advantage over grapplers

[jubaji]

dance monkey, dance!

jubaji and Sagacious Lu: If either of you had bothered to refute anything that I wrote with a show of any amount of competence beyond demonstrating your ability to quote me, then you might be more than fleas that ride Mike's jock in this debate. .

LOL

What you seem to think is some great debate is just you repeating yourself over and over and trying to convince yourself that you know shit from shinola!

[jubaji]

In the examples I gave, both Severn and Shamrock stalled their matches against Royce Gracie for just about the entire match. What wasn't factored in there was the fact that if Royce truly wished to forgo the guard and return to his feet, I'm sure he could have. .

More useless empty speculation. Thanks for that.

[grappler-jordan]

In the examples I gave, both Severn and Shamrock stalled their matches against Royce Gracie for just about the entire match. What wasn't factored in there was the fact that if Royce truly wished to forgo the guard and return to his feet, I'm sure he could have. .

More useless empty speculation. Thanks for that.

Jubaji, I think Uke addresses an important point with that specualtion in that alot of grapplers become entirely too comfortable on the ground, more specifically in the guard situation due to the sporting nature of BJJ as it is taught today.

Could Royce have created space and stood up to forego the stalling posture and approach of his opponents? More likely then not. Did he? No. Why is that? Would he have been in danger of being knocked out on his feet? Yes, in reality any of us our in danger of knock out when you step in the ring. But his ability to control his opponents completely in his guard let him to feel more comfortable then on his feet. In reality in his guard there was VERY little threat to him with his skillset and he knew that.

I actually thought about this for quite some time before responding. I am a proponent and student of BJJ, I train Gi and No-Gi and I thoroughly enjoy it. What I failed to realize until I stopped to think about it is, that because I have neglected some of the self-defense aspects of my training. I have become more comfortable controlling my opponent on the ground then on my feet. This is where I believe the error lies.

As a BJJ practitioner I spend hours on the ground practicing technique and strategy, establishing a comfort level with generally uncomfortable and even dangerous positions. How will this affect my self-defense strategy on the street? Will I find myself going for the arm-bar when I should create space and stand up, or sweep and control from knee-in-stomach?

Is it important to train ground grappling? Yes, just as it is to prepare to defend yourself against an armed opponent. If you are attacked by an experienced grappler and you don't know what's going on, he's going to give you the beating of a lifetime. Ground grappling is a key aspect in becoming a well rounded fighter, and I think that more then just escapes and reversals can apply. However, at the same time ensure you are training with the correct mindset. It is dangerous to allow yourself to become so enrapped in submission wrestling that you forget that there might be a way out of the situation instead of looking to submit the guy.

I know most of the RBSD/UC guys in this discussion would agree with this and have not argued this point, just something for all the sport BJJ guys to consider.

[jubaji]

Could Royce have created space and stood up to forego the stalling posture and approach of his opponents? More likely then not. Did he? No. Why is that?

This is the 'speculation' I was referring to. "Could" he have done this or that? It's empty because it didn't happen. Assuming that he could have gotten to his feet against Severn for example is highly questionable. He was where he was because that was his only option. Attempting to get to his feet probably would have put him in deep **** against Severn, I suppose. But all this is just more speculation, which proves nothing. This particular point was not even really central to the argument he was losing to Mike. pUke was attempting to build an argument on thin air (like he always does because that's about all he's got) and I merely pointed that out. I'm not a BJJer, so I've got no dog in this race, but pUke's constant mindless repetition of the same ignorant categorical dogma over and over is just really tiresome.

[jubaji]

Mike, you're wasting your time. You can word your position as carefully as possible and little pUke-boy will still have to squeal. He's tied his little ego to his narrow position now and, in boar-like fashion, cannot let go.

I'm starting to think that he is the bastard child of boar and KOTF (prior to the operation).

[medic06]

Excellent post Mike

[grappler-jordan]

Use No Way as Way, No Limitation as Limitation.

It really all does come back to that doesn't it? The foundational idea behind what I consider true martial artists.

"Take what works for you, discard what does not, remain open minded even to those who oppose your views because even if you can't learn from their success maybe you can learn from their failures." -Grandmaster Gary M. Geddie

[Uke]

Not for nothing, but its already been established that jubaji is just here to vent and be an idiot. Its clear that he possesses no depth or knowledge about martial arts or fighting itself as he has never once authored anything to demonstrate otherwise. No one, not even myself has described jubaji better than this:

Jubaji, you are tooooooo much. Never in a million years will you ever admit you are wrong.

I give up. Not once have you addressed any of my (or any one else's posts) posts with any kind of thought out debate. You just keep singing the same song. I took the time to give my reasons for what I believe. I knew I would never convince the likes of someone like you. I guess I just like to type. Hopefully, most people interested in politics will read these posts, and either agree with me, or give a logical response as to why i am wrong (I am willing to listen) but I know plenty of people just like you. You believe what you want.

Just a personal obvservation, but I can't remember any of your posts in any thread that were ever nice, to anyone. Everything coming out of your cake-hole is 100% unpleasant, sarcastic, narrow minded and ridiculous. You have never said anything supportive, or even intructive. It's just pure meaness coming from you. Always evading a true argument. I can only imagine the ugly smirk on your non-martial art knowing face right now. I doubt you even do martial arts. You do a lot of talking, sure. A lot of typing. You make no contribution to this forum whatsoever. The amount of posts you have done since your spawning on this forum makes me think you have no life whatsoever. And not one of those posts show you to be a stand-up guy. You are an armchair coward. A prison guard type person. A bully. A guy like you would never last as a true warrior in the military. The self righteous motor pool sergeant, sure, but never a real warrior or soldier. Plenty of soldier of fortune back issues laying around your garage, plenty of Mack Bolan books around, but no real experience.

I could go on guessing what kind of a person you really are, but it's really pointless at this point.

I kind of feel sorry for you.

Have a nice life.

I would be interested in other people's opinion on this: Does anyone know this Jubaji and actually like him? Has anyone ever seen him train, or does anyone know if he really does martial arts?

This is 100% a complete an accurate description of juabji and the nonsense he pulls here. The saddest part is that he comes to a martial arts forum to discuss anything but martial arts. What's worse is that he posts on threads that he clearly has no knowledge about. If he wanted to stay in the wrestling/sport forum it wouldn't be as bad. But he continuously wanders to wherever he is most likely to get some attention, regardless if his comments are devoid of any subject matter.

The fact that this has been allowed to continue is telling. I have not conceded any one fact from my posts, and have urged people to forget about Mike's and my own debate and look at the facts and points that were laid out on pages 4 & 5 on the topic "StreetFighting effectiveness". The difference between what I have stated and what other have stated is that I am quoting fact, while others continue to argue using exclusively their opinions.

Mike's ONLY point(read through his posts) was that there might be some value in learning ground grappling passed the point of reversing chokes and submissions and escaping the ground and mount positions. I agree that his statement may be true as it relates to sports, but passed that the only relevance it would carry in SD is in a situation where you can be sure that there will be no weapons and no other attackers. Is there such a place? Even if you watch BJJ self defense, the majority of it is basic judo and jujitsu throws, strikes and locks. They rarely go to newaza when demonstrating self defense, and if they do, they usually reverse the position to get up and take control of the man. Even to the biggest ground grappling advocates in the world staying on your feet or getting back to them in self defense situations is simply common sense.

The only reason that a debate like this could go on as long as it has is because there aren't enough experienced practitioners here to weigh in. This isn't the first site that this debate has been discussed on. But this is the first site where people wanted to be right so badly that they misconstrued the debating points and blurred the parameters of the discussion.

I've said this before this became a war of wills and arguing. This entire debate was concluded on "Streetfighting effectiveness" on pages 4 and 5.

Lastly, I still don't think Mike gets what I've been saying. I've never said to say "no" to learning anything. But if you are to learn newaza for real altercation that include weapons and other attackers, then learning it to reverse submissions and chokes and to get back to your feet is the smartest way to gear your focus in that area. Now, that isn't to say that you should stop learning newaza once you've learned how to escape successfully most of the time. I'm saying that if you focus on newaza passed a certain point, you'll began to rely on it in situations where you should be using your other skills. Newaza has always been a comfort zone to those who ground grapple. A BJJ man seeks to bring you there to that range.

My point is that if you train to fight in newaza range for too long and too often, that WILL become your comfort zone and you will begin to notice that you are bringing your opponents down to the ground with you more frequently, even in situations where you shouldn't. With the understanding that you should keep your fights on your feet for a variety of reasons, all of your training should be geared toward that end. Either keeping it there or getting back to it.

Let's address Mike's example of "What if the guy's so good that you can't just get up?" Well, if I'm ground grappling against Rickson Gracie I'm not going to have that great of chance anyway. My chances are exponentially better if I use my energy to get back to my feet. I can't speak about the abilities of everyone here, but I doubt that any of you would have a much better shot than I would if it were Rickson you were facing. Mike's point was to learn ground grappling better to just have a prayer. My point was to learn how to get back to your feet so that you have a better than average chance of winning. Against elite ground grapplers you'd be a fool to fight fire with fire. The same can be said when facing elite CQC fighters. However, when on your feet, you still have a chance to run or even get in a lucky shot.

I will always advocate using newaza knowledge to get yourself back to where most fights are decided: in CQ range on your feet.

This isn't an argument or a debate. I just wanted to civily address the point that Mike was pushing.

[jubaji]

another thing you don't do well

Its clear that he possesses no depth or knowledge about martial arts or fighting itself as he has never once authored anything to demonstrate otherwise. No one, not even myself has described jubaji better than this:

This is 100% a complete an accurate description of juabji and the nonsense he pulls here. The saddest part is .

The saddest part is that you can't even bitch and moan effectively for yourself. You are now borrowing whining and guessing from other dopes........

[jubaji]

The only reason that a debate like this could go on as long as it has is because there aren't enough experienced practitioners here to weigh in.

LOL

Little pUKe-boy's version of: "'cause I said so! Waaaaa"

[bigred389]

No...I can actually recall a politely worded, constructive post from jubaji...and in recent memory too! :P

[jubaji]

are you sure?

No...I can actually recall a politely worded, constructive post from jubaji...and in recent memory too! :P

See? I'm a regular sweetheart!

[traveller]

I love this thread.
Every one seems to agree and disagree and keeps splitting hairs.
Not to mention that it started in a different thread and is probably in 10 others (I'm too lazy to look right now though). Oh and most of it is not even actually about the thread title, but about streetfighting. So that is what I will address.
For the record, this "inexperienced" practicioner would rather not fight a streetfighter on the ground, but in probably 90 percent of the fights I have seen or been involved in the fight hits the ground for one reason or another.
Also for the record, I would rather not fight any of the true streetfighters I have seen or face those again which I have had the displeasure of dealing with. There is no fair fighting in the world of the true streetfighter.
They bite, claw, gouge eyes, whatever it takes to hurt you. They play by different rules than you, live by a different "code," and have far less regard for life than you do in most cases.
Real streetfighters are dangerous.
Grappling on the ground is practical for escaping as Mike and Uke have pointed out, and sometimes for saving your life. The large scar over my right eye is proof enough for me. Since I was blinded in one eye by flesh and the other by blood, you bet your ass I held on and kept the guy on the ground. Not because it was my first choice, but because it was my only choice. Fortunately, by the time anybody else came around they were not his buddies.
That's the end of my address to the thread that started in Streetfighting Effectiveness or whatever it was.

For the record. I think jubaji has made some valid points and he has treated me with respect throughout the site.

Uke, thanks for filling me in on the other thread, it clarified the path that the this thread took.

[traveller]

That probably sounded like the rantings of a crazy man, and wasn't written in the most cohesive fashion.
Sorry, I got a bit distracted

[jubaji]

For the record. I think jubaji has made some valid points and he has treated me with respect throughout the site.

And you have thus far merited no less, sir!