What is Muay Choa Chur?

[Nitro]

I hate to say this, but ya read some ridiculous shite on this forum.

Can someone please tell me what "Muay Choa Chur" is supposed to mean? I've lived in Thailand for fifteen years, and have yet to hear it used once. Granted, I'm more partial to professional Muay Thai, but I also know more than a bit about the history. The only thing I can think of is that the term refers to Phra Choa Seua, the "Tiger King". Kun Luang Sorasak, or Phra Chao Seua, was a King during the Ayuttaya period. Legend has it that he fought incognito (commoners were not allowed to touch the King) and defeated some of the best boxers.The more famous boxer from the same period is Nai Khanom Dtom, who was captured by the Burmese and won his freedomby defeating their best boxers.

If I'm right, the term "Muay Choa Chur" is an exotic sounding (but mostly meaningless) name used to impress
gullible foreigners. Thais know foreigners fall for this sort of thing every time, and have therefore thrown in a few of the old
moves and thought up a great sounding name.

Don't be fooled. Professional Thai boxers are not taught the ancient system. The true "masters" of the old system (people who actually used it in competition) died long ago.

Caveat Emptor

[S.Anucha]

mate no offence but I have met many farang who have lived for many many years in Thailand and dont know much about either the country or the history.... I am not saying you fall into this category so relax. But please dont think That I am some gulliable foreigner.

read this : (you probably already know this)

History & Traditions;
..............................................Muay Thai & Krabi Krabong

About 4000 Years Ago, Ai-Lao (As the Thai's were called By the Chinese)
Settled In West Central Asia, Having Fought Their Way Up From The Indian
Continent. Their Federation Of Kingdoms Grew & Flourished Until 200 B.C.,
When The Han Dynasty Of China Began Their Wars Of Expansion, Vastly
Outnumbered, The Ai-Lao Managed To Hold Off Wave After Wave Of Invading
Armies, Thanks Chiefly To Their Great Skill With Weapons, But Eventually,
The Greater Numbers Of The Chinese Won Out & The Ai-Lao Became Vassals To
The Szechuan Empire. Rather Than Live Under Chinese Rule Many Of The
Ai-Lao Gradually Migrated South Into The Forests & Jungles Of Southeast
Asia. The Wandering Ai-Lao's Divided Into Three Branches: The Shans Who
Settled In Burma, The Ahom Who Went East Into Vietnam & The Loa-Tai Who
Wandered Into Laos.
By The 7th Century A.D, The Ai-Lao Tribes Still In China Had Become The
Independent Kingdom Of Nanchao. & For The Next 100 years, Nanchao & China
Were Constantly At War Usually As Enemies, But Occasionally As Allies
Against The Tibetan tribes To The West. (One Tibetan Tribe, The Burmans
Later Became Thailand's Worst Enemy).

By The End Of The 9th Century, Nanchao Had Been Absorbed Into The Chinese
Empire But At The Same Time, The First Thai States Were Forming Into Laos
& Siam.
These New Thai States Not Only Had To Battle Against The Hill Tribes But
Were Also Challenged By The Ancient & Powerful Empire Of The Khmers.
Originally From India, The Khmers Immigrated Into South East Asia Prior To
400 B.C. & By The 6th Century Were The Strongest & Richest Empire In Asia,
Controlling Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia & Parts Of Siam & Malaya & Sumatra.

The Khmers Had Elite Troops Called Nayars, Who Formed Their Warrior Caste.
They Were Scientifically Trained In All Aspects Of Combat, Including Mime
& Acting To Gain A Psychological Advantage Over Their Enemies. It Is Said
That The Nayarís Mime Skill Was So Great; He Could Pretend To Throw A
Spear So Convincingly That An Enemy Warrior Would Actually Feel Of His Body Being Pierced.

The First Battles Between The Ai-Lao & The Khmers Began In The 11th
Century, The Ai-Lao Survived, & In 1238, Finally Managed To Capture Two Of
The Khmerís Cities, Creating An Embryo Nation Called Muang Thai 'Land Of
The Free'. In 1253 The Ai-Lao Kingdom Of Nanchao In China Was Invaded By
The Mongols Of Kublai Khan, Forcing A Mass Migration South Into Siam. With
This Sudden Increase In Their Numbers, The Ai-Lao Became A Powerful Force,
Ready To Expand & Conquer.
By The Year 1350, Northern Siam & Most Of Laos Was United Into The Kingdom
Of LAN Xang & Prince Uthong Of Ayudhhya Began A New Dynasty, Which Was To
Last For 400 Years. This Was The Golden Age Of Thailand, But With Its
Prosperity Came Constant Warfare Against The Burmese To The West & The
Lhmers To The South East.

To Ensure The Survival Of Their Country, The Great Warriors Of The Nation
Were Brought Together & Distilled The Vast Combat Knowledge Of There
People Into A Training Manual Called The Chupasart. Because The Methods Of
Combat Training Were Recorded & Kept Up To Date, The Martial Art Of
Thailand Never Fragmented Into Different Styles & Systems. There Were
Improvements & Innovations Added To The Text, But Every Change Was First
Proven On The Battlefield Or In The Ring.

Thailand's First Legendary Martial Artist Was Prince Naresuan , Who Spent
His Youth (While Being Held Hostage By The Burmese) Studying The Art Of
Warfare. When He Eventually Released, He Modified Siamese Boxing To
Supplement & Conform to Weapons Use, The Strikes & Blocks Of Boxing Were
Modified To Duplicate The Movement Of Weapon Combat. Prince Naresuan
(Known As The Black Prince) Created Duets (Two Man Sets) & Fighting
Drills, He Also Staged Boxing Competitions & Large Scale Combat Exercises,
To Increase Bravery, Endurance & Strength, While Teaching The Science Of
War To His People.One Of TheTwo Man Sets Was For The Sabre (Krabi) & The
Staff Or Spear (Krabong). This Is The Name Of The Mother Art Of
'Krabi-Krabong'.

Muay Thai Boxing (Or Muay Chao Chur As It Was Called Then) Was Created,
because Too Many Soldiers Were Being Killed Or Injured Training With
Weapons, & Although Thai Boxing Is A Devastatingly Effective Sport, It
Lacks The Deadly Refinement & Efficiency Of Krabi-Krabong. The 'Black
Prince' Eventually Died Around 1590, While Leading His Army Against The
Burmese. Muay Chao Chur Slowly Evolved Into Muay Thai, Becoming The
National Passion In The Early 17th Century Due To Exploits Of Pra Chao
Sua, A Thai Monarch Who Wandered Siam In Disguise, Challenging All Comers
& Remaining Undefeated For Seven Years, Many Of The Techniques From His
Personnel Fighting Method Became The Basis Of Modern Muay Thai.

[S.Anucha]

and the rest of it :

Another Very Well Known Thai Boxer Was A Commoner Named Khanomtom, He Was
Among Some 30,000 Thais Taken To Burma As Prisoners After The Second Fall
Of Ayutthaya In1767, The Next Year A Grand Festival Was Held At A Buddhist
Temple In Rangoon Where A Holy Relic Of The Buddha Was Enshrined. Boxing
Contests Were Organised At The Temple & Khanomtom Was Sent As A
Representative Of The Thai Prisoners Of War. Having Been Well Trained In
The Use Of His Fists, Feet, Knees & Elbows. Khanomtom Incredibly Defeated
10 Burmese Boxers In Succession & Was Highly Commended By The Burmese
King.

After Expelling The Burmese Aggressors In Late 1767, Phraya Taksin
Ascended The Throne At Thom Buri, Himself A Great Warrior & Keen Boxer,
The King Spared No Efforts In Promoting The Art Of Hand To Hand Fighting,
He Held Boxing Matches In His Palace Grounds, Among These The Best Known
Was Phraya Phichai "The Broken Sword", He Got The Nickname Because He Once
Broke His Sword In A Fierce Fight With The Enemy & Subsequently killed The
Enemy With The Broken Sword.

Rama (1) Who Founded The Chakri Dynasty In Bangkok In 1782, Also Used The
Grounds In Front Of His Palace As An Arena Where Boxing Matches Were Held
To Select Guardsmen. Once During His Reign, There Were Two French Brothers
Coming To Bangkok Looking For Rivals In Free-Style Boxing Contests, They
Had Toured Several Cities In Indochina For The Same Purpose & Had Won
Allot Of Money, To Meet The Challenge The King Assigned His Foremost Boxer
Muen Phlan To Fight One Of The Brother's, & Was somewhat Of An Uphill Task
For The Thai Boxer Who Was Inferior In Size & Weight, However He Was Able
To Use His Superior Skills To His Advantage & Defeated The Brothers One
After The Other.

Rama (V) (1868-1910) Was Another King Who Was A Great Patron Of Boxing, He
Promoted The Martial Art By Setting Up His Own Boxing Camp & Encouraging
The Prince's & Other Members Of Nobility To Do The Same In All Major
Cities In The Country.

Rama (V1) (1910-1925) Took A Step Further By Allowing Commoners To Run
Their Own Boxing Camps, Boxing Rings & Competitions, With The First Modern
Boxing Ring Being Erected In The Rose Garden Palace In Bangkok.

In Provincial Bouts The Combatants Wore Horsehide Thongs Wrapped Around
The Fists & Forearms (To Slash The Opponents Skin) & A Piece Of Tree Bark
(Held In Place By Cotton Loincloths) To Protect The Groin, Later The
Horsehide Thongs Were replaced By Hemp Rope, Wound Around The Fists &
Wrists, Then Layered Over The Glue Soaked Cloth Strips That Hardened Into
Stone Gauntlets. For Grudge Matches Ground Glass Or Pebbles Would Be Mixed
With The Glue. In The Worst Traditions Of Back Alley Fights, Larger Fought
Smaller Fighters & The Bouts Went On Until A Fighter Could Not Stand, The
Loser Horribly Maimed Or Killed. This Carnage Continued Until The Late
1930's When The Thai Government Intervened To Force The Competing Regional
Associations Adopt International Boxing Rules , Weight Divisions & Padded
Gloves.

The groin guard later became a triangular shaped pillow, red or blue, tied
around the waist with a through strap between the legs. This innovation
was also in response to the growing success of Thai Boxers in
international boxing. the groin was a perfectly legal move up until the
1930's. In the early days, the protection was made from tree bark or
seashells held in place with a piece of clothe tied between the legs and
around the waist.
One Of The Stranger Things Was The Timing Device , Which Was A Holed
Coconut Shell , Which Was Placed In A Tub Filled With Water At The
Beginning Of The Round, The Round Ended As Soon As The Coconut Shell Was
Completely Immersed In The Water.

The establishment of stadiums, instead of makeshift rings and courtyards,
began during the reign of Rama VII before the Second World War. During the
war, they gradually disappeared but mushroomed again soon afterwards -
Muay Thai had not lost any of its appeal. The boxers from up-country once
again headed toward fame and fortune in Bangkok. The glory could be found
at stadiums like Rajdamnern and Lumpinee. Nowadays in the provinces, you
can find villager's clusted around any available TV to watch the sport.
Whilst in the city, people disappear from the streets while Thailand is
watching Muay Thai.

Thai Boxing is also becoming increasingly popular outside of Thailand. It
has its enthusiasts and practitioners in the America, Australia, Italy,
Holland, England, Russia, and Japan, as well as in many other countries
around the world. Training camps have been set up in many countries,
creating large numbers of professional and amateur Muay Thai boxers,
coached by many Thai and non-Thai Instructors.

Provincial Arenas Will Have As Many As Twelve Bouts On A Fight Card,
Bangkok's Big Two Stadiums Ratchadannoen & Lumphini Having Eight Bouts
With The Fifth Bout Designated As Koo Ehk Or Main Bout, Before The Actual
Fight , Hinayana Buddhist Traditions Take Precedence. The Kun Kru Will
Pray Over His Fighters At Ringside, A White Flower Tied To The Corner Post
For Additional Good Luck & To Attract Good Spirits. The Trainer Then
Places The Mongkon (Crown) On The Fighters Head , A Cloth - Covered
Headpiece Trimmed With Tassels , Which Is Said To Possess The Spiritual
Power Of The Kun Kru & All The Fighters In Their Camp. On The Fighters
Left Biceps Is Tied The Kruang Rang, A Hemp Cord Filled With Good Luck
Charms, Protective Herbs & Pictures Of Buddhist Gods.

On Entering The Ring The Fighter First Performs The Wai Kruh Of Honour Bow
, Kneeling In The Direction Of His Birthplace & Covering His Eyes, and
Bowing Low Three Times So That His Glove Touch The Canvas. He Then Stands
& Begins The Ram Muay , A Pre-Fight Ceremonial Dance To Summon Up Good
Powerful Spirits & Scare Away Bad Spirits From There Corner & It Serves As
A Show Of Respect To The Kun Kru & As A Boxing Camp Signature Dance, Which
Prevents Fighters Trained By The Same Kun Kru

From Fighting. Siamese Musicians Playing Drums , Flutes & Ching (Cymbals)
Accompany The Fighters During The Prefight Rituals & Bout , Helping Each
Fighter To Find His Own Personnel Fighting Rhythm. They Will Quicken The
Musical Tempo To Speed the fighting Pace If Things Get Sluggish .

While Moving In The Ram Muay, The Fighter Will Chant Secret Mantras
(Spells) In Order To Fill The Ring With His Aura & So Dominate His
Opponent. The Fighter Moves On The Four Points Of The Compass, Arms Waving
& Wind milling , Feet Stomping & Slapping His Gloves Together To Keep Evil
Spirits At Bay.

After The Completion Of The Ram Muay , The Fighter Will Stalk The Ring ,
One Glove Touching The Top Rope To Seal The Ring Off From Negative Crowd
Vibrations . He Will Stop At Each Corner & Stomp Down Or Hit The Corner
Pad Once For Each Rope, Filling It With His Aura & Blocking It As A Haven
For His Opponent. Once Finished The Fighters May Then Taunt Each Other ,
But No Blows May Be Struck In Anger. Just Before The Sound Of The Opening
Bell The Kun Kru Says A Short Prayer & Removes The Mongkon, Blowing Into
The Fighters Hair For Good Luck.

Any Part Of The Body Is Fair Game In Muay Thai Bout & Can Be Attacked With
The Fist , Foot, Elbow & Knee. Pro Bouts Run For Five , Three Minute
Rounds With Two Minute Rest Breaks In Between , The Only Protective
Equipment Allowed Are Elastic Instep Anklets , A Steel Groin Cup , A
Rubber Gum Shield (Optional) & Six Or Eight Ounce Gloves. Head Butts , Leg
Sweeps , Hip & Shoulder Throws Are Prohibited. The Referee & Two Side
Judges Keep A Scorecard, The Referee Having The Last Word As To Ring
Suspensions, Disqualification's & The Revoking Of A Fighter Purse.




Krabi Krabong

Today Muay Thai Can Be Seen Everywhere , But The Martial Art System Of
Krabi-Krabong Can Only Be Learned In A Few Places , The Military Cadet
Schools Teach The True Combat System Of Unarmed Combat Called Lerd Rit
(Meaning Extreme Power) This System Incorporates Breaking Boards & Glass
Bottles With The Elbows , Krabi-Krabong Is Also Taught In Some
Universities As Well As The World Famous Buddhai Swan Temple . The Buddhai
Swan Temple Also Has An Ancient Tradition Much Like The Shaolin Temples In
China, Since The 14th Century , The Buddest Monks Have Been Teaching
Martial Arts As A Philosophy & As A Way Of Life.

Although Firearms Have Replaced The Sword & Shield , Thailand's 20th
Century Soldiers Still Study The Old Ways Of Fighting At The Buddhai Swan
Institute , "Guns Are Fine As Long As There Is Ammunition But What Do You
Do When It Runs Out".
The Foundation Of Krabi-Krabong Is An Unarmed Combat System, Before
Picking Up The Sword , You Must Develop & Train The Natural Weapons Of The
Body. At This Stage Krabi-Krabong Most Closely Resembles Muay Thai , You
Have To Look Closely To See The Locks, Throws , Breaks & Pressure Points
Strikes Which Make The Mother Art So Much More Dangerous Because Of There
Roots Are Maintained As A Lethal Fighting Art Not As A Sport.

After The Empty Hand Skills Have Been Acquired & The Student Is Accustomed
To The Hitting & Blocking Of Techniques With Power, You Move On To Learn
The Sword . While There Are Long Weapons Like The Staff Or Spear The Short
Range Weapons like The Knife , Axe & Tonfa , The Sword Remains The Primary
Weapon Weather Used Singly , In Pairs Or With A Shield & The Underlying
Principles Of Thai Sword Fighting Remain The Same As In Muay Thai (Speed &
Power) Techniques Must Be Thrown With Full Power But Also In A Controlled
Manner . This Forces The Defender To Either Block Or Completely Avoid The
Onslaught Parries & Checks (As In Filipino Arts Do Not Work Against This).
To Enhance The Power Behind The Blow, Breathing Techniques , Body Movement
(Body Dynamics & Kinematics ) & Footwork (Yang Sam Kum) Are Used You 'Load
Up' By Rising Up Onto The Balls Of Your Feet & Explode Into The Strike By
Dropping Or Bending The Knee As You Deliver The Technique (Using The
Momentum Generated By The Acceleration Of The Body * Weight Of The Body =
Impact Force ).


Pahuyuth


ok Niteo, again I aint arguing with you but wouldlike to clarify that you are wrong in some things about what you speak and please read this

http://www.pahuyuth.de/phy/mt/mt_00e.htm

I trie dhard to finbd some credibale sites for resources.

you will notice that Muai = one/single but Muay actually means boxing.


relax, dont argue just read and then go ask you "master"

I train in a place on a suburb of Chiang mai, my teachers are very experienced, the trainer who drills me daily is only 27 years old but the older Thais teach me styles which are "ancient" forms of Muay Thai. It is not a farang influenced style in any way. So are you gonna tell me where exactly are you in Thailand?

thanx

Its a strange place the north, a little different ways than central and south Thailand.

So I am returning back to Thailand in December to train fight, and fight professionally, maybe not at the bigger stadiums but never-the-less I will be paid! If you feel that you would like to catch up with me as I pass through Bangkok then I would gladfully meet up for a flying "argument" no honestly, for a cofffee and a bark. Relax, 15 years is a long time to be in Thailand I have but been there for a year and I can hold a converstation in Thai no problem (I am, sorry to say, one of those guys who picks up languages like a duck takes to water) I have been travelling since 1997 so I am fuly aware of all the cons that abound in Asian countries. Anyway what the **** are you doing in Thailand for the last 15 years....? just out of curiosity.

The link I added, please go there and read History, I think you will be surprised to what you may learn.

[Nitro]

Before I make a few comments, I'd like to clarify my earlier statement. I see that a lot of you have questions about Muay Thai, but it's hard to get accurate information about it; the few books you can find on the subject in English are not very comprehensive, and much of what you find on the Internet is complete B.S. My earlier statement was, therefore, not meant as as an insult, but to tell readers of this forum to be more discriminating. Now my latest rant:

For the sake of keeping the debate simple, the distinction between Muay Thai the ring sport, and the earlier forms of boxing/
martial arts from Thailand should be made. If you use the term Muay Thai with the average Thai, he'll think immediately of
the professional sport. Look at the four major Muay Thai weeklies (Muay Siam also has a daily edition) and you will see no reference to martial arts. Western style boxing always gets plenty of coverage, however. Virtually all of Thailand's world champions come from the ranks of Muay Thai. (This fact should shut the mouths of people who claim that Muay Thai fighters have no power in their punches.)
Muay Boran ("Ancient" Boxing) is a different concept (though the two forms have a common root). Muay Boran stems from the desire to systemize the older forms (Muay Korat, Muay Chaiya, etc.) in order to preserve them. This started in the 1920s and has continued to this day. The approach to the two systems is different. Muay Thai fighters might enter the ring after mastering just a few simple moves. Muay Boran is treated in the same way as other traditional martial arts. The traditions and customs are emphasized and the techniques take years to master.

As far as Muay Chao Chur is concerned, I stand by my earlier statement. Prince Naresuan reigned from 1590-1605.
The techniques/strategies used in Muay Thai has changed in just the past 20 years. There is no way that you'll find a pure form of Muay from 400 years ago. Those of you interested in the traditional side of Thai arts should look into studying Muay Boran or Krabi-Krabong.

Finally, a statement about halfway through that article sent by S. Anucha caught my eye: "... people disappear from the streets while Thailand is watching Muay Thai." Man, if only this were true; I wouldn't have to put up with this freakin' traffic! In reality, there are so many fights that the average Thai hardly pays notice. For the hell of it, I took a look at the upcountry (i.e.outside of Bangkok) fight results for the first week of October. The total number of fights from 16 programs was 195. There were a staggering 23 fights on one program. Add this to the televised bouts and regular programs for Greater Bangkok, and your looking at a nationwide total of approx. 300 fights... in one week!

[S.Anucha]

Originally posted by Nitro
....the few books you can find on the subject in English are not very comprehensive, and much of what you find on the Internet is complete B.S....


....As far as Muay Chao Chur is concerned, I stand by my earlier.... statement.

True, internet is not a very good source for credible information but there are some sites that do hold some genuine content worth reading.

And are you now happy you know what Muay Chao Chur is?

lol

http://www.pahuyuth.de

http://www.mastersken.com/

http://www.muaythai.com/En/indexkon/mainkon.html

these sites are only a few of the ones that are credible, written by Thai Muay Thai/Muay Boran/Krabikrabong experts. Master Sken is one hell of a teacher and one hell of a martial artist.

[S.Anucha]

nitro read this : very interesting!

http://www.pahuyuth.de/text/kul/kul03e.htm

[Khun Kao]

I don't have anything at all to add. I just wanted to say that this is a REALLY AWESOME thread!!!!!

Please keep this discussion going!

Ok, I do have ONE tiny tidbit to add....

Much of the written history of Muay Thai was lost back when, I believe, the Burmese sacked the Thai state in the 1700's. Bear with me, I don't remember the exact details, I'm too lazy to look them up right now, and I've been drinking... (LOL)

So much of the recorded history of both Thailand AND Muay Thai has been lost.

Brooks (Khun Kao)

[Nitro]

Much of the Thai historical record was lost when the Burmese attacked Ayutthaya in 1767.
Check out this site for a bit of the history:

https://www.thailandgeographic.com/ayutthaya/ayutthaya-en.html

Also, I'm fairly sure the term "Muay Chao Chur" is a misspelling. Old style Muay Thai is sometimes called "Muay Chao Cheuak" ("Cheuak" means rope). Muay Chao Cheuak refers to the time when boxers would wrap rope round their hands (Ayutthaya period).

The misspelling would explain why I'd never heard of it.

[chalambok]

the method of fighting with the hands wrapped with knotted ropes was taught to me at the Buddhai Swan as the art muay Kacheuk. This was translated from Thai to English for me by Master Surachai Sirisute's sister Nantarat. Interestingly enough, Master Chai's father had a completely different explanation of the phrase than does Master Chai. Just as English has changed over the centuries, so perhaps has Thai. Maybe we have all been dancing with the same girl, but calling her by different names.

[Nitro]

That last sentence is a good way of putting it, and quite possibly correct. Muay Kaht Cheuak definitely means Muay Thai fought with the hands wrapped with rope. There is still an annual "Kaht Cheuak" competition between Thai and Burmese boxers. From the way I've heard it used, Muay Chao Cheuak is a more general term referring to Muay fought in earlier times.

This site has a good picture of a fist wrapped in the old way. Click on the "History of Muay Thai" section:

https://www.thaiboxings.genesis.mweb.co.th