the fallacy of martial arts (very long)

[Lost Ronin]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by brokenelbow
[B] I'm not really disagreeing but in the ring both fighters are co-operating to a degree as both are fighting within a certain rule set. I've been watching a lot of boxing lately and I've noticed that the majority of boxers that I've seen do exactly what we say they don't, I mean some of the things and I'm talking semi-pro. They drop their hands, they punch from the hip, they keep their guard low, they lead with their face.

I'm not sure where you get they're less prone to breaking their hands as the next guy unless they're walking around with their hands in wraps and 12 oz gloves.[B]

I agree with you broken elbow, some boxers have some interesting habits that lead you to think twice about Boxing's techniques. I was talking to a friend of mine who has been boxing and studying martial arts for about ten years, and he said that these bad habits picked up by Boxers are usually the result of the way that they are trained. Boxing is a very solidary sport, most Boxers either have one coach that teaches them all they know, or they learn the basics of it from a coach and then they learn the rest by themselves from sparring and other fighters. That is one of the faults of the teaching methods of some but not all Boxing coaches. Other sports teach the same way, Wrestling is usually taught the same way, teach you the basics and let you figure out the rest. Sometimes you pick up bad habits, but I don't think you'll disagree if I say that the teaching method churns out some very talented combat athletes. All you have to do is instruct people the right way.

As to breaking hands, if you teach people to box the right way and you instruct them in the do's and dont's of striking the head, their chances of breaking their hands are reduced greatly. I've punched people in the head bare knuckle, and I've never broken a hand. I'm not claiming the superiority of Boxing, but if it's mixed with a solid martial arts curriculum, its a very effective method of self defense.

[brokenelbow]

I agree, but the barehand must be conditioned to hit the head at the same power that is used when wearing a glove. All the conditioning that the Asian arts did is a good example of this. Hand wraps also help dictate what techniques in boxing will or won't work. Try some of boxings hooks without good wrist development or hand wraps and you're looking at a sprained wrist and some injured bones in the hand.
While martial sports are excellent for getting closer to realism they still need to be adjusted foruse outside the ring. Boxers, kickboxers and wrestlers guards are all great if they don't have to worry about fighting someone outside of their rules set.

[CHOKE UK]

god the original thread is so long,
That I just couldnt read it all.
I'll do it later when I have a spare week or so.
Its not so much a thread as a novel !


But from what I did read,
the conclusions seemed to be based on "theory"

Theory is something you get from books.

Conclusions should be based on "experience"

Before you can learn to fight a number of people,
you must first learn to fight ONE Person !

But if posts were based on their length,
then yours would be a champ !

[darrianation]

I don't think you need to be a martial artist do be good at defending yourself. I believe that training in martial arts is better than no training at all. However I also believe that a good ring or tounament fighter Has better reflexes, timing, distancing, etc, than your average run of the mill dojo goin', kata doin' kihon loving martial artist.

Ring fighter's are better at dealing with the stress of confrontation and can change tactics more readily if something isn't working. However they spend a lot of time devloping their fight strategy and little time on self defense.

What about hybrid systems that concentrate on self defense, like Vulnick (spelling), or combatives, or something like I described before? Some may be bogus and ineffective but some are good. Better then ring fighting from a self defense stand point and much better then a traditional martial arts.

With that said believe it or not Martial artists can fight. Karate, judo/ju-jitsu, boxing etc, can be very effective in a street confontation. I have seen and used it myself. I have seen some good martial artists fight and they kicked some major ass. I've also seen a black Belt or two get beat. I think this is more the exception to the rule.

Example: I have freind who is a pofessional boxer with 28 pro fights (I believe). He fought out of the Carbajal camp in Phoenix. He is a cruiser/light heavy weight. I saw him take on three guys at a party once.They were were acting up and hit another freind of ours and talking shit that they would kick the shit out of all of us.

Earl (the boxer) asked them where they were from, and after they responded he said "you came a long way to get your ass kicked". They would not leave so he commenced an ass whoopin' Two of them had to be carried out, the third ran away (smart on his behalf). No rules, no refs, no help from anyone else (he didn't need it). He was just a ring fighter. His technique was sharp and a wonder to behold. By the way he never trained in self- defense.

Okay, okay, now I know most of us aren't on the same level (no where near), but ring fighting sure gave him superb self- defense skills.

By the way there is no way to train to beat him unless you were a pro fighter too, or a grappling expert and was able to take him down. However this wouldn't have been a smart thing either because one or more of us would have stepped in.

Ring fighters have a different mentality strong physically, and mentaly. Their condtioning and mental aspect gives them an edge. Self-defense is mostly mental, then comes coditioning, then technique.

So, dont train with the belief you can take these pro's on and beat them on the street. But do train, chances are the drunk guy threating you isnt a pro boxer.

This probably won't change any minds out there but dont rule out martial artists and ring fighters in street situation. Give the martial arts some credit!