Ontario rules for muay thai styles competition

[WEI_KHRU]

Hi all, I was just wondering about the rules and regulations of muay thai in Ont, Canada. I heard there was to be no elbow's or knee's allowed when holding a tournament. If so how can that be changed and who to contact if I wanted to hold a competition? THNX

[SimonM]

Kickboxing tournaments are presently illegal in Canada. That includes MT and MMA tournaments.

[chalambok]

I think SimonM is wrong. I know several fighters from Oregon who will be travelling to Vancouver BC on the 19th of March to fight full-contact, muay Thai rules. WEI-KHRU, you can contact Mike Sweeney in Kingston, ON: sensei@canadas-best.com to check on local rules. He has people fighting all the time, and also can point you to other muay Thai instructors in Ontario and the rest of Canada. Mike Miles in Calgary has been putting muay Thai fights on for years, usually a championship event once every 3 months. If you are interested in MMA, contact Mr Philip Gelinas at kenbocan@dsuper.net. He trained at Chakiriki Gym in Amsterdam, and his school/instructors/students are first-rate and fight all the time.

[OctaviousBP]

Try CAMTAO. They are the only sanctioning body in Ontario. If that doesn't work, you can ask questions through this email address: cam_taovp@hotmail.com. Muay Thai fights are definately NOT illegal in Canada. Good luck with your event, and keep us posted as to when it is.

[WEI_KHRU]

Thanks all for the reply. The problem I'm facing is that I want to hold a tournament for Pradal Serei the orginal form of Muay Thai. A quick history lesson, Muay Thai is a khmer martial art from Cambodia, Muay in khmer means "one". But since Cambodia went through war Thailand exploited the martial art and commercialize it as their own. Wei Khru, "wei" pronounced whai, means "to strike" and "khru" means "teacher" in khmer = striking teacher. But my point is I've been told to go through a Muay Thai network when in fact its a khmer martial art where the rules are more violent. Does that mean there has to be a Pradal Serei Association that I have to contact or form? And if so do I have to conatct a Boxing Sport Association for rules to be made? I'm so lost....

[Garland]

Thanks all for the reply. The problem I'm facing is that I want to hold a tournament for Pradal Serei the orginal form of Muay Thai. A quick history lesson, Muay Thai is a khmer martial art from Cambodia, Muay in khmer means "one". But since Cambodia went through war Thailand exploited the martial art and commercialize it as their own. Wei Khru, "wei" pronounced whai, means "to strike" and "khru" means "teacher" in khmer = striking teacher. But my point is I've been told to go through a Muay Thai network when in fact its a khmer martial art where the rules are more violent. Does that mean there has to be a Pradal Serei Association that I have to contact or form? And if so do I have to conatct a Boxing Sport Association for rules to be made? I'm so lost....

...man...now you guys have got me confused!
So...Lethwei (Burmese Boxing)....is that the same as Pradal Serei?
Now...as for the thai art...I've always heard different stories as to the origin of muay thai...some say it came out of Burma as Lethwei...others as a progression of Krabbi Krabrong minus the weapons...originally as Muay Boran and presently into Muay Thai...
Anyway...you simply cannot say Muay thai is a khmer martial art....it is thai, regardless of the origin of it's counterparts, or components for that matter. Otherwise I could say that any Japanese art is a Chinese art because of the lineage and it's history. viz. I could say Gracie Jiu Jitsu is a Japanese art...but really a chinese art due to the arts the proceeded it...and perhaps even give credit to mongolian wrestling...etc.

Muay THAI...key word there...Thai.
Pradal Serei = Pradal Serei
Lethwei = Burmese boxing
Muay Thai = muay thai

And WTF is Bando and Yaw Yan???

[Khun Kao]

"A quick history lesson, Muay Thai is a khmer martial art from Cambodia, Muay in khmer means "one". But since Cambodia went through war Thailand exploited the martial art and commercialize it as their own."

A quick clue: You're wrong.

As Garland already pointed out. Muay Thai is Thai in origin. The Khmer arts of "Muay" are Khmer in origin. Just because Muay Thai and the Khmer "Muay" share many similarities is not evidence that Thailand "stole" the art. The various arts developed side by side, influencing one another especially since the Thai's, Khmers, Burmese, etc were constantly at war with one another.

For what its worth, I understand that Muay Boran is a modern interpretation of the older "bare knuckle" arts. So is Mae Mai Muay Thai. If I understand it correctly, these arts or schools were developed as a way of Thailand to preserve its fighting heritage.

[WEI_KHRU]

A quick clue: You're wrong.

As Garland already pointed out. Muay Thai is Thai in origin. The Khmer arts of "Muay" are Khmer in origin. Just because Muay Thai and the Khmer "Muay" share many similarities is not evidence that Thailand "stole" the art. The various arts developed side by side, influencing one another especially since the Thai's, Khmers, Burmese, etc were constantly at war with one another.

For what its worth, I understand that Muay Boran is a modern interpretation of the older "bare knuckle" arts. So is Mae Mai Muay Thai. If I understand it correctly, these arts or schools were developed as a way of Thailand to preserve its fighting heritage.[/QUOTE]

WOW, already getting wrong facts. Seems like this will never end, I've talked to muay thai kru's and they seem to push me back when I tell them that muay thai is khmer. First off I would like you people to know that this is way off topic. What you believe is what you've been told.
I'm doing research on Pradal Serei and planning to write a book on it, I used to be a muay thai boxer till I met people who claimed it came from the khmer people. I went to Cambodia to see for myself, on the temples there are stone carvings that dated back to the 8th century, but Thailand never came from China till the 12th century and formed known as Sukhothai after the a khmer king named the new country after his peasant wife. Then it went through a few name changes but changed from the kingdom of Siam to Thailand in 1939. So here's the question, what was the name before it was known as Muay Thai? Muay Siam? I dont think so...
I've leared a few khmer words and found that Muay means "one". So when the khmers and siams fought the would yell out muay khmer and muay siam, meaning khmers number 1 and siams number 1. Thats where muay came from, and even the word siam is a khmer word given by the chinese khmer's livin there. If you disagree please feel free to reply with good reasons. I used to be defensive like you guys till I went to see the other side of the story.

[academian]

Thanks all for the reply. The problem I'm facing is that I want to hold a tournament for Pradal Serei the orginal form of Muay Thai. A quick history lesson, Muay Thai is a khmer martial art from Cambodia, Muay in khmer means "one". But since Cambodia went through war Thailand exploited the martial art and commercialize it as their own. Wei Khru, "wei" pronounced whai, means "to strike" and "khru" means "teacher" in khmer = striking teacher. But my point is I've been told to go through a Muay Thai network when in fact its a khmer martial art where the rules are more violent. Does that mean there has to be a Pradal Serei Association that I have to contact or form? And if so do I have to conatct a Boxing Sport Association for rules to be made? I'm so lost....

how many people are proficent in this obscure art? who would compete?

More info:Muay Khmer? Never heard of that. There's a long name for it in Khmer something along the lines of Kbach Pradal Serei Boran or something like that. I just watched a video on Thai Kickboxing and one of the moves is called the Hanuman something. Hanuman is the Hindu monkey god. I don't believe Thai's were ever Hindu. Anyways, based on historical facts from etchings on the walls of Angkor suggest that it originated in Cambodia. Thai's adopted the art and then later commercialized it under the "Muay Thai" name. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Check out this video clip of Phnom Yeerum, the star of Ong Bak. This dude does some crazy stuff.

http://lesjeuneskhmers.free.fr/tony...nyjaa_reims.WMV

Is this what you are talking about?????

[Khun Kao]

Actually, you do NOT have your facts right. I will be the first to admit that I am not an authority on this subject. But, I am acquainted with someone who is arguably one of the most well researched authorities on the history of the Southeast Asian bareknuckle fighting arts and how they developed into modern day ring sports, and have been told by him that there is no evidence to support the claim that the Muay Thai was originally a Khmer art. He is also writing a comprehensive book on the subject to be entitled "The Vanishing Flame".

I will ask him if he approves of me giving you his email address. Since you, too, are interested in writing a book on the subject, perhaps he would be willing to discuss your research with you and share some of his resources.

[Khun Kao]

TIMELINE OF THAI HISTORY

3600 BC Bronze age culture at Ban Chiang, near Udon. This is possibly the oldest Bronze Age culture on Earth.

600 B.C. Chinese T'ai migration recorded

300 B.C. Indian migration recorded

01 AD - 1000 AD By the 1st century AD Indian traders to the Indochina peninsula had brought the Hindu religion to Thailand. By the tenth century the Mons, from what is today Burma, had established themselves in Central Thailand and had established small Buddhist kingdoms in an area from Nakhon Pathon ( on the Korat Plateau ) to Chiang Mai.

1150 Suriyavarman II built Angkor Wat, just south and east of Thailand in today's Cambodia.

1238 First Thai Kingdom without Khmer domination, "Dawn of Happiness", Sukhothai, in the North Central region of present Thailand.

1283 Thai Alphabet, using as a basis the Mon, Khmer and Indian scripts.

1350 - 1767 Ayutthaya Period. Capital, 55 kms north of present day Bangkok.

Alright, I decided to do a little research myself. Seems that you and I each have some valid points based purely on historical fact. One point is that the Thai's were settled in Thailand BEFORE the 12th century. As a matter of fact, if you look at the above timeline, you will see that the Thai tribes settled in what is now Thailand around 600 BC. Indian tribes settled there in 300 BC, and as you should well know, the Thai culture is greatly influenced by the Indian/Hindu culture.

Fast forward to your point about the 12th century. That is when the first Thai kingdom was formed. That is NOT when the Thai's first settled in the area. According to history, prior to the Thai's creating their own first kingdom, they were ruled by the Khmers. So obviously there was a great deal of cultural exchange. But that does not mean that the Thai's "stole" Muay Khmer, called it Muay Thai and then mass marketed it.

To expand a little bit from what I recall of my conversations with my learned friend, the basic underlying point is that no one culture can be solely attributed as the origination of what is now Muay Thai. The cultures of SE Asia influenced each other. They each had their own fighting arts, but the varying fighting arts influenced one another when they met in battle or in fighting contests.

There simply is no definitive proof that Muay Thai ORIGINATED anywhere but Thailand. Just because the Cambodians (Khmers) have temple art dating to way back that looks identical to Muay Thai does NOT mean that they created it.

In any case, I do concede that I did get a bit defensive earlier. However, you did post in a Muay Thai forum that the Thai's stole the Khmer art of Muay. What did you expect from us? That'd we all accept your word and change the forum's name from Thaiboxing to Khmerboxing?

Peace

[WEI_KHRU]

how many people are proficent in this obscure art? who would compete?

More info:Muay Khmer? Never heard of that. There's a long name for it in Khmer something along the lines of Kbach Pradal Serei Boran or something like that. I just watched a video on Thai Kickboxing and one of the moves is called the Hanuman something. Hanuman is the Hindu monkey god. I don't believe Thai's were ever Hindu. Anyways, based on historical facts from etchings on the walls of Angkor suggest that it originated in Cambodia. Thai's adopted the art and then later commercialized it under the "Muay Thai" name. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Check out this video clip of Phnom Yeerum, the star of Ong Bak. This dude does some crazy stuff.

http://lesjeuneskhmers.free.fr/tony...nyjaa_reims.WMV

Is this what you are talking about?????

who would compete? already there has been a small movement that wants to promote the art. Your right about Kbach Goun Pradal Serei Boran (just missing the goun part which means "style or technique". And the move called Hanuman is the hindu god. That style of fighting is a small part of a missing link. In Pradal Serei there are 5 main styles, the monkey, the water buffalo, the tiger, rooster, and the cobra which also came from the naga neak (9 headed cobra).
Siam's were hidu once only beacause when they were banished from china to the Younan mountains and then they went south, intergrated with the khmers who were at that time were hindu in the 1160. So this also is a clue as to where they came from and how they got their culture. Thai's never stole the art and culture but learned it from the khmers and less than a century seperated and became indepandant from them beacause khmers fully converted to a Buddist. Not only were the Siam's offened by the culture change but also the Cham's who later became enemies to the khmers.
ONG BAK!! Love that movie, I've seen in Cambodia, but since I don't speak much khmer (I'm a Brit, only english). The action was great. Phnom Yeerum came from Surin that once was a khmer province till the French gave it to Thailand. I heard he's in Australia doing another movie the biggest budget in Thai history. Can't wait.

[WEI_KHRU]

Actually, you do NOT have your facts right. I will be the first to admit that I am not an authority on this subject. But, I am acquainted with someone who is arguably one of the most well researched authorities on the history of the Southeast Asian bareknuckle fighting arts and how they developed into modern day ring sports, and have been told by him that there is no evidence to support the claim that the Muay Thai was originally a Khmer art. He is also writing a comprehensive book on the subject to be entitled "The Vanishing Flame".

I will ask him if he approves of me giving you his email address. Since you, too, are interested in writing a book on the subject, perhaps he would be willing to discuss your research with you and share some of his resources.

I think I know who you are talking about, hmm user name black diamond cobra? If so I had the honour a few years back. Haven't read the book since I was living in Cambodia doing research. Thanks

[WEI_KHRU]

In any case, I do concede that I did get a bit defensive earlier. However, you did post in a Muay Thai forum that the Thai's stole the Khmer art of Muay. What did you expect from us? That'd we all accept your word and change the forum's name from Thaiboxing to Khmerboxing?

Peace[/QUOTE]

first off I did not say Thai's stole the khmer art, I said that the word muay is a khmer word as does wei kru (wei khru) and siam and other words, these are little clues. But many khmers feel that the thai's stole the art and claimed it as theirs not me. You cannot dispute that Muay thai has exploited the martial art and commercialize it as their own. Khmers feel that they should get credit for the art that they invented and the name muay thai should be removed. When the khmers went through the killing fields, many lives were lost and when they recovered they spend money fixing the country and not on commercialize Pradal Serei.
The Siam's came from china and the khmers took them in when the mongolians attacked them. Since the Mongolians and khmers had battles before the mongolians dare not fight again. This is where the hatred and grudges started even to this day, with the Burma and thai. When the Siam's settled in a khmer prince married a Siam peasant girl named Sukhothai and named the new country kingdom of Sukhothai founded in 1238. The main reason for the seperation was religion. khmers left Hindu to become full Buddist. So in a sense the first Thai king was a khmer who killed his own brother for his province, and thats why if you look at the history Siam's seem to pop out of nowhere. The khmers were great warriors who fought off the mongolians who then pleaded a treaty when they failed to go around to the south to get the chinese in the Jin dynasty. This is why the mongolians have a saying "the south is where the riches and heavens freedom" , also the main reason why they point their doors to the south for good fortune (back then khmer temples where all gold leafed). A little off topic here? I think so
I only came to this forum to get info and contacts for a group of pradal serei fighters who want to compete, but they feel that some muay thai people in the circle are holding them back refusing to talk to them. I did not mean to offend people, at first I myself was defensive about muay thai when people told me that it's a khmer art. But I ended some how talking to the person who started the movement, Sam Lok. He believes that Thai's should keep muay thai as their own, and khmers start their own Pradal Serei. But thats where the trouble started, most of his khmer students refused that idea and that khmers should reclaim the art. His teachings stopped for years because khmers felt he lost pride and honour. But now he's back at it again, trying to bring back Pradal Serei and not concerned about Muay Thai. I'm doing this for his small group of followers before I go back to Cambodia with my wife. A white man in the jungles (some khmers are scared of the white man than the jungle, haha)

[Garland]

A quick clue: You're wrong.

As Garland already pointed out. Muay Thai is Thai in origin. The Khmer arts of "Muay" are Khmer in origin. Just because Muay Thai and the Khmer "Muay" share many similarities is not evidence that Thailand "stole" the art. The various arts developed side by side, influencing one another especially since the Thai's, Khmers, Burmese, etc were constantly at war with one another.

For what its worth, I understand that Muay Boran is a modern interpretation of the older "bare knuckle" arts. So is Mae Mai Muay Thai. If I understand it correctly, these arts or schools were developed as a way of Thailand to preserve its fighting heritage.

WOW, already getting wrong facts. Seems like this will never end, I've talked to muay thai kru's and they seem to push me back when I tell them that muay thai is khmer. First off I would like you people to know that this is way off topic. What you believe is what you've been told.
I'm doing research on Pradal Serei and planning to write a book on it, I used to be a muay thai boxer till I met people who claimed it came from the khmer people. I went to Cambodia to see for myself, on the temples there are stone carvings that dated back to the 8th century, but Thailand never came from China till the 12th century and formed known as Sukhothai after the a khmer king named the new country after his peasant wife. Then it went through a few name changes but changed from the kingdom of Siam to Thailand in 1939. So here's the question, what was the name before it was known as Muay Thai? Muay Siam? I dont think so...
I've leared a few khmer words and found that Muay means "one". So when the khmers and siams fought the would yell out muay khmer and muay siam, meaning khmers number 1 and siams number 1. Thats where muay came from, and even the word siam is a khmer word given by the chinese khmer's livin there. If you disagree please feel free to reply with good reasons. I used to be defensive like you guys till I went to see the other side of the story. [/QUOTE]

Although this is an interesting and plausible argument...there's probably a little more to it. It's an art, no country or nation owns it. I'm sure that muay thai has evolved just as it did in 1939 and with the import of western boxing gloves, and now with western boxing techniques, when it was developing.

It is practiced the way it is in thailand as muay thai. There are several different schools and camps in thailand that practice almost what you would call different styles, and all of which are distinctly different from the arts of
the surrounding countries.

Sure, lethwei and the khmer art share similarities, as these techniques were likely tossed back and forth between the nations as they were so close in proximity. What you have is perhaps an original art from God knows where, maybe the philippenes for all I know, evolving and being changed over time and through wars and having changes added onto it.

It's like animal evolution. A species changing over time, some lines dying out, others branching off.
Eventually you have several arts with several similar characteristics, like the organisms within a genus, but all are distinctly different animals.

Of course there is no such thing as a historiographical truth. There is data to back up either side of the argument, and it's almost better for one to decide upon a generalized policy of pyronian skepticism.

That's me just saying, lets agree to disagree until we can come across more concrete and certifiable primary sources for our respective arguments.

Good luck on the book, by the way, when it's done, consider my check in the mail, sounds like a fascinating read.