is muay thai really that good

[HtTKar]

Please, prove your case and tell me why you think Muay Thai is a better delivery system than Wing Chun

Here in lies the flaw. This is the reason that people are arguing with you. It is not about whether WC is better than MT or versa. The thread is about is MT really that good when it comes to S&D. How can you say that any MA practitioner would be able to protect themselves (except TKD), but WC is the best? That is completely irrational.

I do not take TKD, nor have I ever. However, it is taught in the same manner as WC. It is soft. It teaches you to believe that even if you're in a wheel chair with a broken back you can deflect a professional fighters punch or kick with one hand. There is no stress involved, other than competing with yourself for perfection of techniques.

In every dojo I've been to. These "Old" guys, are definitely NOT cripples. These guys are hard as steel, and can usually outwork most of the younger guys. Their technique is impeccable, and they have devoted their entire life to the persuit of perfection in their art. They might not have all the enthusiasm, but their energy is focused and direct. When teaching you techniques, these guys can hurt you in slow motion. They have been hardening their body since the dinosaur ages.

Every Martial Art has its dirty techniques. The old guys know them all. They do not NEED to be in perfect shape, but I assure you; most of them are in better shape than the average joe.

Also, MT practitioners do not NEED to purposefully harden their shins, no more than WC guys need to harden their arms, or Karate guys harden thier knuckles. This could all be accomplished just by actually fighting, and training. But does it help to make you better prepared....obviously.

When confronted with real situations, your brain will respond to its training. Does your MA teach you to be scared? If not, your brain will NOT be tricked. This is something that you have NOT trained for. You will flinch or freeze, maybe too long. Maybe you get lucky. Any MA can be good at teaching S&D, as long as it actually teaches S&D. If you want to learn Self Defense, it would be better to take a self defense course.

[sihing]

Here in lies the flaw. This is the reason that people are arguing with you. It is not about whether WC is better than MT or versa. The thread is about is MT really that good when it comes to S&D. How can you say that any MA practitioner would be able to protect themselves (except TKD), but WC is the best? That is completely irrational.

I do not take TKD, nor have I ever. However, it is taught in the same manner as WC. It is soft. It teaches you to believe that even if you're in a wheel chair with a broken back you can deflect a professional fighters punch or kick with one hand. There is no stress involved, other than competing with yourself for perfection of techniques.

In every dojo I've been to. These "Old" guys, are definitely NOT cripples. These guys are hard as steel, and can usually outwork most of the younger guys. Their technique is impeccable, and they have devoted their entire life to the persuit of perfection in their art. They might not have all the enthusiasm, but their energy is focused and direct. When teaching you techniques, these guys can hurt you in slow motion. They have been hardening their body since the dinosaur ages.

Every Martial Art has its dirty techniques. The old guys know them all. They do not NEED to be in perfect shape, but I assure you; most of them are in better shape than the average joe.

Also, MT practitioners do not NEED to purposefully harden their shins, no more than WC guys need to harden their arms, or Karate guys harden thier knuckles. This could all be accomplished just by actually fighting, and training. But does it help to make you better prepared....obviously.

When confronted with real situations, your brain will respond to its training. Does your MA teach you to be scared? If not, your brain will NOT be tricked. This is something that you have NOT trained for. You will flinch or freeze, maybe too long. Maybe you get lucky. Any MA can be good at teaching S&D, as long as it actually teaches S&D. If you want to learn Self Defense, it would be better to take a self defense course.

There's nothing irrational about my opinion of Wing Chun effectiveness. Fighting or Self Defense is a science like most anything else, IMO. Something’s are proven to be less efficient and effective. Here's a simple example, some systems/styles of Martial art advocate blocking then hitting, a 2 beat movement. Others advocate either hitting while being hit, stop hitting, or simultaneously attacking & defending, 1 beat. Now which is the faster movement and or reaction? The second one is, so if you begin your training on a faster concept, rather than a slower one, then you will obtain more efficiency in everything you do. Personally I believe Wing Chun is all about efficiency and effectiveness more so than most other MA, it is very scientific and has been refined to the point of absolute efficiency and effectiveness with less reliance on physical attributes, like speed and strength or stamina. But pay attention to the word I used, LESS. In a self defense or fighting environment you can't be moving slowly, you have to move fast and decisively or else your opponent will pick up on your action and counter. The Wing Chun system is a fast moving system, which means the movements are based on using less space and energy to get the job done. The Wing Chun straight punch for example is a faster movement than the boxing hook punch, because it has to travel less distance and requires less space to generate power, this is efficiency.

All Martial Arts are effective up to a point, and it is a fact that some are more effective than others. To me TKD is a basic level Martial Art and that is only my opinion, but if I fight a TKD practitioner in their range which is kicking range then I will have more chance of losing to them because this is where they like to fight and are trained in the range. Problem is most fights happen closer in to each other, even Ali couldn't keep people from clinching or infighting with him, so I'd rather have a basic knowledge of the kicking range and more knowledge of the closer ranges of combat.


James

[Garland]

aha! another interesting point. Since most fights happen in close...don't the majority of fights also go to the ground?

I'm sure that you guys will be able to realize that neither pure muay thai nor wing chun will be able to help very much in a prone position.

To be fully prepared for a self defense type situation, one must be profficient in all ranges. Muay thai is great because it is a complete stand-up art, complete with striking, clinche, and even some throws, breaks, and chokes that you usually don't see...but are in there if you pay extra close attention to an experienced and technically sound practitioner.

Wing Chun has all sorts of ways to break down an opponent's base and make the trapping it employs a great deal easier...it also employs many techniques that are unfit for sport and many low-key self defense situations, i.e. the bil jee or a lop sao-thumb jab combo...etc etc.

The funny thing is...these arts can be made to compliment each other if you isolate techniques and cross train them the right way.

I take Jun Fan Gung Fu and JKD along with Muay Thai and the FMA, and a little shooto and BJJ for ground, and my instructor will actually show us how to intertwine and weave these arts to work for us and make us proficient and sound fighters at any range...

be it with weapons...Kali (Inosanto blend, Lacosta, Dikiti Tirsia, Sayoc)
standing (boxing, Muay Thai, and some kicks from the Korean martial arts...which work if you know how to employ them in a muay thai match with muay thai)
trapping (Wing Chun and Jun Fan Gung Fu / Jeet Kune Do, also kali at this range)
Grappling (Shooto, BJJ, FMA, including dumog type things, and breaks/chokes)

Now...This is a curriculum...this is how you become a great fighter, not by bickering about which style is better, but seeing the strengths and weaknesses of a particular style, and cross training out the reciprical, and tossing it out, or keeping it for style points.

[TheDeadlySquid]

Here's an Idea

Maybe you should ask Quinton Jackson if "Muay Thai is really that good", but you should probably wait until he wakes up.

From Sherdog.com

"Wanderlei Silva, 28, drilled a vicious fight-ending knee to the face of challenger Quinton Jackson, 26, Sunday night in Tokyo, Japan to retain his PRIDE middleweight title. Following a crunching right hook that propelled Jackson backwards, Silva moved in for the kill.

Securing a Thai-clinch, the 205-pound champion fired a series of knees towards Jackson's head. When the barrage ended, an unconscious Jackson dangled face-down between the ropes, his face a bloody mess. "

TheDeadlySquid

[Garland]

Silva has something special...he's a sadist. He is cold, calculated, and a genuine killer. He has the right mentality for a street fight every time he walks into the ring. Just look at his eyes. Sweet Jesus...

[TheDeadlySquid]

Oh Yeah

Silva has something special...he's a sadist. He is cold, calculated, and a genuine killer. He has the right mentality for a street fight every time he walks into the ring. Just look at his eyes. Sweet Jesus...

As Couture said, "They don't call him the Axe Murderer for nothing."

TheDeadlySquid

[Ikken Hisatsu]

apparently hes a real nice guy outside of the ring. but damn, I would never step up against him. unless he was asleep from horse tranq or something. and sihing, you still havent proved WHY wing chun is more "efficient". you've stated some crap about refinement (how long has muay thai been around compared to wing chun? you realise that krabbi kabong, of which muay thai is the unarmed part, has been used for hundreds of years to train soldiers in thailand who have been almost constantly at war?) and something you dreamed up about a straight punch being more powerful than a hook (why dont you go and find out what actually causes a knock out from a hook.... it isnt just force. but of course, you would know that right?)

and then, you back up your claims with absolutely no physical evidence. you only have to look at fighting sports to see the effectiveness of MT techniques- the roundhouse, knees, elbows, of MT are constantly shown to work. wing chun is not.

[EmptyneSs]

muay thai is one of the most battle tested arts that exists. this is a fact, and its been proven to be effective over and over again.

as for wing chun, i am not very familiar with it so i cant make a comparison, but muay thai is a an awesome art.

[EmptyneSs]

http://members.aol.com/Thaiboxing2000/muay.html

check out that page, learn about muay thai.

[sihing]

apparently hes a real nice guy outside of the ring. but damn, I would never step up against him. unless he was asleep from horse tranq or something. and sihing, you still havent proved WHY wing chun is more "efficient". you've stated some crap about refinement (how long has muay thai been around compared to wing chun? you realise that krabbi kabong, of which muay thai is the unarmed part, has been used for hundreds of years to train soldiers in thailand who have been almost constantly at war?) and something you dreamed up about a straight punch being more powerful than a hook (why dont you go and find out what actually causes a knock out from a hook.... it isnt just force. but of course, you would know that right?)

and then, you back up your claims with absolutely no physical evidence. you only have to look at fighting sports to see the effectiveness of MT techniques- the roundhouse, knees, elbows, of MT are constantly shown to work. wing chun is not.

First of all I can't prove anything on an internet forum when discussing fighting arts, I can only write about the concepts and principals behind the art, and this is the same for everyone from every MA.

In trying to "prove my case" about WC being the most efficient and effective MA, I will use just one example, the Wing Chun punch. #1)it uses the fastest and most efficient movement, straight lines, which is the fastest way from point A to B. #2)the punch/es are non telegraphic, which means there is no windup or precursor to the execution to the movement of the punch, which means the opponent will have less time to react to it due to no clues being given away of its coming towards him.#3)the punches allow the WC practitioner to actually move and punch at the same time in any direction, whether following up or retreating. Fighters that need to twist their hips or rotate their shoulders cannot move and punch in the same motion. Try walking and punching (quick punching per say, not one punch per step because this is way to slow), you can't twist your hip from right to left (in a counter clockwise motion) and throw the left cross at the sametime. #4) the punching movements allow easy transition from offence to defense, in other words I can interrupt my movements easier when punching this way and do something else like defend something coming towards me. #5) the punch is short and doesn't require much room to generate power, which means I can wait longer and be closer to my opponent and then start to punch them, which gives them less time to react and gives me less space to move through to reach my target, meaning its a faster movement again, more efficient and effective.#6)using the vertical fist allows me to hit harder without breaking my hand, as compared to the horizontal fist, which is a weaker structure, more effective body mechanics here. Now the above is just showing the advantages of one aspect of the Wing Chun system, I could go on and on about the other aspects...Stayed tuned...

Wing Chun has been battled tested, but more on the street where there is less publicity, since as far as I know streetfighting can land one in jail....It's not necessarily a art meant for sportfighting but it can be adapted. One of our junior students entered a competition a couple of years ago, a full contact event fight MT guys at his same level and experience. Firstly he got warned for hitting them too much, lol, being to aggressive, so he slowed it down a bit and still won the event. But I know that means nothing on a forum like this right?

James

[Ikken Hisatsu]

he got told to be less aggressive in a MT fight? yeah. sure. anecdotal evidence, especially when it sounds as bullshit as that, doesnt count for anything. and the punch you just described is a basic arm punch that every moe off the street tries to use, and generally fails because there is no power in it. I can throw a bunch of piss weak punches as well with no body movement. there is a good reason for not doing this though. your reasoning is still running along "well its just better cos I think so" which is not an arguement you can use with any credibility. go and find a reason or a fact as to WHY wing chun is better. or piss off. and you can use examples. there is a lethora of vdeo clips on the internet of fights, both street and ring. I have seen extensive use of boxing, judo, muay thai and BJJ in both kinds- never any wing chun though, except for that guy in the early UFC's who got knocked the **** out in about 20 seconds. he used the deadly wing chun iron face to block his opponents fist, and only tapped to save his opponents hands

[EmptyneSs]

First of all I can't prove anything on an internet forum when discussing fighting arts, I can only write about the concepts and principals behind the art, and this is the same for everyone from every MA.

In trying to "prove my case" about WC being the most efficient and effective MA, I will use just one example, the Wing Chun punch. #1)it uses the fastest and most efficient movement, straight lines, which is the fastest way from point A to B. #2)the punch/es are non telegraphic, which means there is no windup or precursor to the execution to the movement of the punch, which means the opponent will have less time to react to it due to no clues being given away of its coming towards him.#3)the punches allow the WC practitioner to actually move and punch at the same time in any direction, whether following up or retreating. Fighters that need to twist their hips or rotate their shoulders cannot move and punch in the same motion. Try walking and punching (quick punching per say, not one punch per step because this is way to slow), you can't twist your hip from right to left (in a counter clockwise motion) and throw the left cross at the sametime. #4) the punching movements allow easy transition from offence to defense, in other words I can interrupt my movements easier when punching this way and do something else like defend something coming towards me. #5) the punch is short and doesn't require much room to generate power, which means I can wait longer and be closer to my opponent and then start to punch them, which gives them less time to react and gives me less space to move through to reach my target, meaning its a faster movement again, more efficient and effective.#6)using the vertical fist allows me to hit harder without breaking my hand, as compared to the horizontal fist, which is a weaker structure, more effective body mechanics here. Now the above is just showing the advantages of one aspect of the Wing Chun system, I could go on and on about the other aspects...Stayed tuned...

Wing Chun has been battled tested, but more on the street where there is less publicity, since as far as I know streetfighting can land one in jail....It's not necessarily a art meant for sportfighting but it can be adapted. One of our junior students entered a competition a couple of years ago, a full contact event fight MT guys at his same level and experience. Firstly he got warned for hitting them too much, lol, being to aggressive, so he slowed it down a bit and still won the event. But I know that means nothing on a forum like this right?

James

i dont know much about wc, but from what u just described it doesnt sound like its that good. yeah great, u can throw a ton of weak punches. those weak ass punches arent gonna do shit vs someone thats bigger, or hopped up on drugs and alcohal, or is raging like a bull.

[MAfans]

it's weaks by depending how u train, yes initially it's weak, but the WC guys train with a way that strengthen their punch. In my ex-school, advanced student can use their chi with the punch.

[EmptyneSs]

In my ex-school, advanced student can use their chi with the punch.

uh, sure bud.

[MAfans]

i know that it doesnt sounds real, ut u can check at the website: www.shaolinwingchun.com