Spin kicks useful or useless?

[jules]

Sage,
If you look at Saku's fight against Victor Belfort on "PRIDE 5 - PRIDE 5 April 29, 1999" he uses a spin kick to the gut to hurt Belfort real bad.

[MuayThaiFighter]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis
Muaythaifighter... you misquoted me. I didn't say it was slower but had more power, I said it was slower TO REACH THE TARGET but has more power. Big difference. The spin kick is still FAST but it will take a fraction of a second longer to reach it's target then a jab punch or a teep kick for instance. The kick itself is still fast but it's like chambering a punch from way over your shoulder instead of from your jaw which will take longer... make sense?

Like IPON said.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

I know what you said that is why I wrote what I did.I am saying if it is slower to reach target then how can it have more power?The faster a technique is done whether it makes contact or not the less power will be involved.

If a technique is slower to reach does it not mean the technique is slower too.You can do a spin kick as quickly as you want it still will be slower then just doing a regular round house or lead leg kick therefore less power. In other words it takes longer to reach target because the technique is much slower.

You have to admit a front lead kick is always going to be a quicker technique than a spin kick and also reach the target quicker than the spin kick.

[JP Prideaux]

In K-1...

Francisco Filho KOed Duane van der Merwe with a Spin kick to the ribs

Stefan Leko KOed Harry Hooft with a back kick to the gut

Andy Hug KOed Mike Bernardo with a spin kick to the leg

Andy Hug KOed Hiromi Amada with a Spin kick to the body

Andy Hug KOed Tsuyoshi Nakasako with a Spin kick to the head

theres about 3 or 4 other KOs involving spinning back kicks with fighters on the undercards. And i kow or another 5 KOs of this nature outside of K-1 and MANY knockdowns.

Bottom line - they work - when executed correctly and at the right time. No need to get overly technical. Its a valid technique that is used by many of the top fighters. While its probably limited in Muay thai or kickboxing due to the practioners preference of techinque (stick to strong basics) - it is used a LOT in Kyokushin tournaments.

So yes - they are useful to a point in the ring - but not completely useless.

In the street is another story. . .

[IPON]

MTF - I do think you are missing the point. allthings equal an jumping front kick is slower than a front kick (fraction of a second or so) by the virtue of jumping, a cresent kick is also slower than afront kick and a front kink is probably slower than a reverse punch, please keep it in context. You do not have t o agree with the legitimacy of the technique, but make logical arguments. There are alot of people that can complete spinkin kicks with blinding speed, but all things equal I agree.

"The faster a technique is done whether it makes contact or not the less power will be involved."

MTF this statement is simply not true. While I said it does happen it is becuase people do not practice the technique properly......the goal of every technique is speed/power. You reject the concepts the circle/whipping power and the amount of power (torque/velocity) that can be generated. I have kicked many very large men into a wall while hold the heavy bag while I did these kicks. But that is the Dojang I do think my accuracy is good enough (for my standrds) to consider it a first or second move, but again in the right situation I would.

Becuase a tachnique may not work for you does not mean the technique is useless. Now the question of being practical in the street?? Hmm, I generally think any high kicks are risky, but again someone people really have the speed to pull off.


Your post was generated to ask a question, so you should be open to different opinions. Again we can agree to disagree, but disagree with the correct understanding of the technique.

[Thai Bri]

MTF - you're being a bit thick here!

Imagine two identical cars. Both travel at 80 mph, and both hit a crash test dummy. They both have the same power, yes?

But car 1 went round the block before it hit the dummy, whereas car 2 just went straight up to the dummy. Hence car 1 was "slower". It took more time for car 1 to reach the target. But it was still travelling at 80 miles per hour, so it had the same power as car 2.

Get it?

DUUUUURRRRRR!

[Great Sage]

Unfortunately, I don’t agree with most of you regarding spin kicks. However, I understand that to each their own, so I’ll just give you my conclusive opinion.

Originally posted by Damian Mavis
[BHowever you are wrong about the baseball bat analogy. If I can generate more power from a bat with a spin then so can everyone else and I know I can. It's slower to reach the target but has craploads more power. What about shotput? Try throwing the shotput as far as you can in the olympics WITHOUT spinning and you just lost.[/B]

Let’s revisit the baseball analogy. I highly doubt you would be able to generate more power from spinning to your backside and hitting a heavy bag. Unless of course you were taking multiple circular steps to generate more power—which coincidentally is the mechanics of shotputting, and not a spin kick where one spins on one foot. However, in shotputting, you turn to the front in circular steps to generate power. Therefore, comparing it to a spin kick is not realistic.

As I’ve stated before, it’s all mechanics... In a roundhouse kick, your weight is transferred from the back to the front with great torque, much like all powerful techniques: rear cross, straight right, etc... In the case of a spin kick, your weight stays in the front and power is not necessarily generated from the torque of weight shift, but spinning.

Originally posted by Damian Mavis And you are not supposed to be off balance when you do a spin kick, if you are it means you are not doing it very well at all.[/B]

Anytime a person is one foot and spinning, they are off balance. The difference is when executing a spin kick, you turn to your backside which causes more imbalance. This is evident in the fact that MANY people who use the spin kick, slow their spin to balance themselves by turning back and kicking, not necessarily spinning. Don’t tell me you haven’t seen this?

Originally posted by Damian Mavis I wish I could get you to hold pads for some of the monsters I have held for and you would instantly realise the power involved in spinning techniques. It is the only way, talking about it will never prove anything to you. [/B]

Well, it really makes no difference to me if you can spin kick. I prefer to use techniques that are higher probability, require less distance and are more mechanically sound. If anything, I can see a spin kick used as a desperation technique—you’re cornered by 2 guys, you knock the first guy down with a punch. In the corner of your eye, you see the other guy coming, but you can’t turn around to punch in time, so you spin kick... It’s a simple philosophy: use whatever works, but start with the high probability techniques.

[Damian Mavis]

MTF, slower to reach the target because it has further to travel BUT it still moves just as fast if not faster than it's straight cousins... like other people already tried to explain. The car analogy should have cleared that up.

Great Sage:

"I highly doubt you would be able to generate more power from spinning to your backside and hitting a heavy bag."

Yes actually that is exactly what I do, I am an expert in my field and this is my specialty, if you can't grasp the concept from me trying to explain it to you I am not surprised. Trying to teach martial arts techniques to people over the internet is next to impossible. What you need is to see someone do these kicks proficiently on you while you hold a pad (or not) and then it would become obvious to you.

"However, in shotputting, you turn to the front in circular steps to generate power. Therefore, comparing it to a spin kick is not realistic."

You don't realise that spin kicks go forwards and backwards, you seem to know only about back spin kicks. There are plenty I use that spin forward.

"As I’ve stated before, it’s all mechanics... In a roundhouse kick, your weight is transferred from the back to the front with great torque, much like all powerful techniques: rear cross, straight right, etc... In the case of a spin kick, your weight stays in the front and power is not necessarily generated from the torque of weight shift, but spinning. "

I'm sorry my friend but you have no understanding of the physics behind spin kicks, you simply don't. If I relied on just the spin to generate power I would have one wimpy spin kick. You understand roundhouse great, but you refuse to understand that the spinning kick that goes straight into my opponents gut is ALSO putting all my weight from the back to the front and into my target... The spin is ADDING to the already considerable torque. I don't know why you can't believe that, there are MILLIONS of people doing this exact kick by putting all the weight from the back to the front and through. By the way, that is NOT an exageration, millions are doing it. God I wish I could get someone to show you, but if you really want to see proof for yourself you neeed a proficient spin kicker to show you first hand.

"Anytime a person is one foot and spinning, they are off balance. The difference is when executing a spin kick, you turn to your backside which causes more imbalance."

As I said earlier spin kicks to the backside are only half the spin kicks available. In either case you are as off balance as a roundkick.... On one leg and if someone intercepts you (like with a teep) you go back off balance.

"This is evident in the fact that MANY people who use the spin kick, slow their spin to balance themselves by turning back and kicking, not necessarily spinning. Don’t tell me you haven’t seen this? "

Yes I know EXACTLY what you are referring to, these are what I and my colleagues commonly refer to as NEWBIES or in laymans terms WHITEBELTS haha. For the love of god man, leaning back all goofy and off balance with little to no power is how people look when they are first learning these kicks, it's how I used to look 13 years ago! If someone is trying to use spin kicks and they look like what you described then they are fooling themselves and in for a rude awakening.

And yes unfortunately I am all to aware that there are black belts out there that kick like this. Hey with millions of people practicing these techniques your going to get a fair number of nitwits and bad instructors, it's simply a numbers game and it's the reason arts like TKD get such a bad rep... There are very few serious practitioners like the ones that get attracted to Muay Thai. Walk into one the the thousands of TKD schools and it's loaded with familes and old folks, walk into a Muay Thai gym and it's full of young gung ho athletes. Maybe if Muay Thai was as popular as TKD and there were millions of Muay Thai practitioners we'd see alot more crappy Muay Thai practitioners too.

"Well, it really makes no difference to me if you can spin kick. I prefer to use techniques that are higher probability, require less distance and are more mechanically sound."

Yes but for the sake of this debate it sure would solve this fast if you just held pads for some of the fighters I have held for that left me with a splitting headache from the shattering force going up through my body into my neck and head...

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Nit]

ahem,

An effective kick is one with high energetic possibility, physics energy equation:
E=mgh + 1/2 mv^2 + 1/2 m (rW)^2

where
E = energy, m = mass, g = gravity acceleration (980 cm/sec^2), h= height, v = velocity, rW = angle velocity

Ergo dynamic energy is the sum of potential energy, kinetic energy and rotational energy.

Since M and G are constants we can only get higher energy through:
1. Height h (potential energy)
2. Velocity v (kinetic)
3. Angle rW (rotational)

The biggest possibility to gain energy being velocity.

The longer the distance between the foot and the target the higher the acceleration and hence higher velocity is attained.

Acceleration can be affected by using as many muscles as possible:
1. Waving of the body (like in vollyball)
2. Twisting of the body
3. Shifting wieght of the body

Twisting around a point
F1 X a1 and F2 x a2

when F1 and F2 are parallell (moment of a couple) has the effect of pulling back the opposite hip when kicking, gaining momentum (accelration) for the kicking leg.

The effictiveness of the moment is the vertical element to the axis
F1 Cos theta <= F1
the above is at maximum when theta is 0, therefore the maximum momentum when kicking is performed at 90 deg to the body line.

So spinning kicks in point, if you twist around your central axis (head to groin) then you are increasing your momentum, therefore acceleration and hence energy. however the kick must be in a forwards motion (90 deg to the bodyline) to have the maximum momentum. Sweeping the leg across will not have the same momentum (although it would have the acceleration from the mass of the leg and the height of the foot which may server to equal it out, but this is a waste of your energy as you have to get the leg up in the first place, why go up and down when you can do the same by just going up).

So technically a spin kick has more energy than a front fick because you have more energy in the rotation, momentum and velocity.

this doesn't mean its a better kick, it is 'slower' to perform than a front kick because of the distance your leg has to travel, however it travels at the same (or greater) speed that a front kick and is accumilating energy on the way... which is why it is so deadly.

With my instructor I often get the impression his front kick can break my ribs, but his spin kick can break my ribs and my spine (cut me in half).

I hope this is of help, I am not posting this as a 'definitive proof' just some information that I happen to know...

Data gathered from Shingo Ohgami

Peace

[JP Prideaux]

Originally posted by Nit
ahem,

An effective kick is one with high energetic possibility, physics energy equation:
E=mgh + 1/2 mv^2 + 1/2 m (rW)^2

where
E = energy, m = mass, g = gravity acceleration (980 cm/sec^2), h= height, v = velocity, rW = angle velocity

Ergo dynamic energy is the sum of potential energy, kinetic energy and rotational energy.

Since M and G are constants we can only get higher energy through:
1. Height h (potential energy)
2. Velocity v (kinetic)
3. Angle rW (rotational)

The biggest possibility to gain energy being velocity.

The longer the distance between the foot and the target the higher the acceleration and hence higher velocity is attained.

Acceleration can be affected by using as many muscles as possible:
1. Waving of the body (like in vollyball)
2. Twisting of the body
3. Shifting wieght of the body

Twisting around a point
F1 X a1 and F2 x a2

when F1 and F2 are parallell (moment of a couple) has the effect of pulling back the opposite hip when kicking, gaining momentum (accelration) for the kicking leg.

The effictiveness of the moment is the vertical element to the axis
F1 Cos theta <= F1
the above is at maximum when theta is 0, therefore the maximum momentum when kicking is performed at 90 deg to the body line.

Though I am by no means a rocket surgeon...

I agree... spinning around and sticking your leg out into another person CAN hurt them quite a bit.

[Lizard]

Even if it can be effective, if my life was in danger and I was full of adrenalin I would not attempt a spinning kick.

[retired]

mastorivich vs bonyaski

Spinning Heelkick

[retired]

Belfast (ireland) Kickboxing

Spinning Heelkick

These kicks do work when timed & are usefull later on in fights when your opponent isn't as nimble or trapped on the ropes.

[Nutz]

Just as you indicated, you need to consider how far into the match was it before those kicks were effective.

I've found that right off the bat, most spinning kicks, or kicks above the waist for that matter, are more or less unsucessful unless the opponent they're being used against is relatively unskilled in comparison to the person executing said technique.

Thats just my observation, take it or leave it.

[Damian Mavis]

I agree, when both fighters are fresh it's hard to land just about anything let alone a spinning kick. Waiting until your opponent is tired is a great strategy for just about any technique.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[retired]

Tomihira Vs Sefo

Spinning Backkick