Nice safe world we live in...

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

Please don't mix warriors with assholes who were given the authority by the state to beat people. There is a huge difference between a warrior and a jerk with a badge.

While there may be actual warriors in the police force, what that video showed was a few frustrated pricks who are tired of being picked on since highschool.

i think we have idealized visions of what makes a "good" warrior. the term is imbued with thoughts of honor, fairness and mercy towards fallen enemies. this is only what a warrior should be. a warrior caste is not made up of ideal warriors. the samurai have been the subject of more romanticising depictions that any other warrior class except for maybe the knights of the middle ages, but in both classes there were thugs and bullies. sometimes a warrior is no better than a jerk with a badge (or sword).

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

That's something that not many people are going to want to touch. Excellent point, but believe me there are many people out there that believe that anyone who is the recipient of that type of violence must have done something wrong to deserve it.

yes, there are many people who believe that way, and i think it has to do with what KOTF and i are discussing. we readily hand over too much trust to police because, well, they're the police!

[BoarSpear]

i think we have idealized visions of what makes a "good" warrior. the term is imbued with thoughts of honor, fairness and mercy towards fallen enemies. this is only what a warrior should be. a warrior caste is not made up of ideal warriors. the samurai have been the subject of more romanticising depictions that any other warrior class except for maybe the knights of the middle ages, but in both classes there were thugs and bullies. sometimes a warrior is no better than a jerk with a badge (or sword).

Warriors make war....police are peace keepers...warriors kill it's their job...peacekeepers save lives and keep the peace,thats their job. Too many peacekeepers have warrior fantasies this makes them bad police because they were never a warrior in the first place nor did their job description intend for them to be a warrior...If they wanna be warriors there is a need for boots on the ground in several war zones.

[BoarSpear]

i think we have idealized visions of what makes a "good" warrior. the term is imbued with thoughts of honor, fairness and mercy towards fallen enemies. this is only what a warrior should be. a warrior caste is not made up of ideal warriors. the samurai have been the subject of more romanticising depictions that any other warrior class except for maybe the knights of the middle ages, but in both classes there were thugs and bullies. sometimes a warrior is no better than a jerk with a badge (or sword).

Chivalry and honor decide are the factors that decide whether your warriors are seen as saviors or oppressors and bandits...War has never been nice....but honor always has a place if you are truly a warrior and not a mercenary or a bandit. Believe it or not, honor is a weapon.

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

Chivalry and honor decide are the factors that decide whether your warriors are seen as saviors or oppressors and bandits...War has never been nice....but honor always has a place if you are truly a warrior and not a mercenary or a bandit. Believe it or not, honor is a weapon.

i absolutely agree. but it doesn't take honor to be a warrior, only a good one.

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

Warriors make war....police are peace keepers...warriors kill it's their job...peacekeepers save lives and keep the peace,thats their job. Too many peacekeepers have warrior fantasies this makes them bad police because they were never a warrior in the first place nor did their job description intend for them to be a warrior...If they wanna be warriors there is a need for boots on the ground in several war zones.

again, there's a big disparity between how things ought to be and how things are. i'll admit, i choose the term warrior caste for a bit of dramatic effect. but the reality is that the police have authority that from my philosophical standpoint i cannot condone any one man holding over another.

[BoarSpear]

i absolutely agree. but it doesn't take honor to be a warrior, only a good one.

Well that all depends on your view of the difference in a warrior and a bandit.
Good warriors make their generals jobs easier...assholes who rape and pillage turn hearts and minds against the generals leadership...that is not a warrior its a thief who steals the honor of the leader and the principles he claims to hold dear, and he is helping the enemy.

[Tom Yum]

Well that all depends on your view of the difference in a warrior and a bandit.

Good warriors make their generals jobs easier...assholes who rape and pillage turn hearts and minds against the generals leadership...that is not a warrior its a thief who steals the honor of the leader and the principles he claims to hold dear, and he is helping the enemy.

Boar, I am intrigued by the definition of a warrior. What is it?

I don't doubt that the man in the Ranger vid was a warrior. He went through the training; he was given instructions to rape and pillage...perhaps he did and was just carrying out orders.

If he did not follow his orders, he could have been court martialed, right or other punishment. How does a warrior face a tough decision like this one?

I think most of us would follow our orders and try to forget what just took place.

[BoarSpear]

Boar, I am intrigued by the definition of a warrior. What is it?

I don't doubt that the man in the Ranger vid was a warrior. He was given instructions to rape and pillage...perhaps he did and was just carrying out orders.

If he did not follow his orders, he could have been court martialed, right.

How does a warrior face a tough decision like this one?

If it had been me, I would have followed my commanding officers orders and never, never spoken of what had happened...not even to my spouse.

Warriorship isn't something that can be grasped or explained easily, but certain things aren't the actions of a warrior and those actions remove you from the category of warrior and bump you to Mercenary or bandit. The number one thing you MUST have to be a warrior is integrity, without that you're a liability at best. You MUST be honest and trustworthy no matter the personal consequences to you...otherwise you are a liability...if you put yourself before your missions completion you aren't doing your job. If fear of losing promotions or your life for telling the truth about ANY action taken in the name of your leader prevents you from being honest you are a liability to the leader and the organization. If lying to protect the truth is expected then you have an obligation to expose this also...you NEVER have to accept an illegal order, if you do so out of fear you are not a warrior...if you break command rules and endanger the command for personal survival you are not a warrior, you're out for yourself and thats a mercenary...you ain't there for the cause or you would be willing to do whatever it took to support the cause, those that break the rules insult everyone else who died while playing by them, your either the good guys or you aren't...your actions define you...live by the sword, die by the sword. It's the very essence of warriorship to recognize you're there to protect the leader and you must not turn the people's hearts and minds against the leadership or it will be the downfall of the leader.

[BoarSpear]

I don't doubt that the man in the Ranger vid was a warrior. He went through the training; he was given instructions to rape and pillage...perhaps he did and was just carrying out orders.

If he received those orders they were illegal and he knew it.

If he did not follow his orders, he could have been court martialed, right or other punishment. How does a warrior face a tough decision like this one?

I'd LOVE to see that court Martial...The United States of America Vs Private dudley do right. "Private Do Right refused to rape three small children and shoot them in the head afterwards while their parents watched."

Yeah, I don't think so....so now what, are they gonna raise their weapon to me in the field to enforce this illegal order? I'm armed as well, thats the point, if the troops roll over and LET the command force them to act like scum...they ain't warriors, they're scum like the liar who started it all. Think about it dude, if you were in a room and people were raping and shooting children to question the parents wouldn't you raise your weapon to stop it? ....Would you shoot the guy from your command who told you to shoot kids or the guy from your command who refused to shoot kids?

I think most of us would follow our orders and try to forget what just took place.

Then you aint a patriot or a warrior, you're a child molesting, raping scumbag who destroyed the reputation of a great nation and a noble profession.

[Uke]

yes, there are many people who believe that way, and i think it has to do with what KOTF and i are discussing. we readily hand over too much trust to police because, well, they're the police!

What it boils down to is that there isn't an effective syetm of checks and balances put in place when it comes to the police. Who polices the police? Internal Affairs? They do little in the scope of things.

There are tons more violent beatings dealt out everyday that you won't find on YouTube. They get away with more shit that they ever are convicted for.

This conversation is a moot one because the minute we begin to discuss how to deal with police violence we've crossed an imaginary line.

[Tom Yum]

I'd LOVE to see that court Martial...The United States of America Vs Private dudley do right. "Private Do Right refused to rape three small children and shoot them in the head afterwards while their parents watched."

Then you aint a patriot or a warrior, you're a child molesting, raping scumbag who destroyed the reputation of a great nation and a noble profession.

Thanks for telling the truth, Boar. Even if it means beating me in the face with it and kicking my ass over it.

Lesson learned.

The path that you are talking about is a rare thing today. Every day in the boardrooms across America and even in the White house, people eat or sell out people to keep their career; their livelihood.

Everyone from the garbage man up to the Senate has experienced this decision at some point in their career and acted upon it...I see why you say that being the soldier is the noble profession but I can see how people could make life "harder" for you for not following orders that are illegal...

To gang stab and then eat your colleague is a normal practice in some places, not all the time - a good thing, but it can and does happen. Guess in some cases you just have to take it square on the chin and in the balls if you wan't to keep your honor...

[Tom Yum]

I'd LOVE to see that court Martial...The United States of America Vs Private dudley do right. "Private Do Right refused to rape three small children and shoot them in the head afterwards while their parents watched."

Yeah, I don't think so....so now what, are they gonna raise their weapon to me in the field to enforce this illegal order? I'm armed as well, thats the point, if the troops roll over and LET the command force them to act like scum...they ain't warriors, they're scum like the liar who started it all.

Think about it dude, if you were in a room and people were raping and shooting children to question the parents wouldn't you raise your weapon to stop it? ....Would you shoot the guy from your command who told you to shoot kids or the guy from your command who refused to shoot kids?

You're right there, Boar. And I agree, but damn its hard to disagree with management.

Have you read One Bullet Away by Nathaniel Fick. Great book. Very pro-military, but there's a good hint of realism in it as well.

Fick indirectly mentions that he was given instructions that may or may not have held up in the fog of war, causing him to have to make critical decisions.

He's not specific, but he touches the topic.

I'd rather here what's right from an old-timer whose been through and is hella more experienced.

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

Warriorship isn't something that can be grasped or explained easily, but certain things aren't the actions of a warrior and those actions remove you from the category of warrior and bump you to Mercenary or bandit.

Mercenary, yea, that's a better term for the police.

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

What it boils down to is that there isn't an effective syetm of checks and balances put in place when it comes to the police. Who polices the police? Internal Affairs? They do little in the scope of things.

There are tons more violent beatings dealt out everyday that you won't find on YouTube. They get away with more shit that they ever are convicted for.

This conversation is a moot one because the minute we begin to discuss how to deal with police violence we've crossed an imaginary line.

i don't follow that last statement, what's the imaginary line?