Gunman Kills 21 on Virginia Tech campus

[SamuraiGuy]

I AM a woman, and I'd be more than happy to hide under the desks with other women if some men would stand up and take care of the threat. Sadly, the type of men who do this are becoming nonexistent. That's why women have to fulfill both roles in this day and age, which like I said I'm willing to step up and do that as well if necessary.

Question: Judging from your previous posts, your all for equal rights, women can do anything men can do, women are just as capable as men, etc...

Correct?


Now let me ask you this, for all your going on about taking out the threat etc... and what I've assumed to be your beliefs on feminist ideals, how can you say you would be happy to hide under the desk with other women if men were around to stop the attacker.

Hiding under the desk with women? First of all why the **** are the women the gender that gets to hide under the desk? They should be just as responsible for themselves and the safety of others as men are.

The amount of men willing to stand up and take a stand, maybe thats because feminism, etc.. Has made it this way, if you want it to be equal, equal pay, equal rights, equal equal equal, wheres the equality for men. Isnt their right to hide under the desk as equal as yours as a woman. Too bad we cant hide udner the desk and think "damn I wish there were more woman who would stand up and defend me in this day and age"

The next part about them becoming non-existent closely ties in with the political correctness things. As people become more limited in whats "right" to do, so do the chances of people actually doing what is right, instead of what is percieved as "right" in a given situation.

Thats why women have to fulfill both roles?

Awww muffin, poor you. You mean women have to look out for themselves now? They have to cower in the corner waiting for the man to protect them, but at the same time protect themselves from the attacker. Damn playing both roles seems hard.

It's nice to say that men should take action to defend the women, its a great sentiment, once again your version of what should happen and what does happen doesnt quite match up.

Just because were physically bigger/more gifted doesnt mean that we should be throwing ourselves in front of the bullets aimed at you.


Disclaimer: I may not actually agree with some of these points I'm bringing up. For instance I personally believe that men have a role in defending women. But it just seems like such bullshit for women to say "why the hell arent you defending me"? My question is "why the hell arent we defending each other?"

[treelizard]

I too have had dark periods in my life and I still have no sympathy for a guy who was stalking two women, setting things on fire, getting kicked out of classes because he made all the other students uncomfortable (and people quit showing up) and now this. I also feel no sympathy for the Columbine murderers who were going around saying "Do you believe in God? Do you believe in Jesus?" and shooting anybody that said yes. They took videos sometimes and people call some of the girls that said yes martyrs. I feel sympathy with the women that were killed, not the murderers.

[treelizard]

Indeed.

But when tree is making potshots at people "hiding under the desks with the women" or saying it's "too bad he didn't have the training to do better" that's fvcking BULL$hit and you know it.

So if you haven't really "been" there, kindly shut it on what you would have done, or what should have been done.
Face it, for all you know, you could have been hiding under the desks with the women too.

I AM a woman, and I'd be more than happy to hide under the desks with other women if some men would stand up and take care of the threat. Sadly, the type of men who do this are becoming nonexistent. That's why women have to fulfill both roles in this day and age, which like I said I'm willing to step up and do that as well if necessary. As someone who is getting training, I'd think you'd agree that the more training you have, the better you can do.
Go ahead and rail on me all you want. I know that if I didn't take care of a situation I was in by at least trying and doing the best I did and people died, I'd think "damn, I fucked up." I think there needs to be more of this, and less defeatism.

[Piston]

I'm just pissed because somewhere along the line, it stopped being okay for boys to fight and settle things, shake hands, and let shit go. It stopped being okay for a man to say to another man, "You're crossing the line." and be taken seriously. Hell, in most respects, it stopped being okay to simply act like a man at all! We can't be protectors, providers, or in some cases, even considerate gentlemen anymore without some P.C. implications. If we show bravery in the average, cake-eating civilian world, we get told things like "Don't be a hero" as if being a hero was somehow a bad thing! Treelizard, before you assault me for leaving women out of this rant, please understand that I do not own a uterus and I'm speaking strictly from my own perspective. I'm all for women who take a stand, too.

I totally sypmathise here. In the UK if a guy was to come into my house and try to burgle me, if I stood up to him, knocked the bugger out/attacked him in defence of my property *I* would be liable for assualt. Make sense much? Of course the flip side is people abusing the right to defend themselves and assualting the innocent.

Don't let it happen again....

I know this may be too harsh so soon after VT incident, but trust me the gun grabbers are hard at work. After, every tragedy gun grabbers come up with a new strategy. We need more trained CCW permited responsible individuals, to help with these kinds of events. If I offend some of you, that is a by product of my concern, but I believe in my rights of gun ownership and self defense.

This sort of thing, this mentality, is disgusting. I'm sure all those who have died in all these high school shootings, all their grieving friends and relatives are thinking "I'm glad the shooter's right to own a gun was protected". Honestly "gun grabbers"? This just screams of ignorance and fear of change. I'm not a big fan of governements in any form, they are just a group of people, notably ungoverned (10 points if anyone recognises that quote). But would introducing something like background checks meaning a small waiting time really impinge upon your right to tote M16's and Tec-9's for hunting purposes? Of course not, if you can be considered sane and not a felon. Laws are written in paper, not stone, and can therefore be changed to better suit its social climate.

[Tom Yum]

I'm just pissed because somewhere along the line, it stopped being okay for boys to fight and settle things, shake hands, and let shit go. It stopped being okay for a man to say to another man, "You're crossing the line." and be taken seriously. Hell, in most respects, it stopped being okay to simply act like a man at all! We can't be protectors, providers, or in some cases, even considerate gentlemen anymore without some P.C. implications. If we show bravery in the average, cake-eating civilian world, we get told things like "Don't be a hero" as if being a hero was somehow a bad thing! Treelizard, before you assault me for leaving women out of this rant, please understand that I do not own a uterus and I'm speaking strictly from my own perspective. I'm all for women who take a stand, too.

Something that came with this politically correct revolution (devolution is more like it) was that we as a people became entirely too thin-skinned. Everyone needed a label to describe them that ventured right on into the ludicrous. Five or six hyphens and adjectives later, they're still all just people. We can't take criticism anymore without feeling like people are trying to repress our creative what-the-fuckever. We feel some need to make an accomplishment out of every piece of BS trivia in our lives, a pat on the back for doing the minimum. I really feel like it has sucked the meaning right out of life and distorted our perceptions so badly that we've become a people who can look at a situation like the Virginia Tech massacre and actually give a shit about the guy who did the shooting! it's not just offensive to my sensibilities. It's offensive to my entire notion of humanity.

I just watched Cho's video manifesto and I'm a little more pissed; He's a selfish, selfish, selfish SOB.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=0b9_1176945832

I agree 100% with what you say about one's duty to take action decide to be a protector, provider or hero if one chooses, especially in cases like this.

Going above and beyond can attract the wrong kind of attention in some environments too. I think alot of people tread on average, because it deters negative attention...the "Who do you think you are!" effect and becoming the first guy getting kicked off the island, you know what I mean?

I think the reason why people look at this guy and give a shit about him is because this is becoming a pattern. The Luby's incident, the Columbine incident, all of the "going postal" incidents and now this. More specifically, what's driving the hearts and minds of these individuals.

Why does this matter?

Every bit of prevention helps. We've discussed several tactical ideas (loosening gun laws/beefing up armed security) but how about psychological - being able to pinpoint this problem kid and not letting him out of site.

We've talked about heroes on a tactical level (the student that escorted people into the room and locked the doors, the instructor who blocked the door and sacrificed himself so the students could leave), but we haven't talked about anyone reaching out to this guy on a personal level...I just wonder when he became "beyond help"...that guys manifesto is plain messed up.

[Garland]

We don't know what we would do under pressure. But you know what? We define our actions by our thoughts and training today. By solidifying our resolve to do a certain thing, we become more likely to do that thing when it matters. I don't know what I'd do in any situation, but I can decide now that I will act in accordance with my values and character, and I can train to carry out that course of action. I didn't know how I'd react the first time someone pulled a knife on me, but I trained to react, and I did. I didn't know how I'd react the first time someone shot at me, but I trained for that too and guess what? I reacted.

The "what-if," acceptance of defeat, just give the criminal what he wants and he'll go away mindset has not only made us into a bunch of cowards, it has emboldened criminals like no other thing in our society. What's wrong with telling people to stop being victims? What's wrong with saying that criminals should not be able to expect everyone to be the kind of pushover so many people seem to want to be? I think it would do us all some good to resolve to stand up for ourselves more often, even when it's a matter of life and death. No, especially when it's a matter of life and death.

...very poignant and well written. Brewer for President 2008!

(don't do it...I think I'd lose my sense of self if I had to vote Republican...and I'd have to.)

[Garland]

Obviously depression isn't the real factor. Millions of Americans suffer from depression every year, but they don't lash out like this.

I think he let himself think destructive thoughts as his frustration/isolation increased, didn't have any kind of regular outlet for it so it just snow balled.

I agree with the second statement, and I think that's a highly possible scenario.

But his affective state WAS definitely a contributing factor, and a big one at that.

[Garland]

i agree. i hate the fact that ever single time ive logged onto the internet today or turned on the tv, ive had to see that mass murderers face posing with a gun.

Oh...I can totally agree with that. This guy wanted recognition, and apparently he's getting plenty of it. If it were my call...I'd pull the shit from the air. I'd let people know there was a shooting, but **** naming the shooter...why let them have that? Let the fucker die in anonymity, nameless and faceless.

What I'm saying is that it is difficult to try and empathize with people who do horrible things, but it should be something each of us strives for- to better understand each other and treat EVERYBODY in our lives like they are worthwhile. I had a hard time buying it too...
but then I heard this anecdotal story which I, unfortunately, can't give because it was given in a closed meeting and was given under confidentiality.

basically,

The moral of the story was...
We choose to try to understand people for different reasons. Maybe I'd treat somebody like this to help understand what got them there...but also to try to get over hating them. There are some populations I don't think I could go there with, for instance pedophiles. I would just as soon open their neck (I've got my own shit to work through, obviously) given the means, opportunity, and ability to get away with it 100%, as I would like to help them with their issues. Just the same...I might be able to. I might be able to confront that part of me that prevents me from seeing a pedophile as a human being like you or me and disable it. The issue is...I really don't want to. I believe that we have to have some boundaries...

If I had been the victim of a sexual assault or rape as a child, I might work with a pedophile in order to understand what happened, and work through my own issues. I might not.




- as an aside, I have a little hypothesis about a contributing factor to this type of violent act. check the month, check the week. maybe you'll get a feel for what I'm saying- the shit is very specifically seasonal. Weather, allergens, finals...who the **** knows.
Maybe April is violent crime month, just like the hollidays are #1 for suicide.

[Tom Yum]

Good stuff, Mike.

I fully support what you say.

I don't mean to side track this topic, but there are so many freaking people out there who want to tear down or down play heroism or leading from the front, even though its risky and I'm getting pissed.

Some of our bretheren overseas were talking smack and doubt about United 93, whether it really happened but fail to mention the beatdown handed to shoe bomb f**ker by citizens who decided they weren't going down.

[Tom Yum]

Unfortunately, many people fit that profile. Many people also say things under stress that they don't really mean. A kid getting beat up at school by "jocks" saying jocks are gonna get some as he lies beaten to a pulp isn't necessarily going to go on to shoot his school up.

The columbine kids said that while they were on their shooting spree.

And then there are the legal/moral issues. They DID have Cho in hand in counseling sessions, but there simply wasn't much the university or authorities could do without solid proof of a crime. Can't forcibly institutionalize him, and can't arrest him.

So they did have him in counseling sessions? He was also on medication. Obviously depression isn't the real factor. Millions of Americans suffer from depression every year, but they don't lash out like this.

I think he let himself think destructive thoughts as his frustration/isolation increased, didn't have any kind of regular outlet for it so it just snow balled.

[bigred389]

The profile I got for this guy was someone who was very isolated, quiet. Narcissistic? I'm not sure. His classmates describe him as sitting in the back with his head tucked and not saying much. Adding to it are some of the ultra-violent stories he wrote about in his creative writing class.

He was quiet; bottled up all of his frustration and took it out on random people.

The kids in Columbine did something similar and are even quoted as saying that all the jocks are gonna get some?

Unfortunately, many people fit that profile. Many people also say things under stress that they don't really mean. A kid getting beat up at school by "jocks" saying jocks are gonna get some as he lies beaten to a pulp isn't necessarily going to go on to shoot his school up.

And then there are the legal/moral issues. They DID have Cho in hand in counseling sessions, but there simply wasn't much the university or authorities could do without solid proof of a crime. Can't forcibly institutionalize him, and can't arrest him.

[Tom Yum]

I just wish there was a more effective way of spotting them so that we could cull the herd more effectively as well.

The profile I got for this guy was someone who was very isolated, quiet. Narcissistic? I'm not sure. His classmates describe him as sitting in the back with his head tucked, hiding his face and not saying much. Adding to it are some of the ultra-violent gore stories he wrote about in his creative writing class.

He was quiet; bottled up all of his frustration and when it burst, he took it out on random people.

The kids in Columbine did something similar and are even quoted as saying like "all the jocks are gonna get some?" They were also dark, quiet types whom targeted random people belonging to the jock category?

[bigred389]

Do you think Liviu Librescu was delusional and stupid? I think he was a hero.

http://www.ny1.com/ny1/content/index...id=9&aid=68877

Nope he was a hero. But he made a decision under fire.

Sitting at home saying you'd do the same is delusional and stupid, which is what I said.

[bigred389]

You know, what I don't understand is why people want to sympathize with psychotic mass murderers.

It reminds me of that quote from Manhunter:

Will Graham: "As a child, my heart bleeds for him. Someone took a little boy and turned him into a monster. But as an adult... as an adult, he's irredeemable. He butchers whole families to fulfill some sick fantasy. As an adult, I think someone should blow the sick **** out of his socks. Does that disturb you? Does that kind of understanding make you uncomfortable?"

I don't WANT to sympathize or empathize with him. The only reason I can, is because there was a fairly shitty period in my life.

Quite frankly, it'd be nice if I COULDN'T empathize, b/c it would mean my life had been all sunshine and roses. Get the difference?

[DickHardman]

And yet neither you nor your classmates have felt a need to blow away thirty-some-odd faculty members and classmates. Hmmmm.

Could the real difference lie somewhere in personal accountability and respect for life?

I totally get Treelizard's frustration. It seems when something like this happens, people get so caught up in "How can we better understand the poor killer with the messed up childhood" mentality and in so doing, they forget the innocent victims. We see the gunman who did the killing all over the news, non-stop, for days and weeks after the event, and yet no one can name any five of the victims killed. No one knows the names of the heroic few who tried to keep the murderer out of the classroom, because that's not where we put our focus. That is frustrating in the extreme, and I can't help but think that in many ways, it's a big part of what feeds the problem. Psychotic narcissists with delusions of grandeur decide that the way to get their message across is to send tapes to NBC and shoot a bunch of people. We play into it, we buy the news stories, and we tune in like a bunch of idiots, learning all about the killer while the families of the victims and heroes weep over caskets and broken hearts.

i agree. i hate the fact that ever single time ive logged onto the internet today or turned on the tv, ive had to see that mass murderers face posing with a gun.