I don't know if it's just my school

[>:)]

but why does muay thai tend to teach in a very restrictive manner. I mean here we've got a full contact sweat and blood sport, that provides a very unrestrictive enviroment to test out ppl's stand up game (compared to boxing anyway), but I keep noticing loads of things missing in training. And again maybe it's the place I train at and not all gyms.

A good example. The backfist. Why is this not taught and trained in boxing combinations as a quick initiator. lead backfist into rear hook, etc. MT has just really borrowed the basics from boxing for their punches. Backfisting is illegal in boxing, am lead to understand it's legal in muay thai (I might be wrong actually, I can't find an intricate list of the rules anywhere on the net)

Sidekick. By which I mean things like feint a roundhouse and throw out a sidekick while the leg's in midair. Or one thing I have been pondering about for a while now, throwing sidekicks and back kicks to an opponent thats stepped off to the side (they teach plenty of clever side stepping combos at my gym which is great) and then opponent circles behind you. Why not teach kids to keep on the offense even when your opponent isn't dead on infront of you, and train their backicks and sidekicks to mule-level. I don't get why not

Then theres drills that could be taken from other styles which would up a fighter's level, like getting rid of telegraph type drills you get in jkd. Not enough going into detail about the clinch and throwing, tripping. It's too basic.

At times, it's almost like Muay thai is TOO bread and butter at times. Not reaching it's full potential. Theres more things you can do in a fight and they either dont teach these things at all, or put little focus on these things.

Backkicks, boxing intracacies (parries, shovels, etc), teaching ppl to where to look on opponent, what to look for, elbows for punches, knees, hips for kicks & knees, teaching about intercepting, drawing an opponent into a setup. Hell why not even teach something like straight blasting to throw an opponent off and set them up for a powerful combo. What muay thai fighter would see that coming the first time round. I know I'm missing more I've thought about. I really like mt, but to give their fighters as good a chance of possible of thriving (or surviving) in a fight surely they should train them to attack&defend from every angle possible. Just a thought. I don't know shit really

[Khun Kao]

Each of the techniques you ask about is part of MuayThai. But you have to understand that MuayThai today is a sport with professional athletes. The techniques you are asking about are what we refer to as "low percentage" techniques. Basically they are difficult to use effectively against another trained, professional athlete. Therefore, they aren't seen in the ring that often. If you watch enough MuayThai, you will see these techniques used, but again, they're not used that often.

BACKFISTS: The main reason we don't see them used very often is that a backfist is actually one of the weakest of the punches. They are fast and sharp, but don't have a lot of weight behind them. Wearing boxing gloves negates most of their effectiveness, so attempting to use them as a stunning blow or as a setup for another technique is practically useless.

SPINNING BACKFISTS: You have to turn your back on your opponent. I will again remind you that we are talking about PROFESSIONAL ATHLETES! Professional fighters, simply put, have some of the most awesome timing in the world. You had best be 100% sure of what you are doing if you're going to turn your back on one.

SIDE KICKS: These are actually used. Not as often as the front kick, but they are used. In MuayThai, we are taught to "teep", or "push kick". Most people learn the "teep" as a thrusting front kick. However, *ALL* thrusting straight kicks are referred to as "teeps", including Front Kicks, Side Kicks, and Back Kicks. Front Kicks are used 90% of the time because they are the fastest and easiest to recover your position from, which means that they are the fastest and easiest to follow up on with another technique.

I will stop at this point to, again, remind you that MuayThai is a professional sport whose techniques and style of fighting have been defined by PROFESSIONAL ATHLETES! Allowing yourself to be caught in a position, even from just a moment, from which you cannot easily attack or defend can often mean disaster!

BACK KICKS: Again, see above re: Side Kicks.

PARRIES/SHOVELS: Uh, I have always been taught these, and have always used them. Don't know why you haven't been exposed to them? Have you asked your coach?

As a matter of fact, just about everything in your last paragraph should be being taught. I have been being taught all of that (to some level or another) from my novice stages.

But going back to my point that I am incessantly hammering home... MuayThai is a sport. Its rarely ever taught as a complete martial art anymore. What you get taught most of the time is what does and does not work in the ring. This has led to MuayThai becoming very streamlined. Its focus is on the techniques that have been proven to work time and time again.

And I will again reiterate that every single thing you have mentioned is part of the full MuayThai arsenal. If these things are not being taught to you, you should discuss this with your coach to find out at what point these things will be introduced to the curriculum. If these things are not being included, then perhaps you may want to consider finding another coach.

[>:)]

BACKFISTS: The main reason we don't see them used very often is that a backfist is actually one of the weakest of the punches. They are fast and sharp, but don't have a lot of weight behind them. Wearing boxing gloves negates most of their effectiveness, so attempting to use them as a stunning blow or as a setup for another technique is practically useless.

That's one little gripe I have with mt. It's a power mad art, which is fine to an extent. But c'mon, even weak(er) strikes can have their place to setup the power. Ok, like this for example. Two orthodox fighters. One throws a straight punch, the other slips out, and throws a quick backfist (to stun), torquing his body into it, causing the momentum ideal for a very powerful rear hook. If backfists were legal in boxing, I have no doubt they would have been introduced into combos as initiators to stun and setup. In muay thai however, they replicate what a boxer would do (slip out, come in with a big right) even though they have some more options available in their punching combos. Even hammer blows could have their place in combos with a bit of imagination.

Spinning anything I wouldn't dare do. I've rarely witnessed a sidekicks or backkicks in fights but I still think training fighters to get into the habit of attacking even when the opponent has danced all the way round to your backside should be drilled to the point where they don't even have to think about it (throwing a backkick which turns them round and brings them back into protective stance/sidekicks thrown to their left or right, bringing them into stance 90 degrees, you get the idea). It's just little things like this I'm talking about where mt just seems to be limiting itself for no apparent reason Surely the reason why the well known moves are proven to work in the ring is because these are the moves that are worked constantly, and like you said, the 'low percentage' stuff isn't said to work aswell is because muay thai fighters will be weak in these areas because they don't get given the opportunity to train them enough.

[chalambok]

I refer you again to an article about scoring & judging at the singto.uk site. Basically, why teach something if it is not scored because it is not judged to be an authentic muay Thai technique? Backfists won't be scored, even if you hit the other person hard. It has to look like, and be, a muay Thai technique. Factor in that the opponent must be seen to be hurt by it for a score, and you can see why 'weak' techniques are not taught. The Western mind-set of using some soft strikes to set up a harder following strike to the Thai just seems like a waste of effort. As Khun Kao says, it is now a professional ring sport, much the same as MMA, which does not teach traditional standing jui-jitsu, even though most practitioners come from a Brazilian Jui-jitsu background.

[Khun Kao]

>

Something else you have to understand is that there is a difference between the martial art of MuayThai (and Krabi Krabong) and the ring sport of MuayThai. If you are able to locate someone who actually teaches the traditional Thai martial arts, then many of these techniques you refer to are taught as part of the regular curriculum. Heck, Chalambok used and excellent example of sport MMA vs. traditional Jujutsu. Heck, even sport Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is immensely different than the complete martial art of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.....

The problem is that many of the older styles of Muay (bareknuckle MuayThai styles) have all but died out because the popularity of the ring sport over the last century has driven most to stop training and practicing the older styles. The money is in the sport of MuayThai, not in the martial art of MuayThai.

Chalambok is actually an incredible resource for learning of authentic Thai martial arts. I would suggest that you may find yourself preferring the study of the traditional Thai martial art "Krabi Krabong". There are many in the UK who study this style of fighting and Chalambok is very plugged into it. He may be able to refer you to someone who is in your area whom you could begin to study with so as to learn the complete art of MuayThai.....

[>:)]

That makes alot more sense now thanx. That's a shame the older versions have died out. Bit of a shame the scoring system aswell, I never knew that. I think the sport would be a lot more interesting if it wasn't as strict, but I can understand why its like that, I think. Is because the fights then look more 'thai' hence keeping strong the tradition and thailand fighting trademarks?

I've heard of the Krabi-Karong I've heard one of my instructors talk about it. He might know a little actually. Im pretty happy where I am. Hope I'm not come off sounding like I'm trying to put down my gym or something I love it there. One instructor especially has opened my eyes so much about fighting. It's just that I just like to question everything

[Khun Kao]

The scoring of MuayThai is driven by the gamblers. Forum member "sportmuaythai" once contributed a very revealing post on the how's & why's that MuayThai's scoring system is what it is, and how it has been driven and defined by the gambling system.

In some ways, its a real shame. There are a lot of traditional MuayThai techniques that don't make it into the ring except in very rare instances due to this. But on the other hand, what we do have is a very unique ring sport that is unmistakeably Thai.

You have to take the good with the bad when it comes to competition. But when it comes to training, if you can find a coach who is willing to teach you the more complete art as opposed to strictly ring-style MuayThai, you should go for it.

[fire cobra]

khunkao,there are not many krabee krabong practitioners in the uk(unfortunatly) and even the standard of muay thai isnt great overall(although it is getting better)