All Styles Are Not Created Equally

[Bjjexpertise@be]

LOL. So you guys are saying that a jump kick is supposed to dismount a guy on a horse? How does it work out? Ok the horse is pretty damn tall, so you'll have to be a 7ft scandinavian, olypic competitor to be able to jump that high. Plus, you're also forgetting the fact that you'll be wearing armor that weighs at least 60 pounds. So jumping 6 feet into the air while wearing 60 pounds(minimum) of armor is possible? Wow.

[AdamTKD]

Defence against mounted cavalry

I am a TKD'r of just under 2 years standing.
If it looked like a mounted horseman armed with either sword or lance was going to attack I go and get a bow and arrows or a hefty spear to throw....not to attack the rider you understand but to attack the horse itself, my thinking tells me it's a bigger target so more probability for success.

Also, and *NO* I wouldn't like to be the first to try this, I did either hear or read somewhere that a horse would jump over a prone figure rather than trampling so (if this is true) it's a possible defence.

Adam.

[HuSanYan]

So are you saying that a flying kick would be directed against the horse?

no not at all.
In Sth Africa these high kicks are used to smash a Rhino or Hippo into immediate unconsciousness, its all in the timing

[AdamTKD]

So are you saying that a flying kick would be directed against the horse?

No, that's why I mentioned either bow and arrows or spear.
It's you that mentioned flying kick, probably because you didn't read my post properly.


Adam.

[Bjjexpertise@be]

It is true the horse will try to avoid you but, even though it will try to get away from you, 80% of the time one or two of its legs will nick you. And when it does it's a whole world of pain for you.

[kelvinyu73]

IMHO,

all styles are equally effective, it all depends on the practitioner and his/her level of training.

All styles basically embody certain fighting principles. Techniques used by a system are consistent with their fighting principles.

Is it logical to ask if a fighting principle is superior to another ?

There was once a spear that claimed to be the sharpest spear in the world, capable of penetrating all armour. There was also a shield that claimed to be the best piece of protective armour in the world. When spear meets shield, what happens ?

Let me give another example of opposites. Say a boxer fought against a TKD player. The boxer would utilise boxing's shorter range fighting principles, while a TKD guy would use TKD's longer range kicking principles. Would a boxer be able to close the range, or would the TKD guy be able to maintain the fight at the effective range ?

Such a question would give rise to LOTS of speculation with no fixed answers. Many variable would come into play, e.g. each fighter's sense of timing, distance, depth of understanding in their respective arts, stamina and fitness to take punishment, and the rule governing the match in question.

As you can see, the key success of this particular match depends on so many things besides "my punch is better than your kick, which is better than his throw, which is better than xxyyzz etc".

IMHO, it is more important to focus on these internal factors:
- how well do you know your art ?
- how long and hard have you trained ?
- do you understand fundamental principles enough to express it in applications ?
- How fit are you ?
- How is your sense of timing and distance ?

If one cannot even do the above well, how can one claim that "because he knew such and such techniques" that why he defeated me !!

And if you are not even an expert in 1 art, learning 2 3 or 4 different arts is not going to make one an expert in any art ! Such thinking only makes one susceptible to fads: once upon a time, judo was 'in', then karate, then kung fu, then wing chun, ninjutsu, FMA, reality based etc.

Rather than blame a system for being incomplete, why not look at one's own deficiencies ? We can then take our discussions to a higher plane, rather than resort to this "kick is better than that throw" type of arguments, which leads no-where, frankly.

[Bjjexpertise@be]

Kelvin, in the first post, Ghost said that we are looking at MA's based on the system, not the practitioner.

[TylerDurden]

There is one thing people seem to be forgetting. Arts like Judo, Wrestling, BJJ, Muay Thai are all sparred at full speed. Other arts that never get this experience are setting themselves up to be crushed. "If someone attacks you use an eye gouge." Ever tried it? Because a Judoka certainly has used his throws and chokes, not practiced, used. A Thai boxer has used that round kick about 1000 times, a wrestler has done thousand of single leg take downs.

Do Aikido wrist locks work? Sure in theory they work great, lock a joint and apply pressure, it breaks no problem. But 99% of Aikidoists have never done it. How many BJJ players have gone from equal position, taken control, and then applied an armbar against an unwilling opponent? How about all of them.

Thats the biggest difference between what works and what doesn't. And yes you can make the claim, well a Thai boxing match, or a Judo match has some rules. True, but they are alot closer to actual fighting than a TKD match ever will be.

[fullcircle]

Kick someone off a horse! Ridiculous! You should take the horse down with a MT roundhouse and choke it out, then attack the rider!

[TylerDurden]

I think there is a style of Kung Fu specifically for anti horse combat. Horse Dung Do or something like that.

[Tom Yum]

I think there is a style of Kung Fu specifically for anti horse combat. Horse Dung Do or something like that.

Correction, its Horse Dong Do founded by Grand Shfu Hung Well brought to America by Shfu John Holmes. This style is learned pro-bono via dic-tation from the Grand shfu himself.

Guranteed to scare off the bad guys and win women's succulent jubilations!

[kelvinyu73]

There is one thing people seem to be forgetting. Arts like Judo, Wrestling, BJJ, Muay Thai are all sparred at full speed. Other arts that never get this experience are setting themselves up to be crushed. "If someone attacks you use an eye gouge." Ever tried it? Because a Judoka certainly has used his throws and chokes, not practiced, used. A Thai boxer has used that round kick about 1000 times, a wrestler has done thousand of single leg take downs.

Do Aikido wrist locks work? Sure in theory they work great, lock a joint and apply pressure, it breaks no problem. But 99% of Aikidoists have never done it. How many BJJ players have gone from equal position, taken control, and then applied an armbar against an unwilling opponent? How about all of them.

Thats the biggest difference between what works and what doesn't. And yes you can make the claim, well a Thai boxing match, or a Judo match has some rules. True, but they are alot closer to actual fighting than a TKD match ever will be.

To a large extent I would agree with you. Realistic training against a resisting opponent/(s) is an integral part of training. However, different systems do approach this subject differently.

I would sort of sub-divide this into "throw you into the deep end and hope you can swim", vs the "build up strong basics so that you do not fight wildly" schools.

I think schools like karate, TKD, MT, Judo etc go into the first category, where sparring is emphaisised right from the beginning. IMHO, the strong points of such a system are that a beginner knows what it is like to hit/throw, be hit/thrown. The fighter learns to deals with fear, adrenalin, 'butterflies in the stomach' almost immediately. Over time, a experienced fighter would inevitably develope.

For other schools like Aikido, the situation is not that there are no randori at all, it just that it is delayed till much later in the training. i.e the philisophy is that basic techniques are quite complicated, and it takes more time to be able to use them effectively. If a student spars too soon, bad habits could be learnt that would be difficult to eliminate later. Randori starts near the brown belt/black belt level, which is normally 3-4 years in the training.

In their defence, once Aikido randori starts, there are 2 attackers vs one, and 4 attackers vs one tests. There are also tests of knife disarms. I think a AIkido practitioner who can skillfully express Aikido techniques in realistic multiple opponent and weapon disarm scenarios is probably quite skillful in his/her own way as well. Also, there are other styles of Aikido (Yoshinkan, Tomiki etc) where sparring is emphasised relatively more than other schools.

I don't think we should get into situations where we criticise systems for not conforming to what we think is the 'ideal', 'best' or 'ultimate' - there's just too much diversity out there for any one system to have a monopoly on what's good or no good.

[HuSanYan]

Correction, its Horse Dong Do founded by Grand Shfu Hung Well brought to America by Shfu John Holmes. This style is learned pro-bono via dic-tation from the Grand shfu himself.

now look here TomYum, don't be dissing Horse Dong Do its a very realistic street style that could very easily beat MT & BJJ and MMA hands down with no question.
I am a Grand Sifu of this style.