sherwinc "the greatest martialartist" or so im led to believe

[TheDeadlySquid]

HaHaHa

"Ah, Young Grasshopper. . . Your Kung Fu is no good !"

TheDeadlySquid

Additionally to what Darrian just posted:

Nobody cares if Kung Fu is the most superior. It isn't that you are proud of your art man, its that you are so freakin' disrespectful of everyone else's. Let me restate this for emphasis... This is not an anti-Kung fu thread. It's an anti-disrespect thread.

Defend.net is a 'forum' where people 'exchange ideas' and hopefully 'learn from each other'. In order for this to happen there must be a civil discourse. Continually repeating the same statements again and again regardless of the thread subject is not discourse - its spam. Continually insulting any and all arts is not civil - it's rude.

[darrianation]

[QUOTE=sherwinc]since no one believe that KungFu is the only most superior martial arts, i am the only one who believe it, convincing others is already stopped.....

i have already presented my reasons and articles....

since majority doesnt agree with me that KungFu is the most superior of all, debate with regards to superiority is now closed.....QUOTE]

gregimotis is right this not about how we hate KF it's about the reality of MAs and the disrespect you have shown others and their arts.

Also when you speak of the superiority of KF, or your KF I ask superior to what, for what? KF maybe your favorite MA and it may be the best for you personally but that is a far cry from declaring it the best of all MAs. KF has a lot of good theory, you have stated some good theory but you stated as empirical and that defies logic in the context of theory and MAs.

You list A, B, C, D, and why it beats a, b, c, d. If you look at it a vacuum it can make some sense. The problem is you are comparing it to other MAs that you really don’t know that much about. This makes your arguments look rigid, undefined, and illogical.

You seem as well as a lot of traditionalist (not all) to be stuck in theory. In reality things are a bit different, in the real world results can differ greatly from the original hypothesis, and lab results. This is what I think is your biggest misconception.

This is why when a KF fighter enters the cage in the UFCs or some other MMA venue they look nothing like KF. The same thing happens to Karatekas, kenpo folk, and etc.

I have seen the same things happen to MAs in street fights; they rarely look like the arts they practice. The same thing has happened to me but remember it doesn’t matter how pretty or technically correct your techniques are, or how many you know. Only one thing matters are they effective.

In the real word effectiveness is often characterized by efficiency, directness, and simplicity. This is a staple of scientific understanding. MAs that are top heavy in techniques and complexity have a higher risk of breakdown when the preverbal shit hits the fan.

You have never broken out of the theory stage so you’ll be stuck there without a true understanding. I was there too, when I finally broke through to the other side (theory to reality) I finally understood. I realized I was sold a lie, and although I had fun competing in tournaments, and in ring sports there were better ways of using my intellect, and energies when it came to real self-defense.

[retired]

Nicelly said.

[Nothingness]

In the real word effectiveness is often characterized by efficiency, directness, and simplicity. This is a staple of scientific understanding. MAs that are top heavy in techniques and complexity have a higher risk of breakdown when the preverbal shit hits the fan.

That's why Ngo Cho Kun rocks, "if you can't take down your enemy in 2 punches, you already lose"!

Seriously, I think we need to differentiate these following aspects:

1. MA as a competition sports
1.1. MA as a competition sports that emphasizes on creating "point" (i.e. WTF TKD, Judo, etc).
1.2. MA as a competition sports that emphasizes on the surrender of the opponent (UFC, etc.)

2. MA as a health exercise (health Taiji, etc.)
3. MA as a survival method

Of course, there is always an overlap in those functions. However, let's just see it from a naive way for now.

There are different strategies incorporated for those 3 functions. For an example, for function 1, you want to have a balance between a good defense and offense while maintaning your stamina. Unless you are far superior, it is rarely that you can bam, wham, slam your opponent and KO him (or her) in seconds. If you are in a tournament, you also want to make sure that you want to avoid an injury that costs you in the next round.

I don't think we are that interested now in discussing function 2.

As for function 3, the strategy is to disable your opponents ASAP with any means available because you never know what they carry or how many of them are in the flock. This is where MAs with the strategy and training that deal with multiple opponents in a small space (such as with a wall on your back) prevail.

I think some of us are confusing no 1 and no 3.

While training in one of those functions may correlate with the effectiveness of another function, I still think that you still need a specific training on each to be effective on each.

A good system will touch all functions with different weight.

I hope this help.

[Nothingness]

I almost forgot to mention no 4: the spiritual aspect of MA. This issue is rather controvesial in Western culture.


This function includes a tea ceremony where I and Thai Bri sit down and chat after we have our opportunity to show to each other how we wave our hands in the thin air while wearing our pajama .

[retired]

So which one are you?

[Nothingness]

Please don't get me wrong. I am not trying to defend sherwinc, but I understrand his prepositions although I disagree with him bashing other MAs. I am just trying to give another perspective of the situation in SE Asia that differs so much from North America and Europe.

My background is in Ngo Cho Kun. Our primary emphasis is in no 3, the secondary emphasis is in 2. In where I grew up (SE Asia), we never had any tourney for our style, but we constantly faced challenges from different MAs (from another Kungfu, Silat, Karate, Boxing, etc). We didn't have any privelages to have an open "dojo"; we had to practice behind a closed door. I also have couple *sick* seniors who kept challenging people, including joining a boxing tournament and challenging a military trainer. As for me, I had many troubles when I was younger for fighting. I was made to swear to my teacher that I wont be involved in any street fights or he will disown and give me a stern lesson.

I am not trying to say that I am a tough guy or anything. However, growing up as a minority, I had to be alert all the time. People could actually beat me up for no reasons just because of my ethnicity. In addition, it is not that hard to carry knives, samurai, or blades around. Yeah, I was lucky enough that there were no guns around. I have had a habit to avoid confrontations with these people. First, what's the point fighting for this? Second, it will weary you quickly if you have to face this kind of people on the daily basis. However, sometimes a confrontation was unavoidable. When this occured, I had to really be able to knock people down fast before more people show up. It might sound corny, but my training involved training with close eyes and sparring against 2-3 persons with a wall on my back. My teacher just wanted to make sure that if I really had to use my MA, I would be able to use it well enough to stay alive.

Hence, this brings to one of sherwinc's point: no confrontation is better because you win. I understand this very well. I had a fellow student who was really tough. He won a lot of fight. However, one night while he was riding a moped, someome chopped him with a blade from behind. He died only 1000 ft from a hospital. It was one of the guy who lost to him before.

In my case, I don't want to prove that I am a tough guy or good enough; I just want to stay alive. However, I also love the training process itself and it also makes my body feels fresher.

Omitting his MA bashing, I think he just represents a different perspective. I reside in California now. I pretty much can compare the two different situations. To tell you the truth, I really love being here where I can practice at a park or at a gym openly without having people staring at me or coming to me to challenge me, or even being cautious that someone might comes and pick a fight with me.

I am always interested to compare my experience with someone from Brazil (Sao Paolo in particular) .

[Nothingness]

Btw, I am actually a very peaceful guy . I have managed to avoid confrontations in the States so far.

The last time I almost got into a confrontation was last month. I was helping my friend securing a local soccer tournament. Then there was a big fight between 2 teams at the field. My friend as the organizer tried to stop the fight but he ended up got beaten by 4 people or so. So, he ran for couple feets away and got down on the ground with his arms protecting his head. There were 4 guys emotionally chasing him, so I stepped in to their ways and yelled at them to stop it because I didnt want my friend to get hurt more. I just stood between them and waited. I didn't even in a fighting stance; I just watched them closely. Fortunately they stopped and backed out; I was so lucky .

The situation was out of hand so I called the police later. Gosh, I love this country; everything is so convenient!

[darrianation]

That's why Ngo Cho Kun rocks, "if you can't take down your enemy in 2 punches, you already lose"!

Seriously, I think we need to differentiate these following aspects:

1. MA as a competition sports
1.1. MA as a competition sports that emphasizes on creating "point" (i.e. WTF TKD, Judo, etc).
1.2. MA as a competition sports that emphasizes on the surrender of the opponent (UFC, etc.)

2. MA as a health exercise (health Taiji, etc.)
3. MA as a survival method

Of course, there is always an overlap in those functions. However, let's just see it from a naive way for now.

There are different strategies incorporated for those 3 functions. For an example, for function 1, you want to have a balance between a good defense and offense while maintaning your stamina. Unless you are far superior, it is rarely that you can bam, wham, slam your opponent and KO him (or her) in seconds. If you are in a tournament, you also want to make sure that you want to avoid an injury that costs you in the next round.

I don't think we are that interested now in discussing function 2.

As for function 3, the strategy is to disable your opponents ASAP with any means available because you never know what they carry or how many of them are in the flock. This is where MAs with the strategy and training that deal with multiple opponents in a small space (such as with a wall on your back) prevail.

I think some of us are confusing no 1 and no 3.

While training in one of those functions may correlate with the effectiveness of another function, I still think that you still need a specific training on each to be effective on each.

A good system will touch all functions with different weight.

I hope this help.

Ummmmm. So just what are you trying to say? I think this material has been covered already. Arghhh here we go again.

Okay we have already established that there are many reasons why people take martial arts.
1) Sport
2) Fitness
3) For a cultural experience
4) To feel better about themselves, oh….I mean spiritual
5) Self-defense
6) ETC.

All these reasons are legitimate.

However the discussion has been sherwin’s KF VS. All other MAs in a no rules street fight. He states he would beat all comers because his KF is so superior to all others but he won’t fight anyone to prove his claims. He spouts theory with the best of them, but theory is only one part of the equation.

Personally I have a problem with anyone declaring any one MA as superior to all others, and all the rest is crap. This just doesn’t sit well with me. I also have a problem with someone spouting off with how good they are, and how superior they are without proving it. Proving it isn’t so easy!

Another problem is these feel good MAs promoting their art as practical self-defense. This really chaps my hide!

All MAs have their good techniques, tactics, and strategies, and their bad (or weak). So because of individual goals, strengths, likes, and dislikes people gravitate to one MA or another. These MAs maybe best for them based on their goals (etc), but this is a far cry from making that art superior.

Now getting back to the equation, there are these things called tangibles:
1) Physical strength (and size weight)
2) Physical conditioning
3) Hard training
4)techniques

Now thhe intangibles.
1) Mental toughness
2) Talents and personal attributes.
3) Luck
4) Murpheys law

Sherwin took none of these into account. Let alone different fighters react in different ways.

Example: You use your rolling fists of thunder and overpower and defeat your opponent, but your next opponent revels in your fists of thunder because you fall right into his trap. Have you ever had a fighter take you out of your game plan? Well I have and it can be quite frustrating. You can’t always have your way anytime you like thing happen and sometimes things just don’t work.

I have said it a hundred times on this forum; it’s not always about the techniques. If you totally rely on techniques then you rely in false security.

In a real life and death situation that erupts suddenly and violently the cognitive brain shuts down. So most of those techniques the ones that rely fine motor skills shut down with it. The primitive brain or reactive brain takes over so you can only truly rely on a small number of simple techniques that rely on gross motor movements. So more is not necessarily better.

What makes a good fighter?
1) Mental toughness
2) Intelligence
3) Proper training
4) Physical toughness
5) Hard training
6) Personal attributes
7) Techniques

* They may not be in this specific order but mental toughness is #1 and techniques are definitely last.

What makes a good self-defense system?
1) One that understands the above 7
2) Mindset
3) Based in science
4) Based in reality
5) Psychology
6) Anatomy, physiology, kinesiology
7) Techniques in all the combat ranges (weapons, striking, clinching (or trapping), and ground
8) Weapons
9) Full contact drills
10) Use of force and the law
11) Realistic scenario training
12) Train for the unpredictable
13) Trains in first aide
14) Training needs to be as real as possible
15) Throw out the crap and keep what works. keep your weapons locker clean and to the bare minimum
16) Keep it simple
17) Progressives or continues to change
18) Survive!

Ask yourself does my MA have this? If you are training for SD then it better! If you are training to feel good then you don’t need these things.

Peyton Quinn once said of traditional arts “They are offering ingenious solutions to nonexistent problems."

[sherwinc]

Ummmmm. So just what are you trying to say? I think this material has been covered already. Arghhh here we go again.

Okay we have already established that there are many reasons why people take martial arts.
1) Sport
2) Fitness
3) For a cultural experience
4) To feel better about themselves, oh….I mean spiritual
5) Self-defense
6) ETC.

All these reasons are legitimate.

However the discussion has been sherwin’s KF VS. All other MAs in a no rules street fight. He states he would beat all comers because his KF is so superior to all others but he won’t fight anyone to prove his claims. He spouts theory with the best of them, but theory is only one part of the equation.

Personally I have a problem with anyone declaring any one MA as superior to all others, and all the rest is crap. This just doesn’t sit well with me. I also have a problem with someone spouting off with how good they are, and how superior they are without proving it. Proving it isn’t so easy!

Another problem is these feel good MAs promoting their art as practical self-defense. This really chaps my hide!

All MAs have their good techniques, tactics, and strategies, and their bad (or weak). So because of individual goals, strengths, likes, and dislikes people gravitate to one MA or another. These MAs maybe best for them based on their goals (etc), but this is a far cry from making that art superior.

Now getting back to the equation, there are these things called tangibles:
1) Physical strength (and size weight)
2) Physical conditioning
3) Hard training
4)techniques

Now thhe intangibles.
1) Mental toughness
2) Talents and personal attributes.
3) Luck
4) Murpheys law

Sherwin took none of these into account. Let alone different fighters react in different ways.

Example: You use your rolling fists of thunder and overpower and defeat your opponent, but your next opponent revels in your fists of thunder because you fall right into his trap. Have you ever had a fighter take you out of your game plan? Well I have and it can be quite frustrating. You can’t always have your way anytime you like thing happen and sometimes things just don’t work.

I have said it a hundred times on this forum; it’s not always about the techniques. If you totally rely on techniques then you rely in false security.

In a real life and death situation that erupts suddenly and violently the cognitive brain shuts down. So most of those techniques the ones that rely fine motor skills shut down with it. The primitive brain or reactive brain takes over so you can only truly rely on a small number of simple techniques that rely on gross motor movements. So more is not necessarily better.

What makes a good fighter?
1) Mental toughness
2) Intelligence
3) Proper training
4) Physical toughness
5) Hard training
6) Personal attributes
7) Techniques

* They may not be in this specific order but mental toughness is #1 and techniques are definitely last.

What makes a good self-defense system?
1) One that understands the above 7
2) Mindset
3) Based in science
4) Based in reality
5) Psychology
6) Anatomy, physiology, kinesiology
7) Techniques in all the combat ranges (weapons, striking, clinching (or trapping), and ground
8) Weapons
9) Full contact drills
10) Use of force and the law
11) Realistic scenario training
12) Train for the unpredictable
13) Trains in first aide
14) Training needs to be as real as possible
15) Throw out the crap and keep what works. keep your weapons locker clean and to the bare minimum
16) Keep it simple
17) Progressives or continues to change
18) Survive!

Ask yourself does my MA have this? If you are training for SD then it better! If you are training to feel good then you don’t need these things.

Peyton Quinn once said of traditional arts “They are offering ingenious solutions to nonexistent problems."

hmmm, better to hear your reasons......

actually, when it comes to power(strength) i have none..... maybe correct execution of attacks and body alignment is my key to power, but physically - i have not gifted in strength.....

but....

when it comes to techniques learned...... i learned only unlimited techniques.....

but i always put it in my mind:
"There is always a talent over a talent"

since i am not that strong .... i assure that all of my targets are all vulnerable points......

truely every person has its own potential - Martial Art style/systems that only fits to him......

[Thai Bri]

You are some sad pencil necked little twerp who peeps under the doors in the Ladies loos. Or the men's.