Kata vs. Shadow Boxing

[sherwinc]

Guys like Mohammad Ali, Hollyfield,Mike Tyson,Lewis didn't waist their time with katas,they became good fighters from hard serious training which involves both shadow boxing and actual fighting in the ring.

do you think your Mohammad Ali, Hollyfield, Mike Tyson, Lewis can defeat Wong Fei Hung? Gen. Kwan Peng? Gen. Li? Fong Sai Yuk?
The founder of the Jing Wu Athletic Ass. from the movie Fist of Fury by Bruce Lee
The founder of the Jing Wu Athletic Ass. from the movieFist of Fury by Donny Yuen,
and
The founder of the Jing Wu Athletic Ass. from the movie Fist of Fury by Jet Lee?

[MuayThaiFighter]

do you think your Mohammad Ali, Hollyfield, Mike Tyson, Lewis can defeat Wong Fei Hung? Gen. Kwan Peng? Gen. Li? Fong Sai Yuk?
The founder of the Jing Wu Athletic Ass. from the movie Fist of Fury by Bruce Lee
The founder of the Jing Wu Athletic Ass. from the movieFist of Fury by Donny Yuen,
and
The founder of the Jing Wu Athletic Ass. from the movie Fist of Fury by Jet Lee?

Actually yes I do think these guys can beat Wong Fei Hung,Gen Kwan Peng, Gen Li,Fong Sai Yuk

Just because someone is a founder of some Athletic Ass. that has to do with a Bruce Lee movie means jack shit,because there is a difference between movies and reality.Bruce Lee's Fist of Fury is a movie not real life.

[Boxiados]

Oi'tsuki!

well, guys, I love katas for the simple fact that when used in a group of over 30/40 people it looks damn good, but that's the only thing where I see katas as nice thing.
As you said in your post, katas are "PRE-ARRANGED MOUVEMENTS" and that's the key word! anything pre-arranged is useless simply because fighting is instinctif! That's why shadow boxing is the ideal to devolop instinct in a fight...
If we take two people of same levels of strength who never practiced any form of fighting and trained them, one doing only shadow boxing and the other only katas, I am sure that if we make them fight, the one who trained doing shadow boxing would have more advantage.

OI TSUKI!

[MuayThaiFighter]

well, guys, I love katas for the simple fact that when used in a group of over 30/40 people it looks damn good, but that's the only thing where I see katas as nice thing.
As you said in your post, katas are "PRE-ARRANGED MOUVEMENTS" and that's the key word! anything pre-arranged is useless simply because fighting is instinctif! That's why shadow boxing is the ideal to devolop instinct in a fight...
If we take two people of same levels of strength who never practiced any form of fighting and trained them, one doing only shadow boxing and the other only katas, I am sure that if we make them fight, the one who trained doing shadow boxing would have more advantage.

OI TSUKI!

well, guys, I love katas for the simple fact that when used in a group of over 30/40 people it looks damn good, but that's the only thing where I see katas as nice thing.

Exactly they are for show,they're not for everyone though.I no longer care about doing katas,I find them boring but that's just me.

katas are "PRE-ARRANGED MOUVEMENTS" and that's the key word! anything pre-arranged is useless simply because fighting is instinctif! That's why shadow boxing is the ideal to devolop instinct in a fight...

Exactly.You hit that right on the spot.

If we take two people of same levels of strength who never practiced any form of fighting and trained them, one doing only shadow boxing and the other only katas, I am sure that if we make them fight, the one who trained doing shadow boxing would have more advantage.

YEP,Most definitely. As long as you realize that you'll get somewhere in martial arts.

I think if I am correct that we both know the facts because we've both been in real fights before and both have done shadow boxing for either boxing or muay thai.

[HtTKar]

What is so odd about the angles of attack used in shadow boxing? It makes more sense then going across the floor and stepping behind one leg to turn to the other side and to make sure you end a kata exactly from where you started it.

MuayThaiFighter.

My point here was missed. Being able to attack, and hit hard from many different angles (as one does when boxing) is a great advantage. Whereas many Katas are straight forward and backwards. Or straight side-to-side.
You have a very good argument, but if you're talking about preparing for a real fight, I dont believe that shadow boxing alone can do it.
You're right about putting yourself in another frame of mind by shadow-boxing one time, and then fighting another. I was wrong to say you needed a Kata to do that.
Of course, neither ali, Hollyfield, tyson, or any other great boxer practiced Katas. I dont think they practice roundhouse kicks on a heavybag either. I'm sure they all practiced pre-arranged movements and drills with their trainer, and that did not make them any less effective. The prearranged movements they practiced actually helped them with footwork, handspeed, and slipping punches. They also had the ability to study their opponents on tape before fighting them. They knew their opponents weaknesses before ever stepping in the ring, and trained for that. Most boxers have a boxer they like to emulate. They study that person, and practice that persons style and techniques.
Kata are not meant to teach a person how to fight. They teach a style and technique, And they teach you how you can refine that technique.
Shadow-boxing alone will not prepare someone for either the ring, or a real fight either. Only having been in real fights can prepare you for a real fight. I am never scared or nervous when I shadow box. The next best thing is full contact sparring, against someone who enjoys fighting back.
Shadow boxing is not the same as Kata, but it is not the same as fighting either.

[MuayThaiFighter]

MuayThaiFighter.

My point here was missed. Being able to attack, and hit hard from many different angles (as one does when boxing) is a great advantage. Whereas many Katas are straight forward and backwards. Or straight side-to-side.
You have a very good argument, but if you're talking about preparing for a real fight, I dont believe that shadow boxing alone can do it.
You're right about putting yourself in another frame of mind by shadow-boxing one time, and then fighting another. I was wrong to say you needed a Kata to do that.
Of course, neither ali, Hollyfield, tyson, or any other great boxer practiced Katas. I dont think they practice roundhouse kicks on a heavybag either. I'm sure they all practiced pre-arranged movements and drills with their trainer, and that did not make them any less effective. The prearranged movements they practiced actually helped them with footwork, handspeed, and slipping punches. They also had the ability to study their opponents on tape before fighting them. They knew their opponents weaknesses before ever stepping in the ring, and trained for that. Most boxers have a boxer they like to emulate. They study that person, and practice that persons style and techniques.
Kata are not meant to teach a person how to fight. They teach a style and technique, And they teach you how you can refine that technique.
Shadow-boxing alone will not prepare someone for either the ring, or a real fight either. Only having been in real fights can prepare you for a real fight. I am never scared or nervous when I shadow box. The next best thing is full contact sparring, against someone who enjoys fighting back.
Shadow boxing is not the same as Kata, but it is not the same as fighting either.

Sorry budd I misunderstood what you were trying to say.I don't believe shadow boxing alone will help you win a fight either.Shadow boxing is the foundation for being able to fight but actual sparring is what gives you true fighting experience in martial arts.

Where I disagree with you is when you say these pro boxers practiced pre-arranged movements too,because boxers and kickboxers don't have pre-arranged movements,which are actually katas in arts like karate,kung fu etc.

I don't know about other boxers but I watch videos of my own fights and see where I might have gone wrong or could use some work on,because I always want to get better no matter what.

Shadow-boxing alone will not prepare someone for either the ring, or a real fight either. Only having been in real fights can prepare you for a real fight. I am never scared or nervous when I shadow box. The next best thing is full contact sparring, against someone who enjoys fighting back.

No of course not you need sparring to prepare to fight in the ring.I believe sparring can prepare one for a real fight but there is no guarantee of a win but chances of winning is higher.I also agree that real fights prepare one more for a real fight then anything else,but that's the obvious and I know from experience as I used to get in real fights all the time.

Again I agree with you as far as the full contact sparring goes, because I also know from experience point sparring doesn't do any good except avoid people from having to go to work with a huge black eye or broken nose most of the time.

[HtTKar]

The prearranged movements I was speaking of are drills that a trainer would give to focus on hand-eye coordination. But they would only be pre-arranged between the trainer and the fighter. So yeah, Its not the same as Kata.
Watching your own fights is great, when you start getting tired you make a lot of little mistakes that you dont notice until your actually watching them. It's good to train for that. Its good to watch your opponents, too, and see what mistakes they make. . Some people have certian tendencies, maybe you can catch them making one
I really appreciate your honest answers. Talking about shadow-boxing and Kata, what do you really think about point-sparring as a training tool?
I've always thought that point-sparring is actually detrimental as it gives some people a false sense of security. Thinking they can actually win a fight with the same tactics they use in point-sparring. I know what you mean. Once you get your nose broken, you remember to keep your guards up a little more, and really make sure you dont get your nose broken again. Thats when you begin to realize that some of the things you were taught just dont work when someone else is trying to break you. I could think of more good reasons for Kata, than point-sparring. If your goal is either to be a great fighter, or great at an art, are there any good reasons for point-sparring? Just a question I've been wondering for a long, long time.

[MuayThaiFighter]

The prearranged movements I was speaking of are drills that a trainer would give to focus on hand-eye coordination. But they would only be pre-arranged between the trainer and the fighter. So yeah, Its not the same as Kata.
Watching your own fights is great, when you start getting tired you make a lot of little mistakes that you dont notice until your actually watching them. It's good to train for that. Its good to watch your opponents, too, and see what mistakes they make. . Some people have certian tendencies, maybe you can catch them making one
I really appreciate your honest answers. Talking about shadow-boxing and Kata, what do you really think about point-sparring as a training tool?
I've always thought that point-sparring is actually detrimental as it gives some people a false sense of security. Thinking they can actually win a fight with the same tactics they use in point-sparring. I know what you mean. Once you get your nose broken, you remember to keep your guards up a little more, and really make sure you dont get your nose broken again. Thats when you begin to realize that some of the things you were taught just dont work when someone else is trying to break you. I could think of more good reasons for Kata, than point-sparring. If your goal is either to be a great fighter, or great at an art, are there any good reasons for point-sparring? Just a question I've been wondering for a long, long time.

what do you really think about point-sparring as a training tool?

I think point sparring is a waste of time because the only thing it teaches you is to throw out a punch or kick quickly and yet pull back on them,which you can't do on street and point sparring is all about scoring points.Where as with full contact sparring you not only have to move quickly but there is no pulling back on your punches or kicks and on the street are you going to pull your punches or kicks to try and just score for points? Of course not,you'd have to be an idiot to.

I've always thought that point-sparring is actually detrimental as it gives some people a false sense of security. Thinking they can actually win a fight with the same tactics they use in point-sparring

I totally agree with you.

Once you get your nose broken, you remember to keep your guards up a little more, and really make sure you dont get your nose broken again. Thats when you begin to realize that some of the things you were taught just dont work when someone else is trying to break you.

Exactly.

I could think of more good reasons for Kata, than point-sparring. If your goal is either to be a great fighter, or great at an art, are there any good reasons for point-sparring? Just a question I've been wondering for a long, long time.

I think Katas are even worse then point sparring so there I'd have to disagree with you.

If your goal is to be a great fighter through martial arts then you need to fight full contact,because point sparring won't do much to help.

If your goal is to be good at an art there is always ballet.

Martial Arts was originally meant for self-defense, if not practiced like that a person should find something different to do.

So as far as I am concerned there are no good reasons for point sparring or katas.

I know some people will disagree and say it's not fair to say that since not everyone joins martial arts for same reasons but I'm just giving my opinion.

[TONGPO]

I've always thought that point-sparring is actually detrimental as it gives some people a false sense of security. Thinking they can actually win a fight with the same tactics they use in point-sparring

Hmmmon its own point sparrin is no good. But we do use it occasionallly, to help us practice techs we may not want to when a mistake means a punch in the nose, shin in the thigh with some (if not full) force. I think it helps as sometimes in a fight, youmay not be able to land with your bread and butter techs...the guy may have much better reach, reactions, speed etc and it takes a slightly more 'fancy' tech toland somethin or to get in there. If you want ot fight you need hard sparring though, there's no way round it.



As far as kata......last night I just stood in front of a mirror and threw pre-decided combos 50 x each. This enabled me to get the tech and my gaurd,chin ect perfect while doing it. It also buidls muscle memory. These are both useful for fighting...would you not agree? And could these not also be described as 'kata' if not I don't undersatand the difference

[AlexJitsu]

Forms are necessary to develop the proper structure in Hsing Yi. There are exercises for root, structure, balance, coordination, and leg strength at best. There are few techinques in Hsing Yi forms, just principles. Certain ways you can hit a person, but not "block a pipe" and then do this combination and blah blah blah like Karate katas.

...and Hsing Yi is internal.

[MuayThaiFighter]

Hmmmon its own point sparrin is no good. But we do use it occasionallly, to help us practice techs we may not want to when a mistake means a punch in the nose, shin in the thigh with some (if not full) force. I think it helps as sometimes in a fight, youmay not be able to land with your bread and butter techs...the guy may have much better reach, reactions, speed etc and it takes a slightly more 'fancy' tech toland somethin or to get in there. If you want ot fight you need hard sparring though, there's no way round it.



As far as kata......last night I just stood in front of a mirror and threw pre-decided combos 50 x each. This enabled me to get the tech and my gaurd,chin ect perfect while doing it. It also buidls muscle memory. These are both useful for fighting...would you not agree? And could these not also be described as 'kata' if not I don't undersatand the difference

we do use it occasionallly, to help us practice techs we may not want to when a mistake means a punch in the nose, shin in the thigh with some (if not full) force

You can practice techniques without accidently punching someone in nose by doing shadow boxing or hitting focus mitts or even using kicking shields and still be able to use full force.


If you're worried about a punch in nose or shin in thigh by mistake then you shouldn't be in martial arts in first place,because accidents do happen and martial arts isn't supposed to be for whimps.Whether you're a pro fighter or amateur you're going to make mistakes and you're going to get hit deal with it.

As far as kata......last night I just stood in front of a mirror and threw pre-decided combos 50 x each. This enabled me to get the tech and my gaurd,chin ect perfect while doing it. It also buidls muscle memory. These are both useful for fighting...would you not agree? And could these not also be described as 'kata' if not I don't undersatand the difference.

I agree all are useful for fighting and I also agree that what you're talking about is same as doing kata but there is still a difference.Let me explain.

It is true that improving technique,guard and chin are very useful for fighting,no doubt about that.However it's not always about what you practice but also about how you practice it and how you described yourself doing it is same if not worse then doing katas.

There is a right and wrong way to practice things here is an example:

Shadow boxing is the right way because it involves moving around in different directions throwing combinations and does not involve pre-arranged movements,in shadow boxing you create your own combos and decide how you're going to picture yourself fighting using everything you've learnt in classes such as different punches,kicks,elbows and foot work.

What you described yourself as doing sounds same as katas so I would agree with you asking if is it not the same as kata.

Standing infront of a mirror and just throwing 50 combos is just as useless as doing katas.Infact it is even worse since you're not moving around.

Katas are pre-arranged techniques that often repeat itself. In katas you use techniques in away that has already been set for you because that's how the style of whatever art you are learning does it.With katas you always move in a straight line whether it be straight forward,straight side to side and straight backwards.In shadow boxing you move in a circular direction as well as straight forward,back,side to side and diagonally using proper foot work.In katas or most katas anyways there is no moving in a cirular direction or diagonally because each form has a set pattern and once the pattern has been messed up the kata has been destroyed.

[TONGPO]

You can practice techniques without accidently punching someone in nose by doing shadow boxing or hitting focus mitts or even using kicking shields and still be able to use full force.


If you're worried about a punch in nose or shin in thigh by mistake then you shouldn't be in martial arts in first place,because accidents do happen and martial arts isn't supposed to be for whimps.Whether you're a pro fighter or amateur you're going to make mistakes and you're going to get hit deal with it.

1) But then its pre-arranged techs, I'm talkin about free sparrin, thinkin on the spot, pullin something out of the hat.
2)So you're calling me a wimp?? I can't deal with gettin hit? Whats your record? Im proud of mine, and 75% of the time spar with enough force to get the occasional broken rib, broekn foot, broken nose. I've had all these and dealt with em. BUt I still stand by my comment. I'll try and explain, I'm sparrin with someone better than me, I don't want to get hit. Thats not the same as being a wimp, as not dealing with it, its common sense. I hate being hit, it hurts. So I as everything I do ends up with him catching me I tend to close up, block and move. Throw a quick jab low kick, move again. Anythin else doesnt work cos he's got a great guard and can read me....now to get in I may need to use more 'fancy tech' or maybe techs I'm not as comfy throwing.

Now cos I'm not an idiot I dont wanna get hit so I may hold back with these and they'll be slower to develope in a free spar enviroment. If we're just landing very lightly it gives me chance to practice these things without gettin my nose broke?

I agree all are useful for fighting

Standing infront of a mirror and just throwing 50 combos is just as useless as doing katas.Infact it is even worse since you're not moving around.

spot the contradiction? Have you actually fought? Never had a situ where you don't need to move? Ever heard of ropes??Ever had someone on em??

Man I'm really restraining myself here, cos I don't think you knwo anywhere near as much as you make out, I may be wrong, hence the restraint.

I agree that just doin the 50 techs I mentioned and sparring is not the grounds of good figt training, but its a part of it. As is running, conditoning, padwork, bagwork, stretching etc etc

Or is stretchin not woth doing cos ya can't hurt anyone with it??

[MuayThaiFighter]

1) But then its pre-arranged techs, I'm talkin about free sparrin, thinkin on the spot, pullin something out of the hat.
2)So you're calling me a wimp?? I can't deal with gettin hit? Whats your record? Im proud of mine, and 75% of the time spar with enough force to get the occasional broken rib, broekn foot, broken nose. I've had all these and dealt with em. BUt I still stand by my comment. I'll try and explain, I'm sparrin with someone better than me, I don't want to get hit. Thats not the same as being a wimp, as not dealing with it, its common sense. I hate being hit, it hurts. So I as everything I do ends up with him catching me I tend to close up, block and move. Throw a quick jab low kick, move again. Anythin else doesnt work cos he's got a great guard and can read me....now to get in I may need to use more 'fancy tech' or maybe techs I'm not as comfy throwing.

Now cos I'm not an idiot I dont wanna get hit so I may hold back with these and they'll be slower to develope in a free spar enviroment. If we're just landing very lightly it gives me chance to practice these things without gettin my nose broke?




spot the contradiction? Have you actually fought? Never had a situ where you don't need to move? Ever heard of ropes??Ever had someone on em??

Man I'm really restraining myself here, cos I don't think you knwo anywhere near as much as you make out, I may be wrong, hence the restraint.

I agree that just doin the 50 techs I mentioned and sparring is not the grounds of good figt training, but its a part of it. As is running, conditoning, padwork, bagwork, stretching etc etc

Or is stretchin not woth doing cos ya can't hurt anyone with it??

So you're calling me a wimp?? I can't deal with gettin hit? Whats your record? Im proud of mine, and 75% of the time spar with enough force to get the occasional broken rib, broekn foot, broken nose. I've had all these and dealt with em. BUt I still stand by my comment. I'll try and explain, I'm sparrin with someone better than me, I don't want to get hit. Thats not the same as being a wimp, as not dealing with it, its common sense. I hate being hit, it hurts. So I as everything I do ends up with him catching me I tend to close up, block and move. Throw a quick jab low kick, move again. Anythin else doesnt work cos he's got a great guard and can read me....now to get in I may need to use more 'fancy tech' or maybe techs I'm not as comfy throwing.

I didn't mean you in particular being a whimp,that wasn't my point.

I have fought people just as good as me as well as people better then me full contact,sure I get hit and it may hurt but I don't mind getting hit because it toughens me up and gets me fighting even harder.I like to work my way in on partner so I can go for the clinche and start throwing knees.I have had broken nose,slipped disk in jaw,pulled muscle near knee and just missed ligments but I still go back fighting smarter,faster,harder and improve my technique but that's just me I guess.

I guess I'm just used to fighting bigger guys then me and getting hit hard that I don't mind it.

Have you actually fought?

Yes,I fight all the time,my favourite part of martial arts.

My record is about 90% of wins.

[TONGPO]

'justyou'? i'd guess it works for many people, just doesnt need to be full on ALL THE TIMEis my point,thats all

[shirase]

I live in a fairly safe area and at the karate school I go, my sensei tells us he just wants to preserve the 'art' of karate(goju-ryu.) Because this is the case our school does katas prob at least 50% of each class. This is fine because its mostly for preservation of the arts and for fun. Katas are fine for this reason, however people who tell themselves that doing gekusai dai ichi 50 times a night will make themslelves better fighters should wake up and smell the roses. And those people who say its good for getting good form, thats true but there are more efficient ways that dont mess up muscle memory(shadow boxing example.) So basically katas are fun and all but they do jack for making yourself a good fighter