Thai Kick defense

[Ghost]

yes same here, i know a lot of tricks, Mae Mai etc and i certainly dont think that the ring game is a cut down version.
double dose i really dont know what you are on about, but please dont assume we dont understand more advanced techniques. many of us here have studied for many years and spent years training full time in thailand.

Please dont assume that ajarn chai is WAYYYYYYYY up there and we are WAYYYYYY down there.

[fire cobra]

I agree Ghost,the ring version is definatly not inferior to the older versions,its strength is in its simplicity.

Double Dose,just because Ajarn Chais drills etc get critiqued doesnt mean we(or should i say i) dont respect him or think he is a bad teacher etc,all i say is that i dont see drills such as 28 count or whatever practiced in Thailands camps,or for that matter in Muay Boran as i have seen practiced.

[Ghost]

yeah fire cobra, you see i dont think anyone should be beyond questioning. and obviously myself included. Some things have their use, and as you can see at the start of the thread i have issues with this 28 count job.
That doesnt mean i dont respect ajarn chai, but im not going to sit back and just approve because of his name.
We have to have the balls in this game to say hang on a minute, i dont like the look of that because of xyz. Even if the person saying it is a well respected name.

martial arts suffers far too much hero worshiping in my opinion as it is and ill often willfully question stuff even if its just to provoke a thought process in others.
ie justify why its good rather than just say "well he said its good so it must be"

We have to question things. This 28 step thing is pants. Sorry, it just is and ive explained why. But im sure the other 99.9% of what Chai teaches isnt.

We need to question each other, i sure as hell dont mind being proved wrong, i learn from it and put it down to experience.

[Khun Kao]

I agree with both ghost and fire cobra's statements.

We all have to have a thick skin, be willing to be examined under a microscope, and accept criticism. I have trained under a number of Thai coaches, and to be honest I have noticed that the older Thai's who fought in the 50's & 60's all seem to like teaching 6, 8, 12, 16-count combinations. It's a dated teaching system. It still serves its purpose but I don't think its anywhere near as efficient or practical compared to more contemporary training methods. Heck, I admittedly still teach them from time-to-time.

I will also let it be known that I have never trained under Ajarn Chai. I have tons of respect for the man because without him, most of us would not have ever had the opportunity to even KNOW about Muay Thai in the first place if not for his lifetime of work. He did attend one of my title fights in person, though, so I got to meet him and shake his hand!

[fire cobra]

Nice posts lads,looks like we are all in agreement that learning and growth is the way to go,even if we are proved wrong and have to eat some humble pie,all fine by me.

[JAB]

Khun Kao
What are some of the modern training methods you refer to?

[george stando]

I dont agree that all the thai coaches from the 50s and 60s teach with combination counts. I met and trained with a few who fought during those times and later taught in thailand and never learned anything close to those type of counts and/or approaches. I mean it could be something these coaches during those time periods who relocated to the west and other countries modified them that way in response to those elements around them or the way others did it but not so in thailand. Its healthy conjecture at best. Its more modeled on the karate type of approach over a thai approach even in the old style is more fluid than that.

[fire cobra]

I dont agree that all the thai coaches from the 50s and 60s teach with combination counts. I met and trained with a few who fought during those times and later taught in thailand and never learned anything close to those type of counts and/or approaches. I mean it could be something these coaches during those time periods who relocated to the west and other countries modified them that way in response to those elements around them or the way others did it but not so in thailand. Its healthy conjecture at best. Its more modeled on the karate type of approach over a thai approach even in the old style is more fluid than that.

I agree George,

When i first met my teacher i asked him what his combinations where he said..punch,kick,knee,and elbow!,

I also asked him what his warm up was he said Muay Thai,and his cool down..Muay Thai lol.

[Marksmarkou]

I would always say that the best defence to thhe kick is to move away from it. Also not moving backwards but sidestepping inwards so youre still in range to counter. If the kick is to fast and you dont have time, it has to be the shin block using the 1-2 inch area just below the knee.

[Ghost]

I would always say that the best defence to thhe kick is to move away from it. Also not moving backwards but sidestepping inwards so youre still in range to counter. If the kick is to fast and you dont have time, it has to be the shin block using the 1-2 inch area just below the knee.

dont agree, moving away makes countering harder as you have increased range and generally leads to nothing lost, nothing gained.
the shin block is, imo, the best defense as it allows a quick counter without having to close the gap, you also have far more options open to you with a shin block than letting their kick go past you.

REmember, we arent just trying to hit and not get hit, we are trying to win. and sometimes that means making some sacrifices.

Fact is, shin block allows the widest variety of counters and on that merit it is the most effective defense as it has the most effect offensive counters.

all imo of course.

[Marksmarkou]

dont agree, moving away makes countering harder as you have increased range and generally leads to nothing lost, nothing gained.
the shin block is, imo, the best defense as it allows a quick counter without having to close the gap, you also have far more options open to you with a shin block than letting their kick go past you.

REmember, we arent just trying to hit and not get hit, we are trying to win. and sometimes that means making some sacrifices.

Fact is, shin block allows the widest variety of counters and on that merit it is the most effective defense as it has the most effect offensive counters.

all imo of course.

While I agree with you that moving away leaves you in a nothing lost nothing gained situation it was not what i was reffering to (my apologies, I should have explained myself better) Im reffering to moving out of the line of attack whilst still leaving yourself in range to counter. I guest wrote an article for a martial arts blog here on the subject which might explain myself better. Its a strategy used in Enshin/Ashihara karate and Wado. I have found it very useful during my Thai training as I have found most Thai fighters to attack only in a straight line.

[Ghost]

oh i wrote a post like that on page 2 on this thread i think, yeah its a good counter when you can do it. and yes i agree we are too linear on defense at times still.

best counter often depends on your position relative to the other person and your balance. everything has its place.

[Khun Kao]

I dont agree that all the thai coaches from the 50s and 60s teach with combination counts.

You're probably right. The three coaches from this era that I have trained with are all here in the USA and had been for years before I started training with them. It doesn't surprise me in the least that this is an American adaptation. Also, each of the three had a slightly different methodology when teaching these "counts".

Speaking of combinations and/or counts.... I was training with Kaensak earlier this year, and someone asked him what his favorite combination was. Kaensak just kind of looked at the guy blankly for a minute and then was like, "I don't have one. I just use what works at that time."

It gives you a better appreciation of the more modern training methodology. When you begin training, you need to be "spoon-fed" combinations so that you can learn all the varying ways techniques can be strung together. But as you get into your advanced stages of training (and fighting) your game should evolve so that you can simply react to what your circumstances are and find the openings.

[Khun Kao]

Khun Kao
What are some of the modern training methods you refer to?

Basically, you work with shorter combinations. Rather than train to throw combinations of 6, 8, 12, or 16 strikes, you instead focus on 3 - 4 techniques.

When using Thai pads, there are 2 prevalent methods....

1. Pad Holder calls the shots. The pad holder will either tell you or signal you what they want you to throw. Again, the focus is usually on 2-4 techniques.

2. The Pad Holder reacts to you. A good pad holder will simply allow you to "spar" with him. You do what you want and the pad holder will get the pads in place to avoid taking the hit.

In both of these scenarios, the pad holder does not simply stand there playing the role of a 2-legged heavy bag. The pad holder stays in a Muay Thai stance and moves around. The pad holder also will fight back, throwing well timed strikes to force you to move around, defend, and counter strike.

[Ghost]

You're probably right. The three coaches from this era that I have trained with are all here in the USA and had been for years before I started training with them. It doesn't surprise me in the least that this is an American adaptation. Also, each of the three had a slightly different methodology when teaching these "counts".

Speaking of combinations and/or counts.... I was training with Kaensak earlier this year, and someone asked him what his favorite combination was. Kaensak just kind of looked at the guy blankly for a minute and then was like, "I don't have one. I just use what works at that time."

It gives you a better appreciation of the more modern training methodology. When you begin training, you need to be "spoon-fed" combinations so that you can learn all the varying ways techniques can be strung together. But as you get into your advanced stages of training (and fighting) your game should evolve so that you can simply react to what your circumstances are and find the openings.

yeah thats quite right, balance and body position at any given time will dictate the correct response.
Every situation is slightly different. its not rigid in movement like chess is.
but i think the older way is to teach it more like chess moves where you can more literally say, what is your favorite counter.
Real fights are so dynamic that a foot being in one area or another changes the counter or defense you are likely to use.