Muay Boran, ancient muay thai art still effective?

[kurt_myers0369]

I was wondering , with all the new Muay Thai camps and schools popping up all over the U.S., do any of them still teach the techniques of Muay Boran? I would love to learn them, have they stopped teaching them because most aren't legal in competition?

[Khun Kao]

Very few teach the techniques of MuayBoran. I have a beginners program that is designed to teach a blend of the bareknuckle & ringsport basics, but unfortunately the class didn't really catch on (mostly due to the time slot we were in).

It isn't that the techniques aren't legal in the ring. I would venture to say that most of the techniques still are. But the ringsport of MuayThai is very "stream-lined"... fighters train in the techniques that have the highest percentage of success. A lot of the footwork and stylistic fighting has been streamlined as well to make the fights more exciting.

Sadly, its very difficult to find authentic MuayBoran anywhere, not just in the US. Even in Thailand its hard to find the real genuine article. Most camps stopped training in their systems of MuayBoran decades ago with the growing popularity of the ring sport, and now that the old masters are dying off the knowledge is dying with them.

At this point, the best sources for authentic MuayBoran are Vincent Giordanno and Colonel Amnat Pooksrisuk. Vincent is hard to track down. He's in NY, but he spends the better part of the year traveling and researching the ancient bareknuckle fighting systems of SE Asia. Colonel Amnat Pooksrisuk is from Bangkok, but comes to the USA a few times each year to attend the War College, and takes that opportunity to teach Bareknuckle MuayThai seminars.

A good start to learning MuayBoran is to go to the following websites:

ancientmuay.com
bareknucklemuay.com

These two websites offer the 1st two DVD's in Colonel Amnat's "Ancient Bareknuckle MuayThai" series. They are a great resource to begin learning and understanding the basis of the MuayBoran systems.

[kurt_myers0369]

Thanks for the info, I'll check out the sites.

[William]

Khun Kao is correct. There are few around who still teach MB. With that being said, I really value my training time with Ajarn Wilson (Chalambok) and his willingness to share with us the Muay Boran, Muay Kachuek, and Krabi-Krabong.

Vincent is another very good source who isn't too difficult to contact. I'm not sure how readily available his address is on the net, but I'd be happy to forward your e-mail to him if you can't find it.


Best regards,
William

[Ta2dthaiboxr]

From what I've learned( and that's very little), Muay Boran seems to be THE MOST effective martial art there is. That's just my opinion but if it was used to defend an entire country...it must be pretty effective.

[Python]

From what I've learned( and that's very little), Muay Boran seems to be THE MOST effective martial art there is. That's just my opinion but if it was used to defend an entire country...it must be pretty effective.

I am not disagreeing with your opinion, but keep in mind that when MB was used, it was many many years ago and fighting has evolved much since those days. What might have been the most effective for that time, may or may not be today. It is my opinion that there are many different arts which have several effective elements that when combined together become a most effective system, for a particular practitioner...it will vary for each individual.

[sportmuaythai]

but keep in mind that when MB was used, it was many many years ago and fighting has evolved much since those days. What might have been the most effective for that time, may or may not be today.

I concur. Ther hasn't been any real competition in MB inTHailand for many decades, while sport muaythai has evolved and grown. There are much verbal conflicts in Thailand, among those who study MB and sportmuaythai, as to which is more effective.
Nevertheless, any challenge from sportmuaythai side is coyly turned down by MB devotees. At first, the excuse was that sport muaythai rule was restrictive for MB to show its true virtue. But eventually they conceeded that they do not have a suitable representative to meet the challenge. Most MB followers are students or white collar workers who believe that MB is the holy grail of self defense. The training in sportmuaythai is very intense, twice a day. Because of work or study commitments, these MB guys won't be able follow such routine.
It's my opinion that competition breeds refinement. Through competitions, modern muaythai gets to test what is most effective, and what moves are just too risky. Sport muaythai trainers are experienced and successful fighters with over a century fights behind them. They can instantly spot a wrong move. The training in sport muaythai has also evolved. It's done one on one with pad work where fighters get to do full power kicks , punches, elbows and knees. When they spar, they wear protective paddings, so they can punch and kick as fast as they want. MB teachers on the other hand are not experienced fighters. They do drills with limited bag work. Sparring is done in choreograph movements. So you can probably get the picture why MB will have difficult time with modern sport muaythai. The final trump (ace) that sport muaythai has is that S muaythai fighters come from all over the country. They start young at 9-10 years od age. By the time they are 18, the successful ones will have over 40 fights. I can tell you this. It takes as long to master MB as it would with Chinese fighting arts, and what you learned will help you defense youself against untrained adversary. But up against a well trained sport muaythai who has spent half the time you've learning the art, you'll probably come out in the rear.

[george stando]

I agree to an extent meaning the way it is practiced now is like its balls have been cut off. Its a simple dynamic way to fight but now its like no fighting just doing sets of forms,the old guys fought and knew how to fight. The new guys teaching dont fight and only do forms, if you link it to burmese bare knuckle its all about fighting an active part of the style, an ingrediant. so if you take thai style and move it forward link it to muay thai then you got something going on. Competition does exist on the borders, in burma and I know some guys who go over to fight. Vincent is heavily involved in training people to compete in places like burma where the rules remain pretty much close to the old bare knuckle.

I wouldnt say vincent is a muay boran guy, he does specific systems like muay chaiya, muay korat, he doesnt like the phys ed stuff that governs krabi krabong or muay today. He also has a sturdy backround in bjj, western boxing, muay thai(which he trained exclusively in thailand for over 17 years), kali, etc so he is coming at from a functional thing(his speciality is combatics and real world application) and re linking it back to put it at a place where it can work today. He veers toward that in krabi krabong as well using the systems that work in that way. He knows everything about the principles, theories and strategies but he works to make them alive for today and the history and drills the direct link to the past. Just my opinon on this. I trained a bit of muay boran in thailand and i could see the difference between the older teachers who taught fighting and those who taught what i would call dancing. Which of course is my opinion based upon what i saw.

[kurt_myers0369]

Interesting stuff, I'm really enjoying this thread guys!

[Tee Sok]

I agree with sportsmuaythai and george, good points made clear.
i'd like to add that both Muay Boran and Krabi Krabong are general names that mean very little. And it is quite telling that both have been copyrighted by sport/recreative associations that I personally do not like.

It is also interesting to notice that there is no such thing as "Muay Boran" in Thailand. My teacher also told me that Muay Kard Chiek is a name used in the west rather than in Thailand, and that Krabi Krabong should be referred to as Daab+the name of the region or of the system, such as Daab Lanna for instance.

George:

I know that you have trained both sport Muay Thai and old bare knuckle.
I agree that in order to be effective old bare knuckle should be trained with the appropriate resistance/pressure and realistically (like ring Muay Thai).
Do you think that bare knuckle systems (trained appropriately) will give a more complete/effective set of techniques and strategies for real situations than sport Muay Thai?

Thank you.

[george stando]

Exactly my point and I totally agree. The people I train with fight and compete and utilize everything possible to make it work like it did long ago like a nhb contest.

[cmcgg]

Hi kurt_myers0369,

Have yer tried checking out : mastersken.com
He teaches ring techniques and also the traditional techniques as well. Master Sken has over 40yrs training and teaching. Also he's couple of dvd's you might care to purchase, and many more to come. To see Master Sken when he was younger check out "youtube". When you watch the clips from his site remember he's over 50yrs old and still going strong.

mcgg

[Puravis]

Muay Boran is quite an effective style. However if you were to practice it now you would most likely have to study a certain deriative of the original. The styles of Muay Boran the main ones Chaiya,Korat,Tha sao. Now it is important to note the similarity between modern Muay Thai and the Tha Sao style of Muay Boran. As one would see usually in most Muay Thai stances is an arch in the back one foot in front and hands high protecting the face. Now if you compare that to Muay Tha Sao it's almost the same stance. In my opinion they also share the same philosophy. Muay Tha Sao is legendary for it's fast kicks and finishing the oponent as quickly as possible differing from the styles of Chaiya, Korat and other Muay Boran styles that relied on wit. Now Muay Boran also relied on subranches defence
Kon muay: defence of the body with the eight limbs
Cherng muay: attacks varios combos with the eight limbs
Mai Mae muay : masterful tricks

By the dawn of modern muay thai these concepts were excluded.
Now the stance of most modern muay thai as said was the Tha Sao stance
a style that might have took rise because it was fast and efficient and was safer for the airing in of the sport Muay Thai. The techniques of kon,cherng and Mae Mai muay were excluded as well and those techniques listed are the essence of Muay Boran. Those techniques are not used in modern day but you can find them in muay thai textbooks and other documents. If your serious about Muay Boran start with those techniques first, really they are the techniques that were used in Muay Boran no matter what style of Muay Boran these techniques were shared by them all. The stance is more complicated however and the reason is that it is the only factor in itself that makes these styles different with execption to Chaiya and a few minor styles. I myself think that deriatives of styles of Muay Boran could be reconstructed that could be effective in modern day competition. If you wish to see Kon,cherng and Mae Mai muay thai techniques on the web go to www.muaythai.com, you will see the difference.

[fire cobra]

I think its also important to remember that you can train in modern Muay Thai for a long time but if you dont compete your level of application and understanding of your art will never be the same as someone who does compete(apply) their techniques under actual combat conditions.

Ive lost count of the times ive seen guys on the bags and pads look like world champs,then the 1st time they set foot in the ring their technique goes out of the window.

So how would the below scenario workout?

Take a guy practicing Muay Borarn(any of the various branches) have him compete in Muay Boran competitions(say 20) then pit him against a Sport Muay Thai practitioner that has never competed but trained the same length of time as the MB competitor,what would be the outcome? hypothetical i know but perhaps interesting all the same.

[the tick]

So what is so different about this Boran? Aside from the obviouse. And why isn't it beeing taught anymore? I mean, tons of other ancient martial arts are still beeing taught. Even the ancient European martial arts still have followers after beeing rediscovered.