Muay Thai so expensive!

[Pork Chop]

sportmuaythai

Of course going to thailand is the best way to become the best at muay thai, but not everyone can make that voyage (for various reasons).

Having lived in the Maryland/Virginia/DC metro area I can attest to the fact that Khun Kao's rates are very reasonable and even more reasonable for those showing the aptitude and drive to fight. The prices I pay in Texas (a much cheaper place to live) aren't that far off.

He is not ripping his students off, he's merely charging what he has to in order to keep his gym open. Believe me, Khun Kao's not getting rich off of his students.

His group class do involve a great deal of personal attention. In the beginning, when even learning to jab is a struggle, group classes are more than adequate.

The "rush, rush, go, go" attitude of American fighters versus the Thais I believe has to do with the training environment. In America, most people can't live in a "camp" type environment unless they are pros. They only have a few hours a day to get in a good workout, so they have to make it count: very high intensity. That carries over to their fighting; just like the Thais, who have all day to train, have a much more relaxed approach to training & fighting.

Your comment on the "poor form" of American fighters may or may not be justified. Even in Thailand each camp is slightly different and has their own preferences.

Believe it or not we do have quite a few Thais here in the States who've helped shape the knowledge base of American muay thai, like:
Master K, Danny, Ajarn Chai, Matee, Saeksan, Vut, Ganyao, Coban, and we even have branches of Sityodtong & fairtex here. I'd like to see you tell fighter/trainers from the US like Melchor Menor or Sleeper Michaelowski that they don't know what they're doing or have poor form.

We (Americans) haven't been doing this stuff for a hundred years and we don't have all day every day to train; but we're doing our best to get better.

[Khun Kao]

Thanks, Pork Chop.

SportMuayThai....

I understand what you are saying, but there are very few people who can afford to take 2 months of vacation to go train in Thailand. Most people only get 2 WEEKS of vacation per year. Even College students without regular jobs would often be hurting to do so because they have to work and earn money during their time off of school.

I agree with much of what you are saying. I have never been to Thailand myself, but I've been fortunate to have always trained directly under Thai's who are former fighters (one having been a stadium champ, too!). I agree with what you say about many Americans having poor form, but this has as much to do with MT being mixed with other arts here in the States. Mostly everyone cross trains now. Very few people participate solely in MuayThai and it shows. But I think thats a subject for another discussion.

Basically, for the same $1500, you can either go to Thailand for 2 months or train for a full year in the USA. The quality of the instruction is entirely open to debate. I know you speak the truth that there definately ARE gyms in Thailand that cater to foreigners and spend the time to teach you, but that is far from the norm. I've heard countless tales of 'farangs' who have gone to train in Thailand only to be largely relegated to kicking the heavy bag and ignored while the fighters get the coaches attention.

The one thing I disagree with is that after 2 months of training in Thailand you'll know enough to train on your own. I'm sorry, but this is a false assumption. That is not enough time to truly develop the type of muscle memory you'd need to continue to execute your technique correctly without supervision and guidance. I trained for YEARS under a Thai coach here in the States, 6 days a week for 3 hours at a time while I was a fighter, and I still needed to have a coach monitoring what I was doing to point out when & where I was getting "lazy" with my technique.

I do agree that you will learn a lot more in those 2 months in Thailand (providing you have good instructors) than you will typically get in the states, but then what? Come home and train on your own as you gradually forget what you were taught....

My point is that for the same price as 2 months of training in Thailand, you can train in the US for a full year. You won't have to go through the hassle of taking an extraordinary amount of time off of work (or quit your job to do so). And though there is no real substitute for training in Thailand under Thai coaches, there are still PLENTY of legimately badass Thai coaches here in the States.

As Porkchop pointed out, we have Master Chai, Master Vut, Master K, Master Danny, Master Green, Master Toddy, Master Tong, Coban, Saeksan, Ganyao, Matee, Khunpon, Kongnipa, Bunkerd, Jongsanan....

....and thats just the THAI coaches off the top of my head! There are many other legitimate THAI coaches than the ones I've mentioned, and I haven't even started listing the non-Thai's who are legitimate MuayThai coaches with real fight experience and REAL Thai skill.

In the end, I think this is merely a matter of perspective. I agree with MOST of what you say, but we have opposing viewpoints on a few key issues. It boils down to a choice to be made by each individual on what training method offers the better (or more realistic!) experience for them.

[george stando]

I will go out on a limb here but I will say from my own experience--nothing beats going to thailand to train. There is nothing in America even close and thats just my own personal opinion. In Thailand nobody makes a big deal about being a champion, hell you probably wouldnt even know who a champion is unless you saw a picture or asked. Here its quite the opposite as evidenced by some of the posts proclaiming this champion and that belt. The level of skill and the ability to work with the best on a daily basis in Thailand is incredible and without equal. if you go to a non foreigner camp, they might not even charge you. I went to a camp and it was free. Of course, I paid for my own food and the trainers but it amounted to nothing as well I stayed at the camp which was raw but I dealt with it. They made more than enough time for me in the course of the training day especially on the pads and in the clinch rounds. I never felt neglected or left out (although there were times that I wished they forgot about me and left me alone!).

Muay Thai costs are relative to location more than the skills of the trainers. Rent is rent and if you are in a big city things are going to cost more.

Bottom line is I would save up for a trip to Thailand and once there all your questions will be answered immediately. If you go for a week or two weeks, it will still give you heaps to work on for the next year of your training.

[sportmuaythai]

Please don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that there aren't legitimate trainers in The US. There are surely plenty of them. Also, I'm not saying the high fees are rip-off. All I'm saying is that if they can afford that kind of money, they must be dedicated. And, if they can afford a two months vacation away from home commitments, then training in Thailand would be a very good alternative to two years group training back home. As I said, my reply was to answer Khunkao's questions, not a rebuttle.

[Khun Kao]

I hope I'm not coming across as arguing either. I'm don't mean to, but I'm trying to make sure that we're all clear on there being 2 different ways of looking at this.....

Basically, for the same $1500, someone could either train here in the US for a full year, or go train in Thailand for anywhere from 2 weeks to 2 months (depending on how long they can afford to take off of work to do so).

I agree with what you guys are saying, which is that traveling to train in Thailand would be the ideal thing for any serious practitioner to do, but for many of us, its simply not a practical option. I've been dying to go to Thailand for the last 15 years, but I haven't been able to make it happen yet....

[sportmuaythai]

sportmuaythai
Having lived in the Maryland/Virginia/DC metro area I can attest to the fact that Khun Kao's rates are very reasonable and even more reasonable for those showing the aptitude and drive to fight. The prices I pay in Texas (a much cheaper place to live) aren't that far off.

This is what I assumed. $1500a year is the average annual fee for a year. Some less, and some more.

He is not ripping his students off, he's merely charging what he has to in order to keep his gym open. Believe me, Khun Kao's not getting rich off of his students.

I'm not saying that that Khunkao is a rip-off.

His group class do involve a great deal of personal attention. In the beginning, when even learning to jab is a struggle, group classes are more than adequate.

This is your opinion. Khunkao said that his group class is geared for casual casual people merely interested in MT. So it would be adequate. BUT there will be students who want to excell and put in their best effort right from begining.

The "rush, rush, go, go" attitude of American fighters versus the Thais I believe has to do with the training environment. In America, most people can't live in a "camp" type environment unless they are pros. They only have a few hours a day to get in a good workout, so they have to make it count: very high intensity. That carries over to their fighting; just like the Thais, who have all day to train, have a much more relaxed approach to training & fighting.

"rush,rush,go,go" attitude could be the training environment, but it's no excuse for not being composed and "protect yourself at all time". In the end, even a high ranking official of the team privately admitted to me that many of his fighters were very amature.

Your comment on the "poor form" of American fighters may or may not be justified. Even in Thailand each camp is slightly different and has their own preferences.

Poor form does not equate to different in styles. Even in the same camp, fighters may have different style.

Believe it or not we do have quite a few Thais here in the States who've helped shape the knowledge base of American muay thai, like:
Master K, Danny, Ajarn Chai, Matee, Saeksan, Vut, Ganyao, Coban, and we even have branches of Sityodtong & fairtex here. I'd like to see you tell fighter/trainers from the US like Melchor Menor or Sleeper Michaelowski that they don't know what they're doing or have poor form.

I beleive you have many good trainers in the US, and not just Thai trainers. Sorry, I don't know both Melchor and Sleeper, so I cannot comment.

Thanks, Pork Chop.

SportMuayThai....

I understand what you are saying, but there are very few people who can afford to take 2 months of vacation to go train in Thailand. Most people only get 2 WEEKS of vacation per year. Even College students without regular jobs would often be hurting to do so because they have to work and earn money during their time off of school.

I fully understand you, Khunkao.

I agree with much of what you are saying. I have never been to Thailand myself, but I've been fortunate to have always trained directly under Thai's who are former fighters (one having been a stadium champ, too!). I agree with what you say about many Americans having poor form, but this has as much to do with MT being mixed with other arts here in the States. Mostly everyone cross trains now. Very few people participate solely in MuayThai and it shows. But I think thats a subject for another discussion.

There are gyms in Thailand that do not train paying students well, also. You have to look around for gyms that are competant in their job. It would be foolish to walk into any Thai gym and expect to walk out well knowledged.

Basically, for the same $1500, you can either go to Thailand for 2 months or train for a full year in the USA. The quality of the instruction is entirely open to debate. I know you speak the truth that there definately ARE gyms in Thailand that cater to foreigners and spend the time to teach you, but that is far from the norm. I've heard countless tales of 'farangs' who have gone to train in Thailand only to be largely relegated to kicking the heavy bag and ignored while the fighters get the coaches attention.

I'd say $3000 would be more realistic. There is the costly plane ticket. I've been to bad gyms also. My reccommendation is not to put a big deposit before you fly to Thailand, but negotiate heavily once you get there, and you like what you see. Most camps have per session training fee so you can try first. Sometime it's difficult to tell if the gym is good or bad. One training session will give you a clue. Also the number of foreign trainees in the camp is not an indication of how good the gym is. In good gym, a student should only have to wait, at the most, for two students preceeding him, before he gets to work with the pad-man. Nevertheless, I think that there are gyms in the US and Europe as well that don't deliver what they promised. I hear that there are kick boxing gyms that jump into and cash on muaythai.

The one thing I disagree with is that after 2 months of training in Thailand you'll know enough to train on your own. I'm sorry, but this is a false assumption. That is not enough time to truly develop the type of muscle memory you'd need to continue to execute your technique correctly without supervision and guidance. I trained for YEARS under a Thai coach here in the States, 6 days a week for 3 hours at a time while I was a fighter, and I still needed to have a coach monitoring what I was doing to point out when & where I was getting "lazy" with my technique.

I'm sure you've heard of the term gym rats. You train twice a day in Thailand, and you eat and sleep MT. I've seen students that learned sufficiently to enter into real fights and win. Yes, even pro fighters still need trainer and coach. But even if you go to camp to train after you returned to the US, you'll be training at level above those who trained for two years in group. Khunkao, you said that students who show aptitude could land on free training providing they put in help as trainer themselves. I've seen trainees at Thai camps who returned home to start their own small gyms.

My point is that for the same price as 2 months of training in Thailand, you can train in the US for a full year.

2Years. But you will not be as good as you could be.

there are still PLENTY of legimately badass Thai coaches here in the States.
....and thats just the THAI coaches off the top of my head! There are many other legitimate THAI coaches than the ones I've mentioned, and I haven't even started listing the non-Thai's who are legitimate MuayThai coaches with real fight experience and REAL Thai skill.

You'd probably have to leave home to train with these trainers, and Khunkao
yourself said that your fee for personal training is for those who don't ask, or they can't afford it.

In the end, I think this is merely a matter of perspective. I agree with MOST of what you say, but we have opposing viewpoints on a few key issues. It boils down to a choice to be made by each individual on what training method offers the better (or more realistic!) experience for them.

I agree with you. If a person has to remain home because of career or personal commitment, then group training would be the choice. Then there is another alternative. Beside, how long can you stay to train in Thailand? Eventually, You'll have to return home. BUT, I've my own conviction which training method gives the best and more realistic experience. I may have raised adrenaline of some readers here. Pls take it out on your bag, not on me lol.

[Pork Chop]

Well according to the following links, we didnt do so bad, even snagging a few golds in the B division:

http://message.axkickboxing.com/index.phtml?action=dispthread&topic=18878&junk=1150093789.26009

http://www.ifmamuaythai.org/html/06_results.htm

I could be wrong, but I take the statement about Matt Williams being a "first timer" to mean at the very least he didn't have many fights. I think the same was true for more than one of the other fighters as well.

I would hardly call that team a US all-star team; but then I'm not exactly on top of the nation-wide rankings.

And yeah, when you make blanket statements that all of us US fighters are totally unskilled and using incorrect form, we're not gonna just nod our heads and say "yes sir".

[Khun Kao]

Sportmuaythai....

It's all good. I don't think that there is any one answer here because different methods and idealogies work for different people. I've had success without having ever set foot in Thailand. You've found your greatest success by going and training there.

The bottom line is we've each achieved success with our own methods. Others will have to do the same.

Kob Khun Mak Krup!

[sportmuaythai]

I could be wrong, but I take the statement about Matt Williams being a "first timer" to mean at the very least he didn't have many fights. I think the same was true for more than one of the other fighters as well.

I would hardly call that team a US all-star team; but then I'm not exactly on top of the nation-wide rankings.

And yeah, when you make blanket statements that all of us US fighters are totally unskilled and using incorrect form, we're not gonna just nod our heads and say "yes sir".

I apologize if I appear to come across as making a blanket statement all of US fighters are unskilled and using incorrect form. I made the statement that I often see US trainees with poor form. I should have also said in the same sentence that I did see some US trainees with good form as well. Nevertheless, I don't recall remarking that all US fighters are totally unskilled. Chill down pls.