Shin Conditioning, Iron Palm, Bod-Mod, Boosheet

[osopardo]

I was browsing throught the old threads and I couldn't get over how many threads we've had in the past about shin conditioning.
Seems that a big part of MT lore is about rolling rods and bottles and other assorted paraphernalia on one's legs as part of the training. Also kicking trees is often mentioned. Supposedly, this makes one's legs tougher and thickens the shin bones.

This is very similar to all the stuff you hear about iron palm, iron body, etc.

I once had a boxing coach recommend a mixture of pickle brine and urine to be rubbed on the torso along the ribs in order to toughen the ribs and the skin against body shots. Same guy used to swear that if you pounded your belly while doing leg lifts it would toughen your abs.

Personally, I don't believe any of that stuff works, and if it did, would you really want to? Would you really want to damage your body, deform yourself, lose part of your five senses, just so that in a fight you'll sustain less damage? Feel less pain? That kind of thinking is worse than those extremist survivalists who walk around armed and paranoid 24/7, waiting for the day when their preparedness will finally pay off.

Life's too damn short and too damn hard to actually go out looking for pain.

[osopardo]

moderate conditioning, sure! I'm referring to people who talk about kicking trees and punching boards until their bodies start to become deformed.

I have an old issue of Black Belt magazine whith Hee Il Cho on the cover. His knuckles have these whitish warts on them, like something he should see a doctor about. Gross! Except, iot's not a medical condition, it's calluses he developed intentionally therough his training. And for what? So he can punch harder? Puhleez! He'd be better off lifting weights and doing strength training and when he has to punch somebody (not some poor defenseless piece of wood) hit a soft body part!

[Thai Bri]

I too don't believe in conditioning of that nature. As for shins, kicking reasonably solid bags should go a long way to helping without deforming. And knuckles? Why hit with those if they need conditioning? There are plenty of alternatives.

[osopardo]

... As for shins, kicking reasonably solid bags should go a long way to helping without deforming...

But Bri, go a long way towards what? Developing skill or developing bones? Or deadening nerves? My problem is with the notion that you can "condition" your bones with impact training. I think bag work is good for developing skill, technique, muscle memory. But making bones stronger through impact training? I just don't buy it! Bone density occurs because exercise promotes muscle tone and blood circulation, impact training doesn't build up additional bones anymore than getting hit repeatedly on the ribs develop stronger ribs.

I keep thinking about a big muscular baseball player breaking the bat as he hits a ball (incorrectly) and I keep thinking about retired's leg <<>>.




Anyway, I've been drinking North Carolina moonshine as I write this and the words are swimming before my eyes as I type this


G'nite!!!

[Tom Yum]

Anyway, I've been drinking North Carolina moonshine as I write this and the words are swimming before my eyes as I type this

G'nite!!!

North Carolina Moonshine? That's 2nd rate moonshine....

It should have come from Kentucky or West VA, then yer talking about 1st class moonshine, we're talking XXX on the jug, flipping it over when its empty and blowing a tune over the mouth of the bottle.....lol

Iron palm training would be bad for osopardo, very bad...hehe

[osopardo]

North Carolina Moonshine? That's 2nd rate moonshine....

Don't I know it! That stuff is like rubbing alcohol! But, it's my connection, so...

I stopped drinking just after I typed the above. It's about 4 hours later and I'm just now starting to feel a bit more lucid.

[Tom Yum]

well, your not blind....that's a good sign!

[Uke]

I was browsing throught the old threads and I couldn't get over how many threads we've had in the past about shin conditioning.
Seems that a big part of MT lore is about rolling rods and bottles and other assorted paraphernalia on one's legs as part of the training. Also kicking trees is often mentioned. Supposedly, this makes one's legs tougher and thickens the shin bones.

This is very similar to all the stuff you hear about iron palm, iron body, etc.

I once had a boxing coach recommend a mixture of pickle brine and urine to be rubbed on the torso along the ribs in order to toughen the ribs and the skin against body shots. Same guy used to swear that if you pounded your belly while doing leg lifts it would toughen your abs.

Personally, I don't believe any of that stuff works, and if it did, would you really want to? Would you really want to damage your body, deform yourself, lose part of your five senses, just so that in a fight you'll sustain less damage? Feel less pain? That kind of thinking is worse than those extremist survivalists who walk around armed and paranoid 24/7, waiting for the day when their preparedness will finally pay off.

Life's too damn short and too damn hard to actually go out looking for pain.

Well, that is all part of being a martial artist. Many of the masters I've studied with have deformed knuckles and marked up shins. My knuckles are oversized now but not calcified like my masters. My shins have taken much abuse of the years and are scarred though. Its a sacrifice you make. Masters of jujitsu often need hip and knee replacements due to the constant falling and roll-outs. Many BJJ, wrestlers and other grapplers have acquired colliflower ear, and you'll notice its very noticeable to an observant eye.

All in all, its all a part of the game.

From what I've been told, most of the liniment that people apply doesn't help much anyway. Not that its the wrong type, but they apply it the wrong way. It needs to be prepared, like most things, but many don't do their homework.
Dit Dow Jow is very popular and has been used for years. But guys....it isn't a big secret as ALOT of us have known about it for years in NY. You can find it here in any Chinese shop that sells martial arts books and weapons.

Tiger balm is probably the most popular and affordable, but not the best. In my opinion(and in the opinions of dozens who I've turned onto this) BioFreeze is by far the best for pain and soreness. If you have the money,(and if you can find it), get your hands on BioFreeze. Any athlete will be glad that they did. Also look in acupuncture. Its not voodoo, but it relaxes muscles, increases blood flow to the muscles, plus a wealth of other benefits. Just make sure your acupuncturist is licensed and qualified. Being asian doesn't count as being qualified either. Believe it or not, many people believe that you MUST be asian in order to know your stuff. Then you have those who believe that if you ARE asian, you automatically know your stuff. In either case, it bullcrap.

Do your homework and you'll be able to save yourself alot of pain.

Peace

[Thai Bri]

But Bri, go a long way towards what? Developing skill or developing bones? Or deadening nerves? My problem is with the notion that you can "condition" your bones with impact training. I think bag work is good for developing skill, technique, muscle memory. But making bones stronger through impact training? I just don't buy it! Bone density occurs because exercise promotes muscle tone and blood circulation, impact training doesn't build up additional bones anymore than getting hit repeatedly on the ribs develop stronger ribs.

I missed the bit where I said you could.

[osopardo]

...that is all part of being a martial artist. ...deformed knuckles and marked up shins. My knuckles are oversized now but not calcified like my masters. My shins have taken much abuse of the years and are scarred though. ...Masters of jujitsu often need hip and knee replacements due to the constant falling and roll-outs. Many BJJ, wrestlers and other grapplers have acquired colliflower ear, and you'll notice its very noticeable to an observant eye. All in all, its all a part of the game.

You sound almost proud of it...Resigning yourself to those results only makes sense if m.a. is your career, it's how you make a living. Even then, it only makes sense to avoid those type of results. But if m.a. is something you do as an adjunct to the rest your normal life having scars and calcifications andf bad knees and reduced intelligence from getting hit in the head is just plain stupid and self-indulgent and a bogus way to establish your self worth.

[osopardo]

I missed the bit where I said you could.

Didn't mean you. I was referring to others who do.




Besides, I was drinking earlier when I wrote that.

























I'm better now.

[Thai Bri]

Ya old drunken bear........

[Uke]

You sound almost proud of it...Resigning yourself to those results only makes sense if m.a. is your career, it's how you make a living. Even then, it only makes sense to avoid those type of results. But if m.a. is something you do as an adjunct to the rest your normal life having scars and calcifications andf bad knees and reduced intelligence from getting hit in the head is just plain stupid and self-indulgent and a bogus way to establish your self worth.

No, I am not proud of any injury. However, if you read my post instead of psycho-analyzing it, you'd see that I offered people ways to deal with injuries. As time progresses, new and safer ways to stretch and practice the arts are being developed so that younger warriors won't incur the same fate. No one looks forward to injuries that I know.

However, the reason why most practitioners of arts that are geared towards reality train the way we do is because, well...they're training for reality. You can't train for falls solely on a mat and expect to be able to do that same breakfall in the street. Just like you can't limit yourself to just hitting heavybags and mitts and then expect yourself to be ready for a MMA match.

Ever notice that when a boxer gets into an altercation outside of the ring, while he may win, he usually breaks his hand or wrist? Its because he's accustomed to having his hands wrapped, and wearing gloves. Had he trained without the wraps, he would become accustomed to striking without wraps and he would strengthen his wrists as a result. Of course the probablility of him injuring his wrists during that practice would rise, but he would go into that knowingly.

I was always taught "We're rough on you in the dojo so that you won't run into anything you can't handle on the street." One of the most misunderstood prinicples of the martial arts is conditioning. Many people are searching for some "secret" technique when you've seen many of them, its just that your tools(fists,feet,shins,knees,elbows,fingers,etc) are conditioned to produce the desired effect. That is refered to as "sharpening of the tools".

While I agree that most cannot and will not train in these ways because it is not their profession, many of us have seen and understood the value of this knowledge and have strived to attain it in the physical, and not just in the theoretical. Much like fasting for religion, we all make sacrifices for causes we feel are worthwhile.

Peace

[sslinky]

...Also kicking trees is often mentioned. Supposedly, this makes one's legs tougher and thickens the shin bones.
...
Bone density occurs because exercise promotes muscle tone and blood circulation, impact training doesn't build up additional bones anymore than getting hit repeatedly on the ribs develop stronger ribs.
...
I once had a boxing coach recommend a mixture of pickle brine and urine to be rubbed on the torso along the ribs in order to toughen the ribs and the skin against body shots. Same guy used to swear that if you pounded your belly while doing leg lifts it would toughen your abs.
Personally, I don't believe any of that stuff works, and if it did, would you really want to? ...

Well kicking trees is probably a bit excessive, but it's a well known fact that impact strengthens bones. This is not because "exercise promotes muscle tone and blood circulation", it is a reaction to bones being put under stress. For example, a swimmer may be aerobically fit, but won't have particularly strong bones because there is little or no impact in swimming, whereas a runner, for example, will have strong/dense leg bones (and weaker upper body bones) because of impact generated between his legs and the floor. Punching and kicking stuff involves the same mechanism, it's just a slightly different action.
"Pounding your belly" also helps build up your stomach muscles, not due to the impact, but due to the fact that you have to keep the muscles tense so you don't get winded. It just makes the sit-ups/leg-lifts a bit more intense.
I think your mate was having a laugh with the urine thing tho!
I agree that there are limits though, wrt deformities etc.

[osopardo]

Well kicking trees is probably a bit excessive, but it's a well known fact that impact strengthens bones. .

Correction: it is a popular belief - definitely not a fact.
I mean, everybody talks about it, nobody has yet provided medical or scientific proof.

And your assertions regarding swimmers and runners; again, show me the facts. I haven't found anything to support those ideas and, believe me, I've looked.

I'm not looking for an arguement, I'm looking for credible, non-anecdotal, proof that these techniques do or do not work. And I will gladly accept whatever can be reasonably proven true. "I'm ready to believe you!"