Training for the Street

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

I'm sure he did! There is value in sport competition. There is high level of athleticism and skill involved in sport competitions. Once of my cousin's students is the world karate champion and has been ranked #1 for years, but he can fight too.

Maybe I'm missing your point. Be so kind as to help me understand what it is that you're trying to convey.

Sigh, i'm not sure i know my point myself anymore I think this Oyama stuff was all a clever ploy to throw me off my game

While i try to collect myself, riddle me this. How does a RBSD/Urban Combatives guy train to avoid falling back into bad brawling when the heat is suddenly turned up?

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

And whoever left me my latest rep (I'm thinkin' Hardman)
1) thanks for the laugh and
2) the answer is very much yes, it would make a top 5 list of my favorite things

[Uke]

Yes, there are plenty of changes since the beginning that were detrimental as far as realism goes, mostly due in one way or another to making it more "palatable" in general. I have to say that the weight class thing could be argued either way though, putting two guys in a ring with all other things being relatively equal, that highlights the style's attributes. If a 300 pound bjjer fell on top of a boxer and smothered him, that wouldn't really discredit boxing as a preparation for confrontation.

So my disagreement would be that some possitive things have come out of it too ! As the Gracies are so fond of chanting, it proved that your game is not complete if you have not prepared in one way or another for a grappler. As a result fighters have become more aware of threats from outside their own styles. I find that particularly important because i see it as one of the major pitfalls of the martial arts that typically you only get to fight people who have been trained to react the same way you have.

Fighters cross-train and have a much bigger box of tools at their disposal during a fight.

Yeesh, i dunno, the differences seem so significant i guess i wasn't prepared to answer this question In general the fighters are smarter, more well rounded, and more dynamic, beyond that i'll have to get back to you.

You've got to be kidding, right? Either there is some humor that I'm missing or maybe you're not understanding my point, which would surprise me. If you must be relatively the same size as the man you're fighting to be effective, then what you're learning is predicated upon fixed and fabricated environments. Period. If a 120lbs man couldn't defeat a 220lbs man using "system A" no matter how long and hard he trained, then "system A" isn't meant for combat. Its meant for competition where the 120lbs man can be successful fighting other 120lbs men.

Creating weight classes in events that are supposed to simulate reality sends the message that you'll always be fighting someone your size in the street. Let's see how some of the best little guys do against some of the best big guys.

Creating a breed of professional athletes also lends a bullshit factor when you speak in terms of how effective a system would be for street defense. They're professional athletes!!! If you see a pro Muay Thai fighter fight a amateur karate studio student, it would be a lot like Pro's vs Joes. These men don't have to know a whole lot to beat the average man because their conditioning is so superior to the average man that they could simply wrestle an unarmed guy for 3 minutes with no submissions and the average man guy would probably pass out from sheer exhaustion.

So when you see a pro fighter using kickboxing or BJJ, you're seeing it at its highest level. You're not going to look like what you're watching. Your students aren't going to perform like what they've been led to believe you're teaching. If average people go out and street fight with MT or BJJ they'll look a lot more like Roland Payne and Christophe Leninger than Ernesto Hoost and Rigan Machado.

Yes, learning BJJ does plug the hole in your game if you know no newaza. I agree. It was an overlooked aspect of street fighting mostly due to the good sense of those who aren't afraid to wrestle but are afraid to be stabbed. A hole nonetheless though.

As far a crosstraining goes, I'll PM you.

Great talking to you, Judo Jibboo.

[DickHardman]

bottom line is, if you arent sparring against fully resisting opponents on a consistent basis and if you arent getting you ass kicked by someone better than you, then you arent really getting any better.

for me, all that combative stuff is just supplemental. you can stand there and pretend to do devastating techniques to eachother like ashida kim if you want, but when it comes time to fight there is now way you are going to be able to use any of those techniques on a guy trying to stomp your face in.

[Uke]

While i try to collect myself, riddle me this. How does a RBSD/Urban Combatives guy train to avoid falling back into bad brawling when the heat is suddenly turned up?

Well, most people would say that he would simply stab the guy

But the truth is that anyone can fall back into bad brawling if they don't believe in their training. And a student can't and will not believe in his training if he hasn't tested it under extreme pressure.

What you ask is like asking a police officer or army sniper "How do you continue to use tactics even when the heat is turned up?"

Its all in the training. The training has to be alive. It has to have pressure. It has to first teach you the worst case scenarios, and then put you in those scenarios with people who will attack you with real force. You have to know what it is to be hit hard. You have to know what it is to be choked out. You have to know the fear of being accosted by more than one person. You have to know what it is to feel an adrenaline dump. You have to know what its like to throw your best shot and it pay no dividends. But most of all you must learn how not to quit. You have to drill all these scenarios over and over for years until you become desensitized to the fear that these situations bring and become more focused on following through with a course of action.

Its ALL in the training. That's why there are no brawling tactics in RBSD. At least not in mine. Brawling uses up most if not all of your energy in less than 60 seconds. There are no macho boxing exchanges. Its all about the dirty fighter mindset, not the fair fight mindset.

When you think like a fair fighter, you're actually giving you're opponent a chance. Exchanging. Respecting distance and power. When you begin to think like a dirty fighter, you look for every opportunity to tear the life out of the man in front of you. You respect no rules. No distance. No unspoken agreements. You dig deep and get ready to do your worst. You use any and everything to inflict as much damage as you can. And what makes it much worse for the other guy is that you've been training under pressure to do your worst.

When you think like a dirty fighter, judo jibboo, you won't allow yourself to brawl because you'd be giving too much to your opponent. Even if he blindsided you, as long as he doesn't knock you out, you control your emotions and try your best to keep the distance and get inside where you've trained to use your tools.

[Uke]

that wasnt him trying to be civil, it was him desperately trying to start some actual threads in fear of getting banned after people started to flat out beg him to stop trolling our threads and forums. sadly though, after 6000+ posts of one liners and insults, two or three legit posts really isnt going to change people's perspective of you.

he is still in the same category as matt blake and nutter, even if he himself really wasnt pretending to be those people on a different screen name.

Turns out that you were right. Jubaji must have made 10 different topics about arbitrary bullshit in the span of 60 minutes. I guess he must have made his "I'll be a good boy" quota and now he's back to his old bipolar ways.

I've never seen a man stalk and harass other grown men on the internet before. You think jubaji is listed on the Megans Law website? I wouldn't be surprised as this guy is strange. By reading what he writes here I wouldn't be surprised if jubaji had to take the walk of shame and ring every one's doorbell on his block to let them know that he's moved into town.

[jubaji]

If you must be relatively the same size as the man you're fighting to be effective, then what you're learning is predicated upon fixed and fabricated environments.


These men don't have to know a whole lot to beat the average man because their conditioning is so superior to the average man .

Yep, more repetition and stupidity. That's pUke all right.

[jubaji]

Well, most people would say that he would simply stab the guy .

How many people have you stabbed, pUke?

[jubaji]

Its all about the dirty fighter mindset, not the fair fight mindset. When you begin to think like a dirty fighter, you look for every opportunity to tear the life out of the man in front of you. You respect no rules. No distance. No unspoken agreements. You dig deep and get ready to do your worst. You use any and everything to inflict as much damage as you can. And what makes it much worse for the other guy is that you've been training under pressure to do your worst.

So dramatic! Once again pUke shows that "its all about" theoretical training with rubber knives and bad acting role play exercises.

[Sagacious Lu]

In ANY match where there is a BJJ player, as soon as he gets with something cleanly he falls back into the guard position. Whether he pulls his opponent into his guard or just lays there hoping for his opponent to come into his guard doesn't matter. The point was that a BJJ fighter is going to get into the position he is most comfortable in once he's overwhelmed or tagged cleanly.

You've just demonstrated that you're willing to shoot your mouth off about "pulling guard" even though you have no idea what the term means. Not only that, you're so caught up sniffing your own poo that you don't realize that you don't know what you're talking about. There's no point in trying to have a meaningful conversation with you because you're too ignorant and too arrogant for it to be worth the time.

Second, you're a 19 year old kid who has about a year and a half training in BJJ and even less than that in Krav Maga, so don't come here talking like you know shit because you don't. And with you only practicing the rudimentary shit that you do, you are DEFINITELY in no position to ever call me or anyone for that matter uneducated.

That's a year and half more valid training than you have you undeducated jack ass

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

You've got to be kidding, right? Either there is some humor that I'm missing or maybe you're not understanding my point, which would surprise me. If you must be relatively the same size as the man you're fighting to be effective, then what you're learning is predicated upon fixed and fabricated environments. Period. If a 120lbs man couldn't defeat a 220lbs man using "system A" no matter how long and hard he trained, then "system A" isn't meant for combat. Its meant for competition where the 120lbs man can be successful fighting other 120lbs men.
Creating weight classes in events that are supposed to simulate reality sends the message that you'll always be fighting someone your size in the street. Let's see how some of the best little guys do against some of the best big guys.

Let me be clear in case I've said some conflicting things that are causing confusion: I don't consider high level sport competition to be the pinnacle of martial arts training. Sport competition is a vehicle, just like the drills and scenarios you're talking about training in another post. I happen to consider it a very important vehicle, but nothing more. So, sport competition will not reflect 100% the reality of the street, and should not be expected to.

Jigoro Kano had this same idealistic approach to weight class in early Judo competition, there was none! And why not, right? Isn't judo all about being able to beat bigger, stronger guys? Yes. But how do you accomplish that? You've gotta know some tricks that they don't! Throwing a 300 pound thug or even a 300 pound martial artist from another school is very different from throwing a 300 pound fellow judoka.

It's the same in MMA. They all know and train to defend each other's tricks. It's why you hear "MMA" being spoken of like it's a style itself now. I don't know much about the history of the early UFC, but i would place my bet that the introduction of weight classes occured as a result of the shift away from style vs. style format. I know it's a hard thing for some martial artists to hear, but if all other things are equal then the guy with a 50 pound weight advantage is going to win. To beat bigger, stronger people you have to have some tricks up your sleeve, which is pretty much percluded by the current format of MMA.

Creating a breed of professional athletes also lends a bullshit factor when you speak in terms of how effective a system would be for street defense. They're professional athletes!!! If you see a pro Muay Thai fighter fight a amateur karate studio student, it would be a lot like Pro's vs Joes. These men don't have to know a whole lot to beat the average man because their conditioning is so superior to the average man that they could simply wrestle an unarmed guy for 3 minutes with no submissions and the average man guy would probably pass out from sheer exhaustion.
So when you see a pro fighter using kickboxing or BJJ, you're seeing it at its highest level. You're not going to look like what you're watching. Your students aren't going to perform like what they've been led to believe you're teaching. If average people go out and street fight with MT or BJJ they'll look a lot more like Roland Payne and Christophe Leninger than Ernesto Hoost and Rigan Machado.

Yeah, but this isn't a pro Muay Thai fighter against an amatuer karate studio student, it's pros against pros. As long as they're trained to the same level it still should be an accurate representation. It's kinda like if you've ever watched AAA ball. It's about as fun to watch as pro ball usually, cause they're all on the same level. On average, the pro Thai boxer vs. pro karateka is going to look similar to the amatuer Thai boxer vs. amatuer karateka.

[Uke]

You've just demonstrated that you're willing to shoot your mouth off about "pulling guard" even though you have no idea what the term means. Not only that, you're so caught up sniffing your own poo that you don't realize that you don't know what you're talking about. There's no point in trying to have a meaningful conversation with you because you're too ignorant and too arrogant for it to be worth the time.
That's a year and half more valid training than you have you undeducated jack ass

Are you still alive, Sagacious Lu? What rock did you crawl out from? You appear out of nowhere after zero contributions to beat your chest and stick your head further up jubaji's ass, and then you return to whatever dark hole you came from satisfied that you ran you mouth a little bit.

I can count on one hand the number of posts that you and jubaji have written that show any knowledge or insight to martial arts and still have 3 fingers left over. I can't honestly say that about SamuraiGuy. He's usually just a dumb little kid who needs to defend ideas that he feels that I'm attacking, but he at least contributes.

If you look at just 2% of the posts that I write, there's more education in those posts than in everything you and your little dick companion jubaji have written combined. SamuraiGuy can tell you that.

While Uke's thread was highly controversial, I didnt agree with everything in it, people yelled, flamed, I'm sure somewhere out there someone cried (omoplata?) that thread is gonna teach you alot more than 85% of the shit on this forum.

I dont agree with Uke on everything, I dont have to like him, doesnt mean I shouldnt respect his view, and try to learn something from him, because I'm sure I can.

And even without SamuraiGuy stating that, if you and pee wee had something of value to say you wouldn't always have to be disrespectful to mask the fact that you don't know shit. And you don't.

I've been here for 3 years and jubaji has been doing the same shit to various people. I can't take it personally because he's a fucking idiot wherever he goes and to whoever he speaks to. Sagacious Lu isn't much different. He's just not as witty as jubaji, and that's sad.

[jubaji]

Are you still alive, Sagacious Lu? What rock did you crawl out from? You appear out of nowhere after zero contributions to beat your chest, and then you return to whatever dark hole you came from satisfied that you ran you mouth a little bit.

You just love to tell everyone their "contributions" aren't up to your standards, which is hilarious.

[jubaji]

If you look at just 2% of the posts that I write, there's more education in those posts than in everything written combined.

Oh my, you are just wonderful.


What a fucking joke. You've only ever said one thing that you just keep repeating, in one form or another, over and over and over ad naseum.

[Uke]

Let me be clear in case I've said some conflicting things that are causing confusion: I don't consider high level sport competition to be the pinnacle of martial arts training. Sport competition is a vehicle, just like the drills and scenarios you're talking about training in another post. I happen to consider it a very important vehicle, but nothing more. So, sport competition will not reflect 100% the reality of the street, and should not be expected to.

Agreed. I think too much is being made of the street without actually discussing the differences. The truth is, the segregating factor between what separates street from high level sport competitions are the mindset and movements that address 3 things:

Weapons
Multiple attackers
and being constantly aware of your surroundings

Sports or more specifically sport combat take none of these three factors into consideration when building and molding a fighter. Period. They don't need to. They have fixed rules and environments that do away with the need to address those factors. So no one should expect sport to reflect even 51% reality. 50% is the physical, while the other 50% are the three mentioned factors on top of a survivors mindset vs a sport competitors mindset. They are not the same.

Jigoro Kano had this same idealistic approach to weight class in early Judo competition, there was none! And why not, right? Isn't judo all about being able to beat bigger, stronger guys? Yes. But how do you accomplish that? You've gotta know some tricks that they don't! Throwing a 300 pound thug or even a 300 pound martial artist from another school is very different from throwing a 300 pound fellow judoka.

It's the same in MMA. They all know and train to defend each other's tricks. It's why you hear "MMA" being spoken of like it's a style itself now. I don't know much about the history of the early UFC, but i would place my bet that the introduction of weight classes occured as a result of the shift away from style vs. style format. I know it's a hard thing for some martial artists to hear, but if all other things are equal then the guy with a 50 pound weight advantage is going to win. To beat bigger, stronger people you have to have some tricks up your sleeve, which is pretty much percluded by the current format of MMA.

Very seldom do you see a unique "trick" in NHB competition, Judo Jibboo. The fighters are becoming cookie cutter clones of each other and that's why the fights are as competitive as they are. They all thai box until the get in close enough to grapple. Then someone either gets rocked, or someone scores a takedown. That's the MMA mold that these events have created. There used to be more diversity in styles and background. Now most of the young guys are coming up from MMA gyms that teach them from jump street to fight in the MMA format. Its not that they found a set of techniques that "works", because other styles work also. They just invented a new ring style that makes the fights more competitive and pleasing to watch. That's seem to be what you were saying above. When you fight someone from your own school, its more competitive because you train the same. It will look more organized and skilled because its more of a chess match. But when you face other people who's skills and habits you are unfamiliar with, it looks sloppier and less of a chess match, and more of a melee to gain a superior position. And that's why its the unconventional NHB fighters that rule the events like Crocop, Fedor and Nogueira. They have base skills in other styles from which to draw from. And they've mastered those base skills. They didn't just crash course them like the cookie cutters. Jack of all trades/master of none.

Yeah, but this isn't a pro Muay Thai fighter against an amatuer karate studio student, it's pros against pros. As long as they're trained to the same level it still should be an accurate representation. It's kinda like if you've ever watched AAA ball. It's about as fun to watch as pro ball usually, cause they're all on the same level. On average, the pro Thai boxer vs. pro karateka is going to look similar to the amatuer Thai boxer vs. amatuer karateka.

It won't be an accurate representation. If I took two guys who have novice boxing skills, meaning a solid year of training and gave them gloves and put them in the ring, you would not get an accurate representation of what boxing offers. That's a fact. 9 times out of 10 both their footwork would be shitty, there would be little to no slipping. They would have an undeveloped sense of timing and distance. Their stances would be probably the only thing that they'd have half way decent at that point. The same would go for guys in pro shape at that point in training, except for the fact that they wouldn't fatigue half as fast, and its fatigue that leads to sloppiness. They'd be able to at least focus for longer periods of time to maintain good form and take directions because in pro level shape, your mind and body are BOTH stronger.

When people see combat sport arts performed at that level, they assume that if they take some lessons that they will be equally formidable as the men that they see on television. What they don't realize is that unless they're trained to the conditioning level of those men, their techniques won't be very effective at all. That's why the first UFC's made the switch from Joe's to Pro's. The fighting looked less sloppy using Pro's. The matches went on longer because the Pro fighters didn't exhaust as fast. They kept better form and technique because they weren't wheezing and panting. They became bout fighters, or men who fought for multiple rounds instead of who got incapacitated fastest.