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Aikido's Effectiveness Ct'd

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  • Aikido's Effectiveness Ct'd

    From a body guard training website:



    I am reminded of an incident that occurred at the Aspen Academy of Martial Arts in 1974 which resulted in a small personal conversion. The incident involved Sensei Koichi Tohei and Fred Degerberg, an old friend of mine and an outstanding martial artist. The encounter occurred during a training seminar on Aikido at the Academy;

    To illustrate his point, Tohei picked out a big guy in the group...it happened to be my friend Fred Degerberg. Tohei asked him to stand and throw a punch; Fred paused a moment and repeated the request, "you want me to throw a punch at you?" as if to ask, are we punching for real?

    Now, Fred Degerberg trained for many years as a boxer prior to taking up the study of the Eastern arts, his teacher was a heavy weight contender and an excellent trainer. The result of the many years of training was that Fred had a lighting fast Jab. But the request was begging for an opportunity, so Fred obliged. He threw three jabbing pulses in the direction of Tohei's head, (intentionally not making contact) and set up for the Right Cross. Tohei immediately threw his hands in the air and exclaimed, "no..no...no throw a real punch." Fred Degerberg is not a complete spoiler, so said in a moment of insight, "Oh, you mean one of these." He obliged by dropping into a deep Front Forward Fighting Stance more familiar to the Japanese systems and launched a Reverse Thrust Punch. The hand was caught and Degerberg went to the mat, and I said, "aha ha...this is a Dance that I am all too familiar with in my own system."

  • #2
    He used a karate punch huh? You know all the things like this have one thing in common; they are all straight in linear punches. Why didn't Degerberg stick with boxing punches? Why didn't he feint in from one direction use some foot work and nail him with the other hand?

    I totally believe there are people out there that can do this. Koichi Tohei is probably one of them. I just can’t help to wonder though how many Aikidoists could do this and how long does it take to get that good?

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    • #3
      "Why didn't Degerberg stick with boxing punches? Why didn't he feint in from one direction use some foot work and nail him with the other hand?"

      I think Degerberg would have nailed Sensei Tohei with the right cross and made a scene, while hurting his knuckles. The Karate lunge punch is telegraphed and thus easier to deflect.

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      • #4
        Frankly, demonstrations wherein an instructor tells someone to do something (other than "attack me full on with anything and everything you have") prove absolutely nothing. If you know what is coming, you can do just about anything. I can't pull an elbow destruction in a real fight, but if I ask you to stand and throw a punch from range (that means it's narrowed down to a jab/lead straight or a cross because of the distance), I can make it happen on most people. Martial arts demos really don't do anything for me.

        No more Aikido threads please. This horse has been shot and beaten repeatedly.

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        • #5
          I like how Tom talks about this incident as if he was there.

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          • #6
            I think it was actually a quote from the website Poopy.

            When giving a demonstration to illustrate a point a cooperative partner is necessary.

            If you want to go balls out to see if it works, pad up and spar.

            You can play 'what if' all day long.

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            • #7
              I saw a similar exchange at a seminar/workshop once.

              Aikido instructor asks for volunteer.
              Tells volunteer to try and punch him.
              Volunteer says "You really want me to punch you?"
              Aikido instructor says "Yes, try to punch me however you want."
              Volunteer lands a strong jab square on the Aikido instructor's kisser.
              Seminar attendees have to break the two apart.

              I have all the respect in the world for Aikido but if you're going to promote your art (any art) via seminar then you should at least try to make it look good. Asking someone to hit you, and then losing your temper when they do, doesn't impress very many people.

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              • #8
                "I am the aikido chi master, I am calm and intelligent. I will defend any punch with ease. Hit me."
                "Really?"
                "Yes, hit me as hard as you can with ANY punch. Go on, attack me."
                "OK" WHACK!!!
                "Ow, that hurt! Right I'll get you for that you bastard. AAHHH!"

                The ancient master of holy chi shouldn't have lost his temper so easily. Who was winning when they got pulled apart?

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                • #9
                  The volunteer (who is a Federal prison guard with a fair bit of experience at controlling people intent on causing bodily harm) was keeping the instructor from causing any damage but it took a few people to pull him away.

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                  • #10
                    Aikido

                    Well I know an aikido black belt who says that stuff doesn't work against a skilled fighter who has good boxing skills.

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                    • #11
                      There was an old Chief Inspector in my force called Robinson. He used to fancy himself as a Martial Artist and we called him "Rambo Robinson". He was in Public Order training, where the guys specialise in standing with their arms folded, legs wide apart and shouting. Most of them are macho arse holes.

                      Anyway, when Rambo was on division there was a tiresome and loud prisoner. This prisoner wants to take on the world, you know the type. Thick, drunk and gormless.

                      Anyway, Rambo gives him the big warning in front of us all. "If you carry on like that I'll paste you in front of all these people". So the guy says ok. Now Rambo's in charge, so we all just sit back and watch the show. This prisoner kicks the shit out of Rambo, and we piss oursleves laughing. Poor Rambo Robinson. We fuinally saved him, but his ego has not yet mended.

                      I think demos are stupid bravado nonsense. All that matters is can you save your skin when the shit hits the fan. If you want to demo wood breaking or acrobatic kicks, thats fine. But if you want to demo how effective you are then watch out. Sod's Law says you'll get your arse kicked.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Aikido

                        Originally posted by Benjamin Dover
                        Well I know an aikido black belt who says that stuff doesn't work against a skilled fighter who has good boxing skills.


                        Totally agree,
                        oh and I like the very imaginative name Ben !

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                        • #13
                          Martial arts are just like chess, knowing all the moves doesn't make you a good player, playing does

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                          • #14
                            yup,it's all about individuals who perform the art. Aikido can be very powerful, if mastered, like any other arts. I saw a Taekwondo blackbelt fight a boxer that I knew in the street. the tkd guy did a jumping roundhouse kick right in the boxers face. i think the boxer broke his nose or jaw. It's all about speed, determination, and strenght. Not the style.

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                            • #15
                              It's all about speed, determination, and strenght. Not the style.
                              Actually, that's not true. There was another thread that covered this not long ago, and the concensus correctly stated that 'style' does matter. A hard bastard is tough regardless of what he does, but he can be better or worse depending on the way he fights. The 'the individual is the only thing that matters' comment is a cop-out used by systems and styles when their fighters lose. I will be better prepared to deal with a street assault if I stick to combatives and reality-based self defense rather than ring sports. I will be much better served in open ring competition by practicing boxing, BJJ, Thai, wrestling skills rather than TKD, Karate, etc. Sorry, but that's just the way it is. An exceptional person who happens to be a TKD blackbelt may be able to overcome the glaring deficiencies in his/her art, but the average person will not.

                              I saw a Taekwondo blackbelt fight a boxer that I knew in the street. the tkd guy did a jumping roundhouse kick right in the boxers face
                              To be honest, I don't believe you. Not that a TKDer beat a boxer, but that anyone was able to pull a jumping, spinning roundhouse and land it on anyone, much less a fighter. Also, street fights tend to happen at close range, not jump kicking range. Unless these people are your buddies, and this incident happened to take place in the cul de sac outside your house. I'm not accusing you of stretching the truth...aw hell, yes I am.

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