Anti-Grappling

[J-Luck]

Hey I've slipped during a fight before, anyone whose ever been in one has. Slipping and being knocked to the ground do happen, but if thats the only the way I'm going to get there. I wont be using the shoot to attack, and neither will anyone else with common sense. I do practice ground work (30 plus years of JJJ) with the intent to regain standing ASAP. I have seen multiple dumbassed kids out of high school and college hospitalized by a soldier in a bar fight or street fights...not once did a see the wrestling and grappling work in real fight...so much for the hype.

That's your experience. I seen people hospitalised by a quick throw. That's it. A throw. Simple takedowns.

I've never seen subs work in a real fight, but only because I've never seen a trained sub grappler fight before. I'm sure it would be devestating to break somones arm in a couple places, or choke them till they pass out(2-3 sec choke).

[IPON]

you DON'T get random searched in NYC(unless you're carrying it in your backpack-in which case it's not really serving a SD purpose) and you won't "get caught" unless you do something dumb like bring it into a school w/metal detectors or a federal building.
Also, notice the part about it being specifically meant to be a weapon...so no fixed blades, get a tactical/utility folder less than 4" in blade length.

Honestly, the big issue based on the cases I've looked up is how you use lethal force. If you used a knife when you weren't justified that's when you'll really pay for it in court...ILLEGAL possession is merely a misdemeanor, assault/manslaughter/murder is a bit of a step up from that.

Big Red I think you need to re-read my posts we are arguing the same point (one of the links is for teh same penal statute I quoted). I never said that police do random searches (though it can happen). I am not is high scool and I certainly don't use backpacks walking around the city. My point was to Boarspear who stated empty hand is worthless in SD always use weapons (which I don't totally disagree). The point I was trying to make was it is easier to follow that philosophy when it is legal to carry (guns/knives). In NY state and City that is not the case. I carry a knife and a knife and baton when I work as a bouncer I understand the legalities very well. If I am wrong fine, but you have not provided that information. And you are correct it becomes an issue when the weapon is used becuase of how the state looks at weapons reagrdless of why it was used you should not have carried it. I agree with the thought of being judged by 12 than carried by 6. Also, I can assure that the forum you sited is wrong in that there is no distintion made in the law for blade length in NYC it is a common misconception. I think the
4" blade length is more an unspoken rule like if you are within 8-10 mph of the speed limit you probably will not get a ticket. Antyway, I don't want to beat a dead horse I think we are saying the same thing. I am just speaking to the letter of the law what is enforced is obviously a differnt issue

[BoarSpear]

Big Red I think you need to re-read my posts we are arguing the same point (one of the links is for teh same penal statute I quoted). I never said that police do random searches (though it can happen). I am not is high scool and I certainly don't use backpacks walking around the city. My point was to Boarspear who stated empty hand is worthless in SD always use weapons (which I don't totally disagree). The point I was trying to make was it is easier to follow that philosophy when it is legal to carry (guns/knives). In NY state and City that is not the case. I carry a knife and a knife and baton when I work as a bouncer I understand the legalities very well. If I am wrong fine, but you have not provided that information. And you are correct it becomes an issue when the weapon is used becuase of how the state looks at weapons reagrdless of why it was used you should not have carried it. I agree with the thought of being judged by 12 than carried by 6. Also, I can assure that the forum you sited is wrong in that there is no distintion made in the law for blade length in NYC it is a common misconception. I think the
4" blade length is more an unspoken rule like if you are within 8-10 mph of the speed limit you probably will not get a ticket. Antyway, I don't want to beat a dead horse I think we are saying the same thing. I am just speaking to the letter of the law what is enforced is obviously a differnt issue

Dude I didnt say empty hand was useless!! I said its the WEAKEST place to defend from! BIG difference! We cant walk around with weapon in hand (nor should you unless in a combat zone) so you need empty hand to buy time and occupy space and in some cases it may be all you have, any weapon is better than none. I also believe empty hand is critical for learning body feel, you need to develop striking skills and a grappling base so you can hopefully attain positional control with the ability to takedown your opponent and avoid his takedown attempts. I think that should be taught to every kid in every school...boxing, wrestling, football, soccer, and bjj I think it would create a strong nation

Empty hand also teaches self awarness etc and it is good for self esteem and building a fighting spirit, its also the base for your later weapons training.

[IPON]

I seem to remember a flashlight putting an end to a wrestler who brought it into the fight with him here locally not that long ago. If you mistake sd for grabbass thats your problem aint it? Empty handed is the WEAKEST position from which to play SD,those who chose to specialize in empty hand for SD dont live in reality.

Boar I may have misunderstood your post. I was responding to the last sentence. Are you saying that someone should always try to find some type of weapon? It reads as empty hand is usless (ie unrealistic) for SD. My point was there are some staes where carrying (concealed or otherwise is illegal). So most times all you have is empty hand there may not be any sticks, pipes or bricks to use as weapon defense.

[bigred389]

Big Red I think you need to re-read my posts we are arguing the same point (one of the links is for teh same penal statute I quoted). I never said that police do random searches (though it can happen). I am not is high scool and I certainly don't use backpacks walking around the city. My point was to Boarspear who stated empty hand is worthless in SD always use weapons (which I don't totally disagree). The point I was trying to make was it is easier to follow that philosophy when it is legal to carry (guns/knives). In NY state and City that is not the case. I carry a knife and a knife and baton when I work as a bouncer I understand the legalities very well. If I am wrong fine, but you have not provided that information. And you are correct it becomes an issue when the weapon is used becuase of how the state looks at weapons reagrdless of why it was used you should not have carried it. I agree with the thought of being judged by 12 than carried by 6. Also, I can assure that the forum you sited is wrong in that there is no distintion made in the law for blade length in NYC it is a common misconception. I think the
4" blade length is more an unspoken rule like if you are within 8-10 mph of the speed limit you probably will not get a ticket. Antyway, I don't want to beat a dead horse I think we are saying the same thing. I am just speaking to the letter of the law what is enforced is obviously a differnt issue

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=288930

Check out posts #11 and 12.

I checked with an ex-NYPD LEO a couple of years back, and it fits with what I heard back then as well:
1)folders only-no fixed, switchblades, etc.
2)has to be "difficult" enough to open not to be a "gravity knife"
3)has to be a "utility" knife(so no karambits, or other exotic blade types)-I was told the KEY here is that then it can be said it's not a knife intended solely for use as a weapon.

Granted, I completely understand if you're less than willing to go on the word of what somebody says on the Internet, so I'd also recommend you stop in at your local precint to see what they have to say if you'd like to get more reliable info.
My story was I go climbing and that I carry it for that purpose(sorta true).

And I didn't mean the backpack thing in that sense...I mean briefcase, construction belt...whatever your day job might require. Hell...I still carry my old tattered backpack...too cheap to shell out the cash for a messenger bag like everybody else carries. Point is...they're only doing random searches of bags/luggage in the subways, and even then it seems to be a matter of do you fit the "profile".

[BoarSpear]

Boar I may have misunderstood your post. I was responding to the last sentence. Are you saying that someone should always try to find some type of weapon? It reads as empty hand is usless (ie unrealistic) for SD. My point was there are some staes where carrying (concealed or otherwise is illegal). So most times all you have is empty hand there may not be any sticks, pipes or bricks to use as weapon defense.

No you chose to interpet it that I said it was useless or unrealistic. I said it was the weakest point to defend from, do you disagree? Isnt it always better from the defenders point of view to be armed in a conflict?

Think about it, this is boar, I aint afraid to say what I think If I wanted to say something was useless for SD I wouldnt have any problem saying so, or arguing with the people who disagreed, but that isnt what I said...a shoe, a belt, a scarf, a magazine, a small dog on a leash (swung as an impact weapon), all those are better than being empty handed against a knife...

[bOoRadley]

My anti's name is peggy

[Tant01]

Oh, Man...

No you chose to interpet it that I said it was useless or unrealistic. I said it was the weakest point to defend from, do you disagree? Isnt it always better from the defenders point of view to be armed in a conflict?

Think about it, this is boar, I aint afraid to say what I think If I wanted to say something was useless for SD I wouldnt have any problem saying so, or arguing with the people who disagreed, but that isnt what I said...a shoe, a belt, a scarf, a magazine, a small dog on a leash (swung as an impact weapon), all those are better than being empty handed against a knife...;

LMAO.... "Fluffy" the flail... Geeze buddy. You trying to piss of the ASPCA now?

At its most basic level, humane education is about learning to care for the animals in our homes and communities. It is about fostering kindness, respect and empathy for both human and nonhuman animals, and looking after the environment and its diverse habitats. Unlike science and other academic disciplines, humane education has a philosophical component that strives to establish a sense of responsibility and make the world a better, more humane place.

http://www.aspca.org/site/PageServer?pagename=edu_home

[BoarSpear]

LMAO.... "Fluffy" the flail... Geeze buddy. You trying to piss of the ASPCA now?

At its most basic level, humane education is about learning to care for the animals in our homes and communities. It is about fostering kindness, respect and empathy for both human and nonhuman animals, and looking after the environment and its diverse habitats. Unlike science and other academic disciplines, humane education has a philosophical component that strives to establish a sense of responsibility and make the world a better, more humane place.

http://www.aspca.org/site/PageServer?pagename=edu_home

Yeah the dog is like the empty handed thingy again the weakest place to play Sd from...of course a cat on leash would be better....

[stabbychick]

Hehehehe.... we have a neighbor 'round here who walks her cat on a leash.

......Toss this cat at him! He already looks thoroughly amused!

[Tant01]

Yeah the dog is like the empty handed thingy again the weakest place to play Sd from...of course a cat on leash would be better....

I almost said that.... Sick minds think alike.

[IPON]

No you chose to interpet it that I said it was useless or unrealistic. I said it was the weakest point to defend from, do you disagree? Isnt it always better from the defenders point of view to be armed in a conflict?

I stated I may have misunderstood your point and I stated I agree it is better to have a weapon than not. Again, I didn't understand the context of that last sentence that's here my question was, but I think I understand your point now.

[IPON]

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=288930
Check out posts #11 and 12.

I checked with an ex-NYPD LEO a couple of years back, and it fits with what I heard back then as well:
1)folders only-no fixed, switchblades, etc.
2)has to be "difficult" enough to open not to be a "gravity knife"
3)has to be a "utility" knife(so no karambits, or other exotic blade types)-I was told the KEY here is that then it can be said it's not a knife intended solely for use as a weapon.

Granted, I completely understand if you're less than willing to go on the word of what somebody says on the Internet, so I'd also recommend you stop in at your local precint to see what they have to say if you'd like to get more reliable info.
My story was I go climbing and that I carry it for that purpose(sorta true).

And I didn't mean the backpack thing in that sense...I mean briefcase, construction belt...whatever your day job might require. Hell...I still carry my old tattered backpack...too cheap to shell out the cash for a messenger bag like everybody else carries. Point is...they're only doing random searches of bags/luggage in the subways, and even then it seems to be a matter of do you fit the "profile".

Again, we are on the same page. What I posted was in regards to a weapon not a swiss army knife. There are many states that will allow concealed weapons in public. my point is NYS and expecially NYC is not one of those states check the forum one of the posters states the same infomation. I appreciate the links, but as I stated my information comes from NYC's finest and, more importantly, the state law as we have both provided. As one of the poster of the knife forum stated nothing is illegal unless you are caught, which I agree. J walking is illegal also, but it is also NY culture. Again we are saying the same thing but you are missing the point I was trying to make to Boar spear

[BoarSpear]

Again, we are on the same page. What I posted was in regards to a weapon not a swiss army knife. There are many states that will allow concealed weapons in public. my point is NYS and expecially NYC is not one of those states check the forum one of the posters states the same infomation. I appreciate the links, but as I stated my information comes from NYC's finest and, more importantly, the state law as we have both provided. As one of the poster of the knife forum stated nothing is illegal unless you are caught, which I agree. J walking is illegal also, but it is also NY culture. Again we are saying the same thing but you are missing the point I was trying to make to Boar spear

If you find yourself in an area that disallows weapons or knives in particular then the motion base that the knife teaches can be applied to any number of everyday and some not so ordinary objects. some companies that specialize in tools for professionals make Ink pens and flashlights that are extremly effective weapons like this flashlight....admittedly this ones an extreme example.

[Uke]

Most of the opposition to this logic comes from those who come from training in sport arenas. They feel devalued by the school of thought that says their efforts won't be effective in life or death situations unless conditions are ideal. While the former is true, they should understand that it is less an effort to undermine their efforts and more a case of there being a place for everything and everything in its place.

It seems that the GG(ground grappling) community wants recognition as the best of everything, while the SD community views GG differently. While the SD community has been testing techniques on the streets and battlefields with real results and real casualties, GG wants the same credit for having cage fights with rules, no weapons and padding. While SD instructors have been refining and fine tuning not only techniques, but concepts as police, C.O.'s, security agents, bouncers and gang members, GG players have since adopted the term "crosstraining" from SD in an effort to seem like they were well rounded. The SD community had been crosstraining for decades, but the UFC wanted to pretend that they reinvented the wheel.

In the confines of a controlled environment, the GG's, now called MMA's wanted the world to believe that they had proven something by mass producing fighters that start off by thai boxing at lower levels than K-1 fighters, and then ground grapple at less proficiency than BJJ players. Ground and pound is the evolution of those who couldn't grapple at the higher level.

But all of this is still done in a sports arena. But if MMA fighters can't beat traditional martial artists at striking(K-1), and they can't beat traditional martial artists at ground grappling(Abu Dhabi), what chance do they have outside of the rules of their events? Both Muay Thai and BJJ clinch frequently, where a weapons master would kill them as that is his range of proficiency. Urban combatives is all about weapons. This is a maxim of SD. Nearly every one of my masters carried a pistol and an edged weapon. I'm always armed. Every competent SD I know stresses weapons. But even weapons don't make up for unawareness, and you cannot be aware on the ground. Especially on your back. This is another maxim of SD. You may be able to defeat your opponent with a weapon while grappling on the ground, but you won't see his friends coming, and you won't be mobile enough to retreat, attack or defend against their weapons, whether they be steel toe boots, bats or knives.

So, the next time a GG/MMA's tells you that laying on your back is OK in a street fight, look at him like he's crazy. Because he is.