about one of my students getting into the ring with a better conditioned opponent thought. Would they be better if they were in better condition on the street? sure the would but good fighters still get dropped by sucker punches. Boxers do get kicked in the head and knocked out. And Wrestlers do get their heads driven into the pavement. I've even seen big football players dropped by small children when they picked the kid up and the kid decided to kick them in the groin for who knows what reason.

          Self defense is using the right tool at the right time with proper preparation. Doing the unexpected correct technique with sufficient intensity at the right time works better than trying to go toe to toe with someone who knows it's coming.


          I

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          • #6
            My God, man... You're making me dizzy... Use paragraphs...

            Comment


            • #7
              I can appreciate your points of view and what you are saying. Excessive, lost ronoin sounds like your opinions are well thought out. I agree mostly and disagree with a few things. No big deal. I have some opinions too.

              Self-defense according to the great and mighty darrianation (all bow now) Heheheheh.. Self-defense all starts with prevention.
              My rules
              1) Don’t be an idiot, treat people with respect, and don’t be cocky.
              2) Always be aware of your surroundings and who’s taking notice of you.
              3) Be confident (but not cocky). Don’t look or act like a target (weak).
              4) If alcohol makes you act like an idiot and or prone to violence then don’t drink it.
              5) Stay away from people who drink and act like idiots or who are prone to violence. Alcohol makes many people act up. Most fights I’ve seen were in bars or parties where alcohol was involved. * Okay this one may not be possible.
              6) Stay out of the bad parts of town especially at night. If you have to go into these areas take a friend or two with you.
              7) Talk you’re opponent down. Many confrontations can be diffused by talking calmly but confidently don’t act weak or show fear.
              8) Run!!! Get out of there. Your survival may depend on it. Pride can get you killed.

              · Remember the best self- defense is not being there or getting into a confrontation in the first place.

              Okay with this all said don’t be afraid to go out and have a good time. No need to quiver in your home in fear.

              Most of the fights I’ve been in or have witnessed were in school. I mean elementary – high school. Only one had a trained fighter as a participant (High school) most were terrible looking fights (horrid technique/ lack of technique). I have never seen a serious injury and heard of very few from this type of playground tiffs. Maybe a black eye here or there, bloody nose, chipped tooth these kinds of things.

              In the real world of adults most the fights I have been involved in or have witnessed have been pretty much the same only with alcohol involved. These have been mostly in bars/ clubs or there parking lots, and at parties. Again these ferocious Nimrod the mighty hunters have been mostly average every day Joes without a lick of training and a little too much testosterone and alcohol in them. Their technique was horrid and injuries rare (except the occasional black eye, bloody nose etc. etc.)

              Those Rare occasions where some one is knocked unconscious usually were from sucker punches that caught them by surprise. Even a trained fighter might not have been able to defend against this. Also I’ve seen head butts (2) that knocked people out. These were surprises too. Remember keep your distance (at least until your ready to strike).

              Now I’m not saying take this self- defense thing lightly I have heard and read, seen on T.V. some that have gone pretty bad. As a health care worker I have seen badly hurt victims in the E.R. These however are exceptions to the rule. You just never know. It can turn ugly any time on any given Sunday so to speak. So it is good to be prepared.

              Now my take on the actual Self-defense break down. Self- defense has broken down after you have disregarded rules 1-8 or they didn’t work. Just the down and dirty of my philosophy (this is a philosophy not a system).

              I call it organized chaos.
              1) Be aggressive.
              2) Go on the offensive.
              3) Do not be afraid to get hit.
              4) Always look for opportunities to disengage and run.
              5) Be focused but aware of what is going on around you.
              6) Don’t worry about how your technique looks.
              7) Be ferocious and intent.
              8) Fight like your life depends on it.

              Use straight punches and go forward. I like to initiate with a double palm strike to the face. Then start punching. Move your opponent back and press him. If he looses his balance and falls this may be your opportunity to escape. If he grabs on to you clinch him use knees to groin, thighs, body, etc. Keep him off balance (if he falls then you can get away). Use elbows, head butts etc.

              As for kicks use them sparingly or not at all. If you must, make them low kicks. Front leg kick to groin, leg kicks (thighs, ankles, or knees), push kicks.

              A little more risky eye jabs. Keep fingers loose so if you miss you won’t break them. Use all the fingers not just the first two. Eye rakes (safer for fingers). Use fingers like claws and scratch at the eyes with an over hand motion.

              I don’ recommend going to the ground. 3 seconds after you have the attacker controlled on the ground you don’t want one of his friends or some yahoo who just wants to get involved kicking/ stomping your head with a still toed boot do you? However having some grappling skills is always good.

              The key here is the intensity, conditioning and ferocity of the attack. Technique is slightly less important. It doesn’t need to be pretty. I’ve seen people with horrible, sloppy looking technique be effective and win. While others look pretty and proper and get they’re ass kicked.

              You can practice full speed and power (and you need to) on a heavy bag or a friend holding a kicking shield. Start off with 15 seconds hitting the bag (straight punches) as hard and fast as you can. Drive the bag back. This will develop your conditioning and power.

              Some easy drills: Start with double palm strike then go to straight punches. Work up to 30 seconds a minute or more.

              Then keep adding techniques on. Like 15 seconds straight punches, grab bag (as if to clinch), head butt, then knees for 10 seconds, elbows for 10 seconds. The combos and the amount of time you decide are endless.

              This stuff is not based on timing or intricate strategies that you need for the ring or competition. This is no non-sense, no bullshit, and simple stuff easy to learn no black belt required. No need to kill your buddy trying to practice it [realistically].

              Now you have successfully completed the Darrianation High on his all mighty soapbox school of self-defense. For a mere fee of 200 dollars I will send you a colorful laminated certificate for you and all your friends to admire and enjoy. Money back not guaranteed.

              I know many may disagree. This is just my personal philosophy. Many of you might have had different experiences than I have had and there is always the unexpected exception to the rule. I believe this to be effective and this plays to my strengths but this may not be the best for someone else. There may be other ways and philosophies that suit them better but this works for me.

              I know I didn’t mention weapons. That subject is another lecture. Just remember prevention, prevention, preventions is the best option.

              Sorry if I got off onto a tangent.

              Comment


              • #8
                darrianation one question. How are we supposed to sell that?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by brokenelbow
                  darrianation one question. How are we supposed to sell that?
                  Claim it's the only effective self-defense method and raise the prices.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Ooh I know. I can say it is a new top secret art from the cia/secret service that only until now has been kept secret from the public. I am risking jail or even assasination by telling you about it.

                    For just $600 this super secret martial arts can be yours. Easy to learn and super effective. Call now for money back guarenteed trial offer etc.etc.etc.

                    Sound good? Hey I'm pretty good maybe I can get a job writing infomercials.
                    Last edited by darrianation; 06-08-2003, 12:31 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      "Instead look at what causes attacks. There are only a few reasons 1. greed 2. anger 3. fear 4 random."
                      You forgot a few. 5 stupidity and 6 substance abuse.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        So you want to be a ninja-fu master? Forget it. The ninjas were nothing compared to inventors of this art. The North pole has never been invaded, and there's a good reason for it: Eskimo Snowball-do. You've probably never heard of the snow chi attack, that's because it's top secret. I was going to keep this ultimate fighting style to myself but I decided that it would be wrong not to make it available to everyone. It doesn't just make you an incredible fighter, you can also learn to fly, turn invisible, and turn into a snowman with awsome snow attack powers! Only $352.99! Order now and recieve Yellow bamboo and ninja ki powers free!







                        Made using 100% origional BS. If you don't see an improvement then it's because Snowball-do takes just over a lifetime to master.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          snowball power

                          Laugh!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by eXcessiveForce


                            I have competed extensively, I have sparred people from many styles and weight classes. I cross train and would probably try to compete in more combat related venues if I could afford to do it both in time and risk of injury. And I agree that training to take out a "combat professional" is a good goal. But telling people that because a 35 year old who has trained in a system for awhile but never really worked conditioning who fails in the ring makes a system bad is silly.
                            You missed my point entirely my friend, I am not saying that everyone has to train in hopes of being an Ultimate Fighting Champion. All I'm saying is that people have to train in an athletic setting if they wanna be able to pull off their techniques on an uncooperative, aggressive opponent. Matt Thornton, the founder of the Straight Blast Gym, has a better way to explain this. I'm really paraphrasing, but never mind that. Thornton has mentioned the fact that if you take a Boxer with lets say, a year and a half of solid training behind them, and you teach him to jab the eyes, hit the throat, and all those other no-holds-barred moves taught in typical self defense classes. He will have much better chances of pulling off those techniques in a real streetfight than your average person that learns these techniques.

                            The reason behind this is because the boxer has experience, something that the average person does not have. Boxers spar all the time, they experience pain, they have developed distancing, sensitivity, rhythm, etc. by sparring with an uncooperative opponent. An untrained person will drop his rear hand while punching, they are more prone to breaking their hand, etc. Why? Because that person has not developed the attributes necessary for the delivery of these techniques. If a Boxer can kick your ass in the ring, imagine what he can do if he is properly instructed and trained in no-holds-barred tactics? I agree with you about the fact that tactical mindset, proper techniques and surprise can and will incapacitate an opponent. But I have to remind you about the fact that these details are not always easy to exploit.

                            A woman gets jumped from behind, there goes your element of surprise (in her favor anyways.) An untrained man gets socked in the face for the first time of his life, say goodbye to his tactical mindset, his natural instincts take over, that may or may not be a good thing. All I'm saying is that people need more than just the typical punching and kicking drills that have been passed down from generation to generation. I'm not saying that traditional arts are bad, but in this world, you should have learned to defend yourself today, not ten years from now. Most people don't want to be grand masters, they want to learn to truly defend themselves, and that's where athletic training comes in.
                            Last edited by Lost Ronin; 06-08-2003, 10:29 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Boxers spar all the time, they experience pain, they have developed distancing, sensitivity, rhythm, etc. by sparring with an uncooperative opponent. An untrained person will drop his rear hand while punching, they are more prone to breaking their hand, etc. Why? Because that person has not developed the attributes necessary for the delivery of these techniques.
                              I'm not really disagreeing but in the ring both fighters are co-operating to a degree as both are fighting within a certain rule set. They're fighting at a certain range where one isn't going to run away or tackle you. OK Tyson is the exception. I've been watching a lot of boxing lately and I've noticed that the majority of boxers that I've seen do exactly what we say they don't, I mean some of the things and I'm talking semi-pro. They drop their hands, they punch from the hip, they keep their guard low, they lead with their face. I watched one fight on Fox Sports where some cat named Americo has 7 fights all KOs and we'd laugh at how bad a "boxer" he is. Looked more like a Chinese Long Fist than boxer.

                              I'm not sure where you get they're less prone to breaking their hands as the next guy unless they're walking around with their hands in wraps and 12 oz gloves.
                              You are right on the money with "they experience pain, they have developed distancing, sensitivity, rhythm". Sparring is such an important part of training.

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