Best Legal Weapon to carry

[Kobudokai]

You can come up with all the creative legal weapons you want. Sure a baseball bat is legal. Sure you can use a pocket knife or your belt. They even sell "unbreakable" umbrellas now strictly to be a non-suspicious legal weapon.

The problem comes when you actually use whatever weapon you have on some one. If you break a mans cheek bone with a nunchaku or a baseball bat, you're looking at the same amount of trouble either way. Just because one weapon can be considered legal to carry around doesn't mean it's legal, to injure some one with.

If you get in a street fight, don't think you can whip out your "legal" weapon to defeat your opponent and expect the police to give you a pat on the back about it. If you really feel the need to carry a weapon, check out your local laws to see what type of self defense items are legal (pepper sprays, tasers, etc.)

[KirkhamsEbooks.]

Once again it's the intent as to why you have that item with you. You can be charged with carrying a weapon and assault with the weapon. Pepper spray and a baseball bat would get you the same charges if you attack someone with them.

Rick

[DickHardman]

salt 1 is awsome....

[DickHardman]

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[DickHardman]

the spyderco native.....

[DickHardman]

wow.....spyderco push prototype.....

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[DickHardman]

spyderco pheonix

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[DickHardman]

What kind of steel is Spyderco using these days, Dick?

vg10, h1(rustproof), cpms30v, cpm d2(new steel, supposed to be pretty good)

i personally like vg10 the most. h1 is pretty nice too.

[DickHardman]

I've read about D2, and I have a large Kershaw blade made of the stuff. Not sure about the rustproof stuff, though. Sounds like it'd be really heavy on chrome and vanadium and other metals that don't really help performance.

the h1 is good. i have a spyderco salt 1 thats made with h1. i sliced through a backpack with it, and accidentally hit the zipper. the blade sliced through the zipper no problem

[DickHardman]

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[Guest]

[bodhisattva]

Best self defense weapon for the average joe (especially if he is in MMA)

Easily, by far, the very best self-defense for the average guy is a pair of steel-toed shoes.

New Balance even has steel-toed RUNNING shoes.

If you ever need to get out of a crowd in a hurry, a pair of steel toes will certainly "part the waves" for you.

Likewise, if you ever find yourself outnumbered or outclassed and can't get away, a pair of steel toes will be an incredible surprise - he won't know you have them til after you've used them.

There are TONS of police reports about guys with pocket knives not being able to stop a determined attacker. The police show up, and the other guy is carved to shreds - and typically stomping the life out of the guy with the knife. Yeah, he's BLEEDING all over - but he's still stomping, too.

Likewise, guns need to be cleared, loaded, aimed and fired. One of my sparring partners was a Marine CQB team leader - that's close quarters battle - the guys who burst in doors and kill everyone in the room in 3 seconds.

He made it clear to me that a handgun is not a "deathbutton" in anyone's hands. It has to be 1) cleared of your clothing 2) a bullet has to be in, or put in, the chamber 3) it must be aimed 4)and fired.

But your steel toes are right there on your feet, ready to go.

--

My other weapon of choice would be a very, very powerful flash light. Paul Sharp from Straight Blast Gym Chicago gave me that answer. He said if you are accosted at night, a quick unexpected blinding with a high power flash light will make it very easy

1) to escape
2) to ensure your opponent can't aim his shot if he has a gun

or, if you are checking out a suspicious event,

3) you can shine your light on the attack, and inform the attacker you are calling th epolice on your cell (while you call the police on your cell)

--

But steel toes are definitely my favorite. You can get steel toe dress shoes, running shoes, casual shoes.. all in brand names.. Converse, Doc Marten, New Balance, Adidas.. And I doubt any jury will convict you for "carrying a concealed weapon with intent to harm." Did you know if you pack a screwdriver (a very legal item) and someone on a subway robs you, and you stab them with the screwdriver, that the screwdriver suddenly becomes a "weapon" in the courts? Do you know why? It's because you USED IT AS ONE, so that is obviously why you had it CONCEALED. Now, you suddenly are dfending a concealed weapon with intent to harm charge, and YOU WERE BEING MUGGED.

No joke.

You think that when you pull your 4 inch spyderco clip-it knife out, and carve up some mugger, that a jury is going to rule on your side? Are you serious? Your jury is made up of 12 people who have a) never had to defend themselves b) if they had to, they probably DIDN'T defend themselves c) they don't pack knives d) they've never stabbed ANYONE e) they see photos of all the blood in your "mugging defensive action" and think you are way worse than the mugger f) Mr. Stabber goes to jail.

If a screw driver can be deemed a "concealed weapon" do you think your 4 or 5 inch knife won't? The jury does not relate with you after you cut up your attacker. However, if you are wearing safety shoes, and they just happen to be available to help you when the big scary guy came to hurt you - do you think the jury is going to say "He was obviously wearing them as a weapon?" Probably not - and definitely not as likely as they will a knife. They will say "Good thing he had on safety shoes."

And if your knife is curved like an eagles talon, and has big scary holes in the blade and handle, and it says "GutCutter" on the blade, or "Top Commando" or "Street Savage" or some other shit - and when the mugger's lawyer pulls it out of a ziplock, and plunks it down on the table - and it looks all scary - WHAT do you think the jury will say about it? "He's a guy, just like me."

NO. They aren't going to say that. They normally DON'T say that.

They NORMALLY say "Holy jeezus Christ what kind of mongrel is this guy did you see that freaking knife it was made for hurting people and he packs it around oh my jeezus was this guy even really mugging him who is the worse person I don't relate with mr stabber at all he scares me his knife scares me i'm real scared."

But, Steel toes? Will they likely crucify "joe average" for defending himself with boots on? Nah. Boots protect your feet. Period. If you don't do something unnecessary and stupid like kick the guy's entire skull half-in, the cops probably won't even check to see if you have steel toes.

[bodhisattva]

While it can be a good option, like anything, steel toed shoes have serious disadvantages. Don't kid yourself. A good lawyer would most assuredly call into question why you make it a habit of wearing steel toed shoes every day. Woe be unto you if you don't work in a capacity that might require them. Even if there are plenty of legitimate defenses, there are also plenty of reasons to call the action into question, and all too often, juries are willing to believe negatives before positives. Also, ever try to kick while standing on uneven ground? Stairs? Icy sidewalks? Ever felt what steel toed shoes do in the cold weather? They freeze your toes right off your feet, because the steel gets cold and stays colder than just about any fabric going. Also, you need a certain degree of skill and ability to apply kicks to an attacker, and you have to stay danger close, meaning he can still kill you dead if he's armed. I'd say the disadvantages are right about on par with a firearm, if not slanted in the firearm's favor.

Also, the flashlight doesn't make much more sense than a pistol. It still has to be cleared, it still has to be aimed, and it still has to be activated. But what you have at the end of the day is...a light. It won't do any more damage than a palm stick if used as a weapon, and high-tech answers such as sunglasses and daylight can make your "weapon" completely ineffective. Unless of course, you plan on only being attacked by bad guys on dark and stormy nights. A pistol takes very little time to deploy, especially if you train with it, and situational awareness can ensure it's drawn before it's ever needed. And the best part is, once it's drawn, it can work to actually stop an attacker, day or night, rain or shine.

The argument that it's not a magic pill is ridiculous if you're using it as an attempt to discredit firearms. Fact is, nothing - not even flashlights and steel toed shoes - are "magic pills" either. And they all take significantly more training and better attributes to apply with effectiveness than most firearms.

Since the answer almost always comes down to the person, the choice of tools is rather incidental. Still, if you're talking about one tool that can give almost anyone an advantage over almost any sized person, a firearm trumps most other options.

If the Marines didn't believe that, they'd go to battle carrying flashlights and pepper spray, wearing steel toed boots instead of carrying rifles and handguns and bayonets. Incidentally, what does your Marine CQB buddy clear his rooms with?

My CQB buddy, obviously, uses firearms.

(taken too many shots to the head, Mike? I mean, he's a Marine.)

I didn't mean to kick you in your "firearm nerve." I grew up with guns. I killed stuff when I was little. I killed stuff when I was older. By the time I was 16 I could point-shoot rabbits. Ok? So get off of me.

But, being able to point-shoot rabbits, there was still an interval where someone could close the distance, and either get BOTH their hands on mine, or go straight to a knock out shot (which makes it pretty hard to draw and aim your weapon, even if you don't go down to the canvas/grass/whatever.)

What my buddy was telling me was that most people in our society with weapons are overconfident and know almost nothing about them. I gota say, coming from a very rural area, I find that to be true now that I live in the city. I grew up shooting every day for fun. If my dad was pissed, I'd kill something, bring it back to him, and he'd like me again. You can imagine I did a lot of shooting, as a result.

Now that I'm in the city, and I see people own hand guns, I ask myself "How are they going to hit anything with it - they shoot at a target range as a hobby." Hand guns are hard to aim. Period. Could I hit a rabbit with one? Yes, I could. Did it take a shit load of time and ammo to get there? Yes, it did. Can I do it now? Hell no. Because you gotta keep up with it. Do these people shoot daily, for fun, with intent to kill (even an animal, if not a human?)
No.

And that is part of what my Marine buddy was passing on as well. That most of these assholes can't aim worth a shit at point blank range, much less hit a running target.

And knowing that can make a shit load of difference if you are the target. Not knowing creates an "He already gots me dead" mindset, the person goes numb, they get shot a lot.

Do I recommend people fight someone who has a firearm? No. I don't even recommend people fight someone who has a stick or a knife - run.

But if someone is pulling a firearm on me, saying "Oh yeah, MF, well, check this.." am I going to launch at his ass and knock him the **** out? I'm pretty sure I will, yeah.

And why? Because I know it's not a death button. I know he has to clear it, chamber it, and aim it before he gets to step 4 - trigger pull. And until he does, he isn't "armed."

I don't think it's likely that an attacker at night will be wearing "hi tech answers" like sunglasses. If he has sunglasses on, well, shit, Mike, he got me. You can put it on my tombstone, I really don't mind a bit "The Bastard Had Sunglasses."

As far as icy weather, and kicking on icy ground - you got me there too. In fact, it's really hard to punch on icy ground, so maybe I should quit boxing - it's obviously useless. Now that I think of it, grappling/clinch on icy ground has a certain level of difficulty to it, too, so maybe I'll stop wrestling, too. Good thinking, you saved me a lot of time there!

Man, come to think of it - MOST EVERYTHING I CAN THINK OF is harder on icy ground. So I think I'll just hibernate from now on - and only come out when it's warm and safe and not icy.

To my knowledge, it doesn't take much skill to kick someone about the knee and shins with steel toed shoes. Now, if you are talking about a jump flip backspin chuck norris round kick - sure. But see, that's the beauty of the steel toe - You simply don't need be Chuck Norris.


Yes, yes, Mike. You're right - a gun is better. But I'm not too sure why you bothered posting it. Is there (truly) anyone on this site who doesn't already know a gun is better?

I mean, were you really attempting to make me understand that "gun beats flashlight" in the fighting game of rock paper scissors? I think we're on top of that.

But I also think its really hard to aim when I've been blinded. Unless, I'm out at 3am with sunglasses.

Most of us, if we pack a gun and use that gun, are going to prison. I really don't think the jury will look on some work boots the same way they look at a knife or a gun. I have never met a single person who looked on a pair of work boots the same way they see a knife or a gun. There is a HUGE difference in the emotional reaction people have to the word "boot" and "knife/gun"

So, I'm not too sure what you're saying. But I like guns, too, so you can chill.

[bodhisattva]

While it can be a good option, like anything, steel toed shoes have serious disadvantages. Don't kid yourself. A good lawyer would most assuredly call into question why you make it a habit of wearing steel toed shoes every day. Woe be unto you if you don't work in a capacity that might require them. Even if there are plenty of legitimate defenses, there are also plenty of reasons to call the action into question, and all too often, juries are willing to believe negatives before positives. Also, ever try to kick while standing on uneven ground? Stairs? Icy sidewalks? Ever felt what steel toed shoes do in the cold weather? They freeze your toes right off your feet, because the steel gets cold and stays colder than just about any fabric going. Also, you need a certain degree of skill and ability to apply kicks to an attacker, and you have to stay danger close, meaning he can still kill you dead if he's armed. I'd say the disadvantages are right about on par with a firearm, if not slanted in the firearm's favor.

Also, the flashlight doesn't make much more sense than a pistol. It still has to be cleared, it still has to be aimed, and it still has to be activated. But what you have at the end of the day is...a light. It won't do any more damage than a palm stick if used as a weapon, and high-tech answers such as sunglasses and daylight can make your "weapon" completely ineffective. Unless of course, you plan on only being attacked by bad guys on dark and stormy nights. A pistol takes very little time to deploy, especially if you train with it, and situational awareness can ensure it's drawn before it's ever needed. And the best part is, once it's drawn, it can work to actually stop an attacker, day or night, rain or shine.

The argument that it's not a magic pill is ridiculous if you're using it as an attempt to discredit firearms. Fact is, nothing - not even flashlights and steel toed shoes - are "magic pills" either. And they all take significantly more training and better attributes to apply with effectiveness than most firearms.

Since the answer almost always comes down to the person, the choice of tools is rather incidental. Still, if you're talking about one tool that can give almost anyone an advantage over almost any sized person, a firearm trumps most other options.

If the Marines didn't believe that, they'd go to battle carrying flashlights and pepper spray, wearing steel toed boots instead of carrying rifles and handguns and bayonets. Incidentally, what does your Marine CQB buddy clear his rooms with?

My CQB buddy, obviously, uses firearms.

(taken too many shots to the head, Mike? I mean, he's a Marine. )

I didn't mean to kick you in your "firearm nerve." I grew up with guns. I killed stuff when I was little. I killed stuff when I was older. By the time I was 16 I could point-shoot rabbits. Ok? So I know some about guns, if not a lot.

But, if my weapon was holstered - even being able to point-shoot rabbits - there was still an interval where someone could close the distance, and either get BOTH their hands on mine, or go straight to a knock out shot (which makes it pretty hard to draw and aim your weapon, even if you don't go down to the canvas/grass/whatever.)

Do I want to be that guy trying to close the distance? No, I'd far, far, far rather be the guy trying to clear the gun. I'm probably going to clear the weapon and aim it and shoot him, right? But he's still got that opening chance.

That's what my buddy was telling - that most people in our society with weapons are overconfident and know almost nothing about them. I gotta say, coming from a very rural area, I find that to be true now that I live in the city. I grew up shooting every day for fun. If my dad was pissed, I'd kill something, bring it back to him, and he'd like me again. You can imagine I did a lot of shooting, as a result.

Now that I'm in the city, and I see people own hand guns, I ask myself "How are they going to hit anything with it - they shoot at a target range as a hobby weekly." Hand guns are hard to aim. Period. Could I hit a rabbit with one? Yes, I could. Did it take a shit load of time and ammo to get there? Yes, it did. Can I do it now? Hell no. Because you gotta keep up with it. Do these people shoot daily, for fun, with intent to kill (even an animal, if not a human?)
No.

And that is part of what my Marine buddy was passing on as well. That most of these assholes can't aim worth a shit at point blank range, much less hit a running target.

And knowing that can make a big difference if you are the target. Not knowing creates an "He already gots me dead" mindset, the person goes numb, they get shot a lot.

Do I recommend people fight someone who has a firearm? No. I don't even recommend people fight someone who has a stick or a knife - run.

But if someone is pulling a firearm on me, saying "Oh yeah, MF, well, check this.." am I going to launch at his ass and knock him the **** out? I'm pretty sure I will, yeah. I hope I will, anyway.

And why? Because I know it's not a death button. I know he has to clear it, chamber it, and aim it before he gets to step 4 - trigger pull. And until he does, he isn't "armed."

I don't think it's likely that an attacker at night will be wearing "hi tech answers" like sunglasses. If he has sunglasses on, well, shit, he got me. You can put it on my tombstone, I really don't mind a bit "The Bastard Had Sunglasses."

As far as icy weather, and kicking on icy ground - you got me there too. In fact, it's really hard to punch on icy ground, so maybe I should quit boxing - it's obviously useless. Now that I think of it, grappling/clinch on icy ground has a certain level of difficulty to it, too, so maybe I'll stop wrestling, too. Good thinking, you saved me a lot of time there!

To my knowledge, it doesn't take much skill to kick someone about the knee and shins with steel toed shoes. Now, if you are talking about a jump flip backspin chuck norris round kick - sure. But see, that's the beauty of the steel toe - You simply don't need be Chuck Norris.


Yes, yes. You're right - a gun is better. But that's pretty obvious. I'm just pointing out a few things people may not think about when it comes to guns. Most people think they are the "death button." Meaning, if a guy has a gun, it's a death button, and if he pushes that button, you die. While that isn't FAR from the truth, in my opinion, it's still not entirely true. So I thought I'd point out a couple things?

Such as: its really hard to aim when I've been blinded. Unless, I'm out at 3am with sunglasses.

Most of us on this forum - if we pack a gun and use that gun - are going to prison.

I really don't think the jury will look on some work boots the same way they look at a knife or a gun. I have never met a single person who looked on a pair of work boots the same way they see a knife or a gun. There is a HUGE difference in the emotional reaction people have to the word "boot" and "knife/gun"

But I don't wear steel toes, personally. I don't even own a clip-it anymore, much less pack one around. And my guns, currently, are all at my dad's house. And, honestly, when we box - I'm not much for kicking. So I'm not giving any of this advice because I currently practice it.

I simply think a pair of steel toed shoes is better than a clip-it or a can of mace. And, I think in nighttime circumstances, a burst of incredibly bright light can be the best sort of distraction to evade an attacker - especially if a gun is involved.

I know it's crazy.. But I still think it.

[bodhisattva]

Bodhi,
So it doesn't take any skill to be able to kick well? You glossed over some important points:



First things first. How many hours of darkness are the average forumgoers awake and out on the town? Maybe a third of the time they spend in daylight hours? So your flashlight is useful for one quarter of the time people are exposed to violence - and you still have to clear your clothing, draw it and aim it, or you aren't armed. Fine, at 3AM, it can be of serious help. What about at noon? Do attacks just never ever happen in the daytime where you live?

If most people on this forum are of legal age and are properly licensed, carrying a gun is no different in the eyes of the law than carrying your flashlight, with one exception. Almost every state that issues concealed carry permits requires the licensee to prove competence and training with their firearm, so strictly speaking, a firearm is not only every bit as legal, but it's one of the best regulated weapons you can carry. Which I'm sure is why you don't often hear of too many people who are licensed, legal CCW prmit owners getting in trouble for gun violations.

I'm not discounting other methods, but the thread is not called "What are some good weapons." The thread was entitled "What is the best weapon." Firearms fill that bill any way you look at it.

And if you don't think a lawyer could present the picture of you using steel toed boots to stomp someone's teeth out - literally caving in parts of his body and smashing his bones and rupturing muscle and organs with savage, gang-land style kicks and stomps - to generate sympathy from a jury, you're nuts. And how do you rebut that if you don't work in construction or in a factory someplace? You can't, any more than you could rebut accusations of intent at carrying a baseball bat around with you at the mall and using it as a weapon.

I never said that you should stop doing anything because it has limitations, so you can quit with the desperate, overly exaggerated, melodramatic "I guess I should quit boxing then, too because you can't use it all the time!" comments, too. What I said was that a gun will trump almost every other weapon in almost every conceivable situation for the average person. You said it yourself - you wouldn't even tangle with some untrained punk who had a gun. Why? They work. Again, the thread asked what the BEST legal weapon to carry FOR SELF DEFENSE was. Guns are still legal in this country, and have proven time and again to be more effective at stopping violence than most other weapons, even without having to fire. Did you know that in over 90% of cases when a firearm was even displayed, altercations simply stopped cold in their tracks, and no one was hurt, even when no shots were fired? Upwards of 90%! What kick in your arsenal can say that?

Are there people out there who can't use them as well as others? Yup. But if you look back, I didn't recommend being one, did I? I recommended training with it like you would anything else in which you intend to place your trust. Wearing steel toed shoes isn't exactly a magic pill either, is it? Or do you just lace them on and now you're a self-defense wizard?

See? The ridiculous arguments work well all the way around.

As for your Marine room clearing buddy? Of course he uses a gun, and it's not just because he's a Marine, either. It's because anyone with any measure of sanity will choose a gun and grenades over steel toed shoes and a flashlight in a life and death situation. And why? (EVERYBODY!)

Because Guns Work Better.

Mike, I can't believe you are still telling the forum that guns are better. Do you SERIOUSLY think anyone here needs you to type 5 pages to prove that point? Seriously?

See, bro, most of us can't pack guns. So your "guns are better" looks pretty silly.

The guy who told me the flashlight trick, I'm pretty sure, is active Chicago SWAT. I mean, maybe he's wrong, and Mike Brewer - Internet Guy, is right. Cool, I can handle that. Weirder things have happened.

I just can't get over it. You are still trying to tell us that guns are better.

I mean, we all KNEW that, Mike. What is wrong with you? You REALLY REALLY think anyone on this site (over the age of 16) thinks guns aren't better?

We just can't ALL carry guns. We aren't all cops, Mike, with codewords so that our "buddies" know when we are about to beat some perp into the ground. We're real people, who need real solutions.

And for most of us, packing a handgun simply isn't feasible.

---

And, Mike (king of misquoting) I never said a lawyer wouldn't point out I had steel toed boots, and use it against me.

I, DID, however say that no one has the same reaction to a pair of steel toed boots as they do to a knife or a gun. "Knife" and "gun" are some pretty strong ugly symbols compared to "boot."

Again, I'm sure you won't understand that. You'll type two more pages telling us "GUNS R BETTER" and we'll go on nodding, because its as obvious as "the sky is blue."