The Truth About Street Fighting

[Great Sage]

I cringe each time someone asks me how well BJJ, Muay Thai or boxing will work in a street fight... Because the fact of the matter is, street fighting is a thing of the past–here in the United States, it’s very unlikely that you’re going to be involved in a street fight. At least not in the perceived sense.

Most people, when they set out to learn a martial art, envision themselves toe-to-toe with an adversary in a battle of skill... Unfortunately, that’s not the case. Maybe in remote corners of this country, that sort of thing happens. But rest assured, even a high school kid can be charged as an adult for battery. Needless to say, most adults will talk themselves out of a skirmish.

There ARE street crimes... Most of them are uncertain and dangerous. Real street incidents involve weapons, ambush and multiple assailants. In these instances, your best defense may depend more on luck or chance than anything else.

Therefore, one has to really wonder and understand the reasons for training. As kids, we my have had these glorified visions of being tougher than the next guy, but that’s all part of the growing process. Now, we train for the joy of competing or for the sake of the art, etc...

If you’re truly interested in safety, more states are allowing permits for concealed weapons. A gun is the most formidable martial art. Otherwise, you can simply avoid places and situations that will result in a street incident. And should you be forced to use your training one day, it will change your perception of street fighting.

[ryanhall]

Great Sage,
I agree with just about everything you said. In real life, fights are called assaults. They often involve weapons, multiples, and the law. They are almost never fair. What martial art will work best 'in the street?' One that isn't a martial art. 'Attributes' are nothing if you get stabbed or shot by some gang banger half your size. Your best bet is awareness. Seeing it coming, then leaving before it does. If you can't do that, then try to talk your way out of it. If you can't do that, then go straight through the other guy or guys. Then leave. The Nike defense is often your best and safest bet.

Any hand to hand training you may have should be designed to do one thing: last you long enough for you to lay your hands on a weapon. It should be violent, completely offensive, and able to work against a larger, stronger, committed opponent who CAN fight (though being larger and stronger yourself is of course preferable). You should be versed in all ranges, and you training should not be ring-focused (though there is nothing wrong with ring combat). Cultivating the proper mindset for street survival is perhaps the most important part of the equation, as all the wonderful techniques and attributes mean less than nothing if you don't have the heart to use them, or you freeze thanks to the adrenaline, fear, and blast of emotions that you never expected you'd encounter.

I highly recommend reading this first two articles (as well as the others, but this is two in particular):

http://www.allinfighting.com/Fronting.html

http://www.allinfighting.com/WhoisRight.html

http://www.gutterfighting.org/ccknifedefensemyth.html

http://www.allinfighting.com/Nuts.html

[Great Sage]

Ryan,
Thanks for the links. I especially enjoyed "It's Not a Matter of Who is Right....." by Carl Cestari. It goes to the core of a fight. I intend to print a copy for my training partners...

Thanks again.

[ryanhall]

No problem. Glad I was able to help.

[c0bra]

not sure where your from Sage but with alot of the HS'ers and 'kids' here theres alot of hand to hand street fights. if not only at school then at just normal hang out places. just last year a teenager got beat to death infront of a store. yes.. weapons are getting more common, ect. but if your about to get beat up and you shoot someone, guess whos goin to prison?

[Kingston]

Good articles. training for a worse case scenario is great, but creating a worst case scenario out of something that would normaly just be a bad case scenario is not good.

use of lethal force is a tricky thing. It gets worse if you are a "deadly martial arts master" or a combatives practitioner. Killing people comes with some serious reporcusions, even in a self defence scenario. Does the guy with a knife just want your wallet, or is he going to try to kill you?

[ryanhall]

creating a worst case scenario out of something that would normaly just be a bad case scenario is not good.

True. Definitely. It's not about being a badass, it's about protecting yourself and your loved ones. Nothing makes you invincible, so you would be well-served to use your head rather than your fists in most situations.

Does the guy with a knife just want your wallet, or is he going to try to kill you?

Hard to ascertain in some cases. You have to make the call based on feeling, and if you were wrong, well...then it sucks for him. First course of action is naturally giving him/her your money or possessions.

If any of the following happens, however, you'd best try your hardest to KILL the mother f*cker, because it'll probably be you if you don't, and it may be the only chance you get:
1) They tell you to come with them to a second location (the second crime scene is where law enforcement usually finds the body--someone could point a stinger missile at you, but you'd better not go with them).
2) You get the feeling that you will be killed or forced to do something that would be tantamount to killing you (rape, etc.).
3) You are bound or restrained (you won't be able to resist later)--does the story of the staff of a fast food restaurant (I believe it was Burger King) in Queens being executed after being bound with duct tape ring a bell? Look it up on google.com if you feel like it.

Lethal force is tricky, but I'd rather be wrong than dead myself. A knife is deadly in anyone's hands, so is a gun. You can be punched, fall, hit your head on the pavement, and die from the impact. Shit happens in real life. You have to have the wherewithall to modify your application of force to meet the needs of the situation. If you can't do this, you will land yourself behind bars.

A number of conditions must be met for the use of lethal force to be justified in the eyes of the law. I'll post them when I get them.

[BadgerFu57]

non-serious answers to serious question

What would happen if you just started freaking out and talking in an Irish accent intermixed with gaelic? I find at school (yes I am one of those durned high schoolers) most fights can be avoided by just acting a little crazy.... I mean how many people would want to mess with a psychopath? Of course, I mind my manners and am rather agreeable.... but when someone is drunk they don't care much for that. But if you tell them your a leprechaun named Shemmy and start dancing, they get confused long enough to get away.

[Sean Dempsey]

I had a knife pulled out one me once. The guy even lunged and made a big horizontal arcing "slice" at me.

I have no idea what happened after that.

I have totally blanked what happened because it was such a panic, I assume I backed up and ran like a track meet. Once you see a shining chrome death in someones hand, you aren't thinking of how sweet your Rickson moves are gonna be, or that knife defense you learned in karate class.

At no point did I even *consider* trying to clinch, or block, or anything else. It went like this:

1. see knife
2. see me running

And you know what - I am DAMN glad I did.

I don't plan on ever defening myself unless it's do or die. Running, locks on doors, cell phones, those all come before my chosen art of BJJ.

[Kingston]

Originally posted by ryanhall
A number of conditions must be met for the use of lethal force to be justified in the eyes of the law. I'll post them when I get them.

cool. i look farword to seeing them. Though it can vary from state to state country to country and province to province.

An intresting thing about the amount of force you use, in certain situations. There was a case here in Canada (this was for a friends highschool law class, they had to decide what the charge would be...mansloughter, murder 1, whatever, i wasn't in the course)

(paraphrasing) a man (guyA) is with his friends in a bar, at some point, an altercation happens between him and another man in the bar (GuyB). they exchange some insults....the guyA ignores the guyB and goes about his business.....the nights ending, guyA leaves alone. GuyB confronts him outside the bar and gets into a karate stance (guyB being a blue belt in karate). Turns out guyA is a brown belt. GuyA sidekicks guyB. GuyB hits the ground doesn't get up. GuyA leaves the scene. Later in the night GuyB, being knocked out, chokes on his vomit and dies.

Now i cant remember what the charge was, or if he was convicted. But he ended up with some serious problems. A big problem was he was trained in martial arts.

I can also recall hearing new stories of people being killed from a single punch to the chest, a child punching another in the back of the head causing death, and a college student punching a kid out, only to have him crack his head on the pavement.

i dont really have a point. Just thinkin out loud.

these incidents are not the norm.....but they still happened...."worst case scenario" i guess, heh

[Nutz]

Originally posted by Sean Dempsey
I had a knife pulled out one me once. The guy even lunged and made a big horizontal arcing "slice" at me.

I have no idea what happened after that.

I have totally blanked what happened because it was such a panic, I assume I backed up and ran like a track meet. Once you see a shining chrome death in someones hand, you aren't thinking of how sweet your Rickson moves are gonna be, or that knife defense you learned in karate class.

At no point did I even *consider* trying to clinch, or block, or anything else. It went like this:

1. see knife
2. see me running

And you know what - I am DAMN glad I did.

I don't plan on ever defening myself unless it's do or die. Running, locks on doors, cell phones, those all come before my chosen art of BJJ.

Too true. My old instructor passed down an old saying to us about facing weapons on the street that went something like this... Run, Fly, or Find an equalizer. Since you can't fly away, running is your main option. If you can't run you better find an equalizer.

[Nit]

Someone in my town was attacked last week, early morning at a petrol station.

Man pulled out knife, asked for his wallet...

the defender must've had a little training (squaddie maybe) he refused, the guy swiped at his, he dodged and punched his in the face, possible breaking his nose...

and for his trouble he is probably going to get done for assault! plus his stomach was severely slashed...


see knife...
eat my dust...

[Great Sage]

Originally posted by c0bra
not sure where your from Sage but with alot of the HS'ers and 'kids' here theres alot of hand to hand street fights. if not only at school then at just normal hang out places. just last year a teenager got beat to death infront of a store. yes.. weapons are getting more common, ect. but if your about to get beat up and you shoot someone, guess whos goin to prison?

It’s been nearly 9 years since I’ve been in high school, but I can believe that fights still break out. In many instances, you have the a pit fight–that is, the crowd forms a little pit where two guys duke it out. These seldom last very long because they’re very noticeable by school officials and most adults. However, where I grew up, one was more likely jumped by multiple attackers. In the few seconds that it takes to get noticed, multiple attackers can make short work of an individual.

I don’t doubt that street fights happen. But the incident of the teenager beaten to death in front of a store is a sad reminder of the uncertainty and repercussions of fighting. And “yes” shooting someone without justification will put you in a hard place. It’s a judgement call that you’ll have to make if you decide to carry a gun. Was he reaching for a weapon? Was your life in eminent danger?

[Lizard]

"A big problem was he was trained in martial arts. "

So let me summerise:

Untrained guy punches someone and they happen end up dead = Guy in trouble.

Martial artist punches someone in head and they happen end up dead = MA Guy in serious big deep trouble.

In that situation it would have been better not to have trained in martial arts. Crazy legal system.

[swagman]

Violence

is generally unpredictable as to when it will occur, towards whom it will be aimed and with what force it will be given.

as a father, husband and role model to younger people, my obligation, and my first rule of self defence is not to be there in the first place, and if I am there, then to get the hell outta there rapidly.

Its not macho, but it works