My kicks are whips....

[Hardball]

Well that's not the whole truth. There are different levels to be reached I would say. FIRST you learn to throw the kick on the bag, that is towards a static target. Then you learn to do it against a moving target in light sparring. Then to an opponent that might try to avoid you kick and moves in and out of range, which means you have to maintain a proper stance and always have correct balance so you can throw your kick at will.
When you can do that the next level is in an actual match, where the guy across the ring is trying to hit you as hard as he can... the first time this happens, technique goes flying out the window, and your arsenal is decimated.
The techniques you have used and trained the most will be the ones you actually use in a match.
So what I'm saying is just because you can kick the bag hard, does not mean you can actually use that technique in a fight or match, because so many more things are involved and keeping your mind busy... so it's not that easy

Oh and your trainer probably means you technique is good at your level. But you must keep perfecting it until it feels as natural as breathing.
When you feel totally relaxed as you throw the kick, and you can throw 10 kicks in a row with full force without loosing balance, then you can consider yourself as having pretty good technique (on the pads, not in match). When I say 10 kicks in a row I don't mean kick pause kick pause... I mean that as soon as your kicking leg lands you kick again.
Btw, that is a good way to learn how to kick relaxed. Throw 5 kicks in a row then pause... 5 kicks then pause.. All kicks should be equally hard.

You are what I would call a kicking specialist. A jujitsu man or akido man or even a wing chun man may not need to be this good because he/she has so many other options in his fighting arsenal. I don't kick no where near as good as a TKD black belt; in fact I would pay money for a kicking improvement seminar. I Never see those offered---ie: kicking seminars.

Me, I'm shodan in JJJ and I appreciate your feed back. Do you know of any kicking seminars in the dc/new york corridor?

[gabbah]

Anyone can appear to be anything on the web...
I'm just sharing what I know about kicking, but I'm no expert. Probably a hard kicker for my weight class, but no expert.
I'm not sure what your point is when you say people from other styles don't need to kick that well, because they're good at other things?
What level is shodan and what is JJJ? Some form of jujitsu?

Sorry don't know any seminars, I live in Sweden.

[Khun Kao]

Well, Gabbah does have some good advice (though he and I choose to say the same things different ways), but as he says, the information being shared here really isn't advanced technique. This is basic MuayThai. This is the kind of thing that you should be being taught in your first 6 months or so of training (give or take a little).

It might seem more advanced than what a Jujustu or WingTsun stylist may use, but this may be because MuayThai predominantly uses just 2 kicks. So rather than learning Front Kick, Side Kick, Back Kick, Round House Kick, Crescent Kick In, Crescent Kick Out, Hook Kicks, etc, etc.... in MuayThai, we mostly use the Roundhouse Kick and Push Kick.

So perhaps learning the "basics" of these kicks just seems more complicated because we end up focusing on the details of just 2 kicks rather than trying to teach you 5+ different kicks....

And just to be clear, depending on how you look at it, MuayThai can be said to have just as many kicks as the more traditional arts like TaeKwonDo. Many of the kicking techniques in the MuayThai arsenal simply aren't taught much because they're not used in the ring, and many of the variations of MuayThai Roundhouse Kicks can actually be considered separate kicks instead of just falling under the heading of a "Roundhouse Kick".....

Oh, and Gabbah, I believe JJJ refers to "Japanese JuJutsu" (as opposed to BJJ being "Brazilian Jiu Jitsu")

[Ryukyu Damashi]

"I would say 90% of the power comes from the rotation. I don't think your kicks will get much harder by strengthening your core"


I would say 100% of the force comes from the rotation.

The rotation is 100% dependant on the core. The step doesn't rotate your body, the core does. The speed of rotation and the mass rotated is what determines the force of the kick.

The step decreases the distance from the leg on the ground to the point of impact. By taking a 6 inch step at a 45 degree angle you can decrease the distance the kick travels by nearly one third. The rotation is using the momentum from the angular step, but it is still rotated by the core.

[gabbah]

But when you step, you add the forward momentum energy (in this case forward being a 45 degree angle relative your opponent).
So instead of the target only taking up the energy of rotation, it must stop your forward momentum as well. So that's extra energy that transfers into the target if done correctly.
About creating the rotation, I would say you use pretty much your whole body for that, not just the core. You use arms and legs for it as well. That's the beauty of thai kicks. A mass system in motion, aiming to concentrate all of the momentum energy into one place.

Sorry if I missinterpreted your post... so please correct me if I did.

[Ryukyu Damashi]

We are on the same page.

The forward momentum is converted into rotational or angular momentum by the core muscles of the body.

[Khun Kao]

Too much science makes my head hurt

However, after reading that I think that all 3 of us are actually in agreement, but simply saying the same thing in different ways.

[gabbah]

However, after reading that I think that all 3 of us are actually in agreement, but simply saying the same thing in different ways.

Many times, this is the case when people argue on internet forums. Then after 10 pages of conversation they discover they agreed to begin with, just saying things differently, and missinterpreting the other.

But it would be cool though, if someone would describe the thai kicks totally scientifically, with vectors, masses and all.

[Khun Kao]

Agreed! I've run into this same scenario too many times to count!

Anyone know a scientist?

[seppuku]

But it would be cool though, if someone would describe the thai kicks totally scientifically, with vectors, masses and all.

meet a scientist. hey there. ill think on it, but it may take me several weeks to come up with something.

theres one thing people always sem to miss out when looking at the physics of a kick. the tension in the leg. an iron bar swung slowly can hurt lots because it doesnt compress when it hits. with a punch say, all the cartilidge in the wrist, elbow, spine etc absorbs some of the force. with a kick, if the leg bends at the knee at all when it lands it will drop the force considerably.

there are... lots of different factors. mass, velocity, acceleration, density, area of striking surface, time impulse acts for, magnitude of change of momentum, direction other person is moving in (their velocity and acceleraton), rigidity of both areas in contact and of the system they are connected to, and probably friction between the foot and the ground as well as between the shin and the unlucky one. i may have missed some out there, but hopefully i havent repeated myself...

[gabbah]

I think you got most of the parameters, and indeed it's a quite complex problem to model.
And you are totally right about the tension in the leg. That is why you should tense the right muscels upon impact (stay relaxed before for maximum speed), and in the case of a kick even push of the target to get back into your original stance.
Perhaps even another parameter is how extended a muscle is, as this has great impact on the strenth of that particular muscle. Sorry, didn't mean to make things even worse.

[seppuku]

yep, muscle contraction/extension would make a difference... whether thats factored into how rigid the leg is and the way its moving im not sure.

the relaxed thing is true, but is what im worst at. i hit hard enough, but its rigid from start to finish normally... too tense to relax. ill get there tho.

if i get too bored at the party im off to ill think on it there. cant be so hard to work out.. it would e impulse not force calculated tho. ive got no idea how long a kick remains in contact for and suspect it doesnt deliver the same force throughout the impact. might be simpler to kick a heavy bag and record how far it moves, but that would be specific to me not a general system. cheers

[gabbah]

When I hit the bag I can do it quite relaxed, so the power and form is really good. Technically it's quite good. If I hit an opponent witht that power they would be knocked out or have the wind knocked out of them (if bodyshot) for sure. But when I'm in the ring I'm tense again, so power and form is way worse, and I also get tired a lot faster.
I'm starting to loosen up more and more though, so I guess I just need more ring time.