Muay thai OR

[fire cobra]

do we want to train to other peoples limitations or excel in our own potential?

taking this argument, we would never have 'boxed' the thais, choosing not to work on the hands because it used to be weak in their game simply because we never saw it in Thailand camps.

Most camps in my experience will work on whats going to score points in order to win the fights. This is a bit different from trying to develop a skill which may be a low percentage winner. When we send troops to war we dont develop their 'chi' we give them the high percentage techniques for survival in that environment. The monotonous Krabbi Krabong routines are a great example of that

here, in the west, we dont have to fight - well in most cases - to put food to our familly. This is a sport and the best fighters dont simply follow the crowd.

Lost my sign in info as i hadnt posted for a few years. Hope a few old friends are here and look forward to speaking with you all over time! TBA - UK is growing on solid foundations and still doing loads of Thai.

Pat Davies
Aberdeen UK

I take your point bro,i dont like limitations body or mind,however my main point is Thais know how to win at Muay Thai,its what they do its what they have done for a long time,and they dont use bobbing /weaving as a mainstay of there defence,not to say its never used but to use your terminology its not "high percentage" it can get you more in trouble than it can out of trouble imho,so why re invent the wheel?,i shall wait to see if boxers in the future can prove me wrong by using the said tactics throughout there careers but i think i will wait a long time!,

Respect bro.

[iPat]

...if they dont do it in Thailand camps/rings why would we want to do it in the west?.

do we want to train to other peoples limitations or excel in our own potential?

taking this argument, we would never have 'boxed' the thais, choosing not to work on the hands because it used to be weak in their game simply because we never saw it in Thailand camps.

Most camps in my experience will work on whats going to score points in order to win the fights. This is a bit different from trying to develop a skill which may be a low percentage winner. When we send troops to war we dont develop their 'chi' we give them the high percentage techniques for survival in that environment. The monotonous Krabbi Krabong routines are a great example of that

here, in the west, we dont have to fight - well in most cases - to put food to our familly. This is a sport and the best fighters dont simply follow the crowd.

Lost my sign in info as i hadnt posted for a few years. Hope a few old friends are here and look forward to speaking with you all over time! TBA - UK is growing on solid foundations and still doing loads of Thai.

Pat Davies
Aberdeen UK

[fire cobra]

i think you can use the weaving at any appropriate time. Why not? Plus if you do a weave using the knees rather than lowering the head to get a knee to the face you'll have an opportunity. I just wouldn't say "never" weave. In fact Ajarn Chai has us weave usually in seminar warm ups and at the Thai camp.

Yeah you can weave at certain times bro,ive seen Boxers in Thailand bob under kicks,my main point is its not a tactic taught as a mainstay in the camps of Thailand,whereas lening into a swing/hook and kneeing/clinching,leaning awayfrom,blocking and using the elbow are all techniques/tactics taught and used in every camp/match,even good punchers modern day like Anawat Kaewsamrit didnt use that type of tactic as a mainstay of his game,if they dont do it in Thailand camps/rings why would we want to do it in the west?.

[tekshow]

i think you can use the weaving at any appropriate time. Why not? Plus if you do a weave using the knees rather than lowering the head to get a knee to the face you'll have an opportunity. I just wouldn't say "never" weave. In fact Ajarn Chai has us weave usually in seminar warm ups and at the Thai camp.

[fire cobra]

yes thats true but the point i was going to lead to with it is that you have to make an assesment of who you are fighting, and that goes right across the board imo as to what you use. trying to outbox a boxer that is better than you might not be the best idea, but you can for sure use weaves on a guy that kicks and punch but doesnt knee much.
So based on that i have it at my disposal to use as and when. all imo.

Yeah i agree to that Ghost,so the more that you can do technically the more you can do tacticly.

[Ghost]

A good fighter would set the weaver up for knee or elbow to the head with feints,a lot depends to on the height of the fighter,ie a tall knee striker and a short weaver makes it easier for the knee striker.

yes thats true but the point i was going to lead to with it is that you have to make an assesment of who you are fighting, and that goes right across the board imo as to what you use. trying to outbox a boxer that is better than you might not be the best idea, but you can for sure use weaves on a guy that kicks and punch but doesnt knee much.
So based on that i have it at my disposal to use as and when. all imo.

[fire cobra]

A good fighter would set the weaver up for knee or elbow to the head with feints,a lot depends to on the height of the fighter,ie a tall knee striker and a short weaver makes it easier for the knee striker.

[William]

I wouldn’t be in position if you came in under my hook. I was referring to a set-up from a jab or even a cross when the guy tries to bob & weave under. If I see that the guy likes to do that, I’ll look to set him up. But then Chalambok used to say that I was unusual in the way that I could throw a lead knee and that is what I would mainly use in situation like that (and an aspect I train my guys on). As far as coming under my lead hook, I tend to use my footwork and angle out on a slight 45 so that my body is moving off of your centerline when I throw it. Tends to cut off that angle and leave a nice line to follow up into close range with an overhand, elbow, or knee.

I agree that slipping to one side or the other is a good tactic, but you won’t generally catch me bobbing my head under and across the centerline.

Not everything works 100% of the time. As you said, Just like kneeing someone who wants to take you down, great in theory...but doesn't always work out that way. It's all about whether you catch them our not. If equally skilled..do you have the luck on that day?

[Ghost]

so if im weaving under your hook how do you knee me in the head? bearing in mind that as im weaving through im hooking to your body and following up with a cross to the head.

weaving is great, you can get nice outside clinches from it and you punch from the weave as well. i certainly dont worry about getting kneed in the head as i know how to weave properly, which most thai boxers dont unless they have actual boxing training as well.

by the same token, to shoot for a takedown would be the worst idea in history, but it isnt, it works as well

[William]

Funny you guys should mention bobbing and weaving.

Before class the other day, one of the other instructors in the gym was sparring with one of my guys and attempted to bob under one of his strikes. Being a nice guy, my guy explained to him that he might not want to do that again “or you might end up with a knee in your face”. We concentrate a lot on knee strikes and also work them against the traditional bob & weave a boxer might use. We utilize footwork, slipping, and waving in and out to move into and out of close range. After resuming their sparring he tried it again a few minutes later…only to be met with a knee starring him in the face. Good thing my guy has control.

Don’t take it as a knock on boxing, it’s not at all. It’s just a different emphasis on offensive and counter-offensive techniques according to weapons used.


Best regards,
William

[fire cobra]

thats very interesting, i didnt know they were doing it back then, would i be right in thinking that around the 70s it sort of disappeared?

Yeah Ghost,


Ive seen a lot of footage from the mid to late 70s and the style defo changed from being faster footwork,evasion and hand work it became a slower(not slow) pace,and with the likes of Diesel Noi coming along and using the knee so effectively and the use of the long guard position to make the head grab and knee easier and quicker,there were still good punching camps and good punchers(as there is now) like Mangsurin camp.

If you lookmover the years even up to now the punchers tend to also have a good low kick but have to be looking for kos as the rule set(low kicks and punches not scoring so highly unless they have visable effect)makes it hard fir that type of boxer to win over the distance nowadays.

I stand to be corrected by someone with more experience than me on all this Ghost but it is my observations over the years.

[Ghost]

Yeah very interesting Ghost,I think Sangtienoi is used to teaching Farang and we do like to use our hands so maybe a bit of catering going on there,most of the camps i trained at didnt have Farang there and also didnt teach those type of skills.

Interestingly i have some super 8 movie footage from the 1950s in a camp in Thailand,there they are using a top and bottom ball,speed ball,and working hands a lot.

My main teacher was a top boxer in the 60s and he did teach slipping,rolling,and weaving,and was very good at it,however his camp where he learnt was a big punchers camp.

Personally i love those skills but dont teach the roll,bob and weave to my fighters,but do teach slipping.

thats very interesting, i didnt know they were doing it back then, would i be right in thinking that around the 70s it sort of disappeared?

[fire cobra]

interesting, a lot of gyms are putting out boxers as well as thai boxers now even if its only one or two.
its true though they dont weave much in the ring, though they should imo and i think in time they will do it more.
i trained with sang tienoi for some time and it was definitely on the menu there as well as well as other places, depends where you go as some gyms simply didnt. nongkee did it too

Yeah very interesting Ghost,I think Sangtienoi is used to teaching Farang and we do like to use our hands so maybe a bit of catering going on there,most of the camps i trained at didnt have Farang there and also didnt teach those type of skills.

Interestingly i have some super 8 movie footage from the 1950s in a camp in Thailand,there they are using a top and bottom ball,speed ball,and working hands a lot.

My main teacher was a top boxer in the 60s and he did teach slipping,rolling,and weaving,and was very good at it,however his camp where he learnt was a big punchers camp.

Personally i love those skills but dont teach the roll,bob and weave to my fighters,but do teach slipping.

[Ghost]

Ghost,your experience is different to mine,ive trained in around 15 different camps and never been taught to bob and weave,slipping yes,mainly to the outside,bobbing nope,weaving defo nope,and after watching and being part of literally thousands of rounds(over 25 years) i have rarely seen it in the rings of Thailand.
Samart Payakaroon and one or two others could pull it of but in top level company even he didnt overplay that type of move.

interesting, a lot of gyms are putting out boxers as well as thai boxers now even if its only one or two.
its true though they dont weave much in the ring, though they should imo and i think in time they will do it more.
i trained with sang tienoi for some time and it was definitely on the menu there as well as well as other places, depends where you go as some gyms simply didnt. nongkee did it too

[fire cobra]

slipping and weaving is taught in thailand.
I was taught it at several camps.I mean i knew it already but you know.

Ghost,your experience is different to mine,ive trained in around 15 different camps and never been taught to bob and weave,slipping yes,mainly to the outside,bobbing nope,weaving defo nope,and after watching and being part of literally thousands of rounds(over 25 years) i have rarely seen it in the rings of Thailand.
Samart Payakaroon and one or two others could pull it of but in top level company even he didnt overplay that type of move.