Gunman Kills 21 on Virginia Tech campus

[bigred389]

The profile I got for this guy was someone who was very isolated, quiet. Narcissistic? I'm not sure. His classmates describe him as sitting in the back with his head tucked and not saying much. Adding to it are some of the ultra-violent stories he wrote about in his creative writing class.

He was quiet; bottled up all of his frustration and took it out on random people.

The kids in Columbine did something similar and are even quoted as saying that all the jocks are gonna get some?

Unfortunately, many people fit that profile. Many people also say things under stress that they don't really mean. A kid getting beat up at school by "jocks" saying jocks are gonna get some as he lies beaten to a pulp isn't necessarily going to go on to shoot his school up.

And then there are the legal/moral issues. They DID have Cho in hand in counseling sessions, but there simply wasn't much the university or authorities could do without solid proof of a crime. Can't forcibly institutionalize him, and can't arrest him.

[Tom Yum]

Unfortunately, many people fit that profile. Many people also say things under stress that they don't really mean. A kid getting beat up at school by "jocks" saying jocks are gonna get some as he lies beaten to a pulp isn't necessarily going to go on to shoot his school up.

The columbine kids said that while they were on their shooting spree.

And then there are the legal/moral issues. They DID have Cho in hand in counseling sessions, but there simply wasn't much the university or authorities could do without solid proof of a crime. Can't forcibly institutionalize him, and can't arrest him.

So they did have him in counseling sessions? He was also on medication. Obviously depression isn't the real factor. Millions of Americans suffer from depression every year, but they don't lash out like this.

I think he let himself think destructive thoughts as his frustration/isolation increased, didn't have any kind of regular outlet for it so it just snow balled.

[Tom Yum]

Good stuff, Mike.

I fully support what you say.

I don't mean to side track this topic, but there are so many freaking people out there who want to tear down or down play heroism or leading from the front, even though its risky and I'm getting pissed.

Some of our bretheren overseas were talking smack and doubt about United 93, whether it really happened but fail to mention the beatdown handed to shoe bomb f**ker by citizens who decided they weren't going down.

[Garland]

i agree. i hate the fact that ever single time ive logged onto the internet today or turned on the tv, ive had to see that mass murderers face posing with a gun.

Oh...I can totally agree with that. This guy wanted recognition, and apparently he's getting plenty of it. If it were my call...I'd pull the shit from the air. I'd let people know there was a shooting, but **** naming the shooter...why let them have that? Let the fucker die in anonymity, nameless and faceless.

What I'm saying is that it is difficult to try and empathize with people who do horrible things, but it should be something each of us strives for- to better understand each other and treat EVERYBODY in our lives like they are worthwhile. I had a hard time buying it too...
but then I heard this anecdotal story which I, unfortunately, can't give because it was given in a closed meeting and was given under confidentiality.

basically,

The moral of the story was...
We choose to try to understand people for different reasons. Maybe I'd treat somebody like this to help understand what got them there...but also to try to get over hating them. There are some populations I don't think I could go there with, for instance pedophiles. I would just as soon open their neck (I've got my own shit to work through, obviously) given the means, opportunity, and ability to get away with it 100%, as I would like to help them with their issues. Just the same...I might be able to. I might be able to confront that part of me that prevents me from seeing a pedophile as a human being like you or me and disable it. The issue is...I really don't want to. I believe that we have to have some boundaries...

If I had been the victim of a sexual assault or rape as a child, I might work with a pedophile in order to understand what happened, and work through my own issues. I might not.




- as an aside, I have a little hypothesis about a contributing factor to this type of violent act. check the month, check the week. maybe you'll get a feel for what I'm saying- the shit is very specifically seasonal. Weather, allergens, finals...who the **** knows.
Maybe April is violent crime month, just like the hollidays are #1 for suicide.

[Garland]

Obviously depression isn't the real factor. Millions of Americans suffer from depression every year, but they don't lash out like this.

I think he let himself think destructive thoughts as his frustration/isolation increased, didn't have any kind of regular outlet for it so it just snow balled.

I agree with the second statement, and I think that's a highly possible scenario.

But his affective state WAS definitely a contributing factor, and a big one at that.

[Garland]

We don't know what we would do under pressure. But you know what? We define our actions by our thoughts and training today. By solidifying our resolve to do a certain thing, we become more likely to do that thing when it matters. I don't know what I'd do in any situation, but I can decide now that I will act in accordance with my values and character, and I can train to carry out that course of action. I didn't know how I'd react the first time someone pulled a knife on me, but I trained to react, and I did. I didn't know how I'd react the first time someone shot at me, but I trained for that too and guess what? I reacted.

The "what-if," acceptance of defeat, just give the criminal what he wants and he'll go away mindset has not only made us into a bunch of cowards, it has emboldened criminals like no other thing in our society. What's wrong with telling people to stop being victims? What's wrong with saying that criminals should not be able to expect everyone to be the kind of pushover so many people seem to want to be? I think it would do us all some good to resolve to stand up for ourselves more often, even when it's a matter of life and death. No, especially when it's a matter of life and death.

...very poignant and well written. Brewer for President 2008!

(don't do it...I think I'd lose my sense of self if I had to vote Republican...and I'd have to.)

[Tom Yum]

I'm just pissed because somewhere along the line, it stopped being okay for boys to fight and settle things, shake hands, and let shit go. It stopped being okay for a man to say to another man, "You're crossing the line." and be taken seriously. Hell, in most respects, it stopped being okay to simply act like a man at all! We can't be protectors, providers, or in some cases, even considerate gentlemen anymore without some P.C. implications. If we show bravery in the average, cake-eating civilian world, we get told things like "Don't be a hero" as if being a hero was somehow a bad thing! Treelizard, before you assault me for leaving women out of this rant, please understand that I do not own a uterus and I'm speaking strictly from my own perspective. I'm all for women who take a stand, too.

Something that came with this politically correct revolution (devolution is more like it) was that we as a people became entirely too thin-skinned. Everyone needed a label to describe them that ventured right on into the ludicrous. Five or six hyphens and adjectives later, they're still all just people. We can't take criticism anymore without feeling like people are trying to repress our creative what-the-fuckever. We feel some need to make an accomplishment out of every piece of BS trivia in our lives, a pat on the back for doing the minimum. I really feel like it has sucked the meaning right out of life and distorted our perceptions so badly that we've become a people who can look at a situation like the Virginia Tech massacre and actually give a shit about the guy who did the shooting! it's not just offensive to my sensibilities. It's offensive to my entire notion of humanity.

I just watched Cho's video manifesto and I'm a little more pissed; He's a selfish, selfish, selfish SOB.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=0b9_1176945832

I agree 100% with what you say about one's duty to take action decide to be a protector, provider or hero if one chooses, especially in cases like this.

Going above and beyond can attract the wrong kind of attention in some environments too. I think alot of people tread on average, because it deters negative attention...the "Who do you think you are!" effect and becoming the first guy getting kicked off the island, you know what I mean?

I think the reason why people look at this guy and give a shit about him is because this is becoming a pattern. The Luby's incident, the Columbine incident, all of the "going postal" incidents and now this. More specifically, what's driving the hearts and minds of these individuals.

Why does this matter?

Every bit of prevention helps. We've discussed several tactical ideas (loosening gun laws/beefing up armed security) but how about psychological - being able to pinpoint this problem kid and not letting him out of site.

We've talked about heroes on a tactical level (the student that escorted people into the room and locked the doors, the instructor who blocked the door and sacrificed himself so the students could leave), but we haven't talked about anyone reaching out to this guy on a personal level...I just wonder when he became "beyond help"...that guys manifesto is plain messed up.

[Piston]

I'm just pissed because somewhere along the line, it stopped being okay for boys to fight and settle things, shake hands, and let shit go. It stopped being okay for a man to say to another man, "You're crossing the line." and be taken seriously. Hell, in most respects, it stopped being okay to simply act like a man at all! We can't be protectors, providers, or in some cases, even considerate gentlemen anymore without some P.C. implications. If we show bravery in the average, cake-eating civilian world, we get told things like "Don't be a hero" as if being a hero was somehow a bad thing! Treelizard, before you assault me for leaving women out of this rant, please understand that I do not own a uterus and I'm speaking strictly from my own perspective. I'm all for women who take a stand, too.

I totally sypmathise here. In the UK if a guy was to come into my house and try to burgle me, if I stood up to him, knocked the bugger out/attacked him in defence of my property *I* would be liable for assualt. Make sense much? Of course the flip side is people abusing the right to defend themselves and assualting the innocent.

Don't let it happen again....

I know this may be too harsh so soon after VT incident, but trust me the gun grabbers are hard at work. After, every tragedy gun grabbers come up with a new strategy. We need more trained CCW permited responsible individuals, to help with these kinds of events. If I offend some of you, that is a by product of my concern, but I believe in my rights of gun ownership and self defense.

This sort of thing, this mentality, is disgusting. I'm sure all those who have died in all these high school shootings, all their grieving friends and relatives are thinking "I'm glad the shooter's right to own a gun was protected". Honestly "gun grabbers"? This just screams of ignorance and fear of change. I'm not a big fan of governements in any form, they are just a group of people, notably ungoverned (10 points if anyone recognises that quote). But would introducing something like background checks meaning a small waiting time really impinge upon your right to tote M16's and Tec-9's for hunting purposes? Of course not, if you can be considered sane and not a felon. Laws are written in paper, not stone, and can therefore be changed to better suit its social climate.

[treelizard]

Indeed.

But when tree is making potshots at people "hiding under the desks with the women" or saying it's "too bad he didn't have the training to do better" that's fvcking BULL$hit and you know it.

So if you haven't really "been" there, kindly shut it on what you would have done, or what should have been done.
Face it, for all you know, you could have been hiding under the desks with the women too.

I AM a woman, and I'd be more than happy to hide under the desks with other women if some men would stand up and take care of the threat. Sadly, the type of men who do this are becoming nonexistent. That's why women have to fulfill both roles in this day and age, which like I said I'm willing to step up and do that as well if necessary. As someone who is getting training, I'd think you'd agree that the more training you have, the better you can do.
Go ahead and rail on me all you want. I know that if I didn't take care of a situation I was in by at least trying and doing the best I did and people died, I'd think "damn, I fucked up." I think there needs to be more of this, and less defeatism.

[treelizard]

I too have had dark periods in my life and I still have no sympathy for a guy who was stalking two women, setting things on fire, getting kicked out of classes because he made all the other students uncomfortable (and people quit showing up) and now this. I also feel no sympathy for the Columbine murderers who were going around saying "Do you believe in God? Do you believe in Jesus?" and shooting anybody that said yes. They took videos sometimes and people call some of the girls that said yes martyrs. I feel sympathy with the women that were killed, not the murderers.

[SamuraiGuy]

I AM a woman, and I'd be more than happy to hide under the desks with other women if some men would stand up and take care of the threat. Sadly, the type of men who do this are becoming nonexistent. That's why women have to fulfill both roles in this day and age, which like I said I'm willing to step up and do that as well if necessary.

Question: Judging from your previous posts, your all for equal rights, women can do anything men can do, women are just as capable as men, etc...

Correct?


Now let me ask you this, for all your going on about taking out the threat etc... and what I've assumed to be your beliefs on feminist ideals, how can you say you would be happy to hide under the desk with other women if men were around to stop the attacker.

Hiding under the desk with women? First of all why the **** are the women the gender that gets to hide under the desk? They should be just as responsible for themselves and the safety of others as men are.

The amount of men willing to stand up and take a stand, maybe thats because feminism, etc.. Has made it this way, if you want it to be equal, equal pay, equal rights, equal equal equal, wheres the equality for men. Isnt their right to hide under the desk as equal as yours as a woman. Too bad we cant hide udner the desk and think "damn I wish there were more woman who would stand up and defend me in this day and age"

The next part about them becoming non-existent closely ties in with the political correctness things. As people become more limited in whats "right" to do, so do the chances of people actually doing what is right, instead of what is percieved as "right" in a given situation.

Thats why women have to fulfill both roles?

Awww muffin, poor you. You mean women have to look out for themselves now? They have to cower in the corner waiting for the man to protect them, but at the same time protect themselves from the attacker. Damn playing both roles seems hard.

It's nice to say that men should take action to defend the women, its a great sentiment, once again your version of what should happen and what does happen doesnt quite match up.

Just because were physically bigger/more gifted doesnt mean that we should be throwing ourselves in front of the bullets aimed at you.


Disclaimer: I may not actually agree with some of these points I'm bringing up. For instance I personally believe that men have a role in defending women. But it just seems like such bullshit for women to say "why the hell arent you defending me"? My question is "why the hell arent we defending each other?"

[bigred389]

As someone who is getting training, I'd think you'd agree that the more training you have, the better you can do.

Uh yes...given the opportunity. But I don't expect hand to hand training to translate to facing down somebody with a gun...particularly one that's already established distance.

Putting it in terms we all can understand, Royce Gracie doesn't enter into professional boxing matches for a reason. A century of man's existence has shown us that a gun changes the "game" quite a bit.

Go ahead and rail on me all you want. I know that if I didn't take care of a situation I was in by at least trying and doing the best I did and people died, I'd think "damn, I fucked up."

It's one thing when you realize you're cornered. Then your options are fight or void.

I'm talking about the many people who simply decided to flee...I don't think anybody should be criticizing them.
For one thing, they're probably feeling pretty shitty as it is. The last thing they need is to hear any sort of jackass who wasn't there spouting how they should've stood up to the shooter.
I don't believe people should "accept' being victims, but that's what they've become, and we should deal with that appropriately.

Second, saying you need to stand up to every threat is simply delusional. If somebody mugged me over $40, and they had a knife, I'm not ashamed to say I consider my life to be worth more than $40.
Of course, by your logic, I need to try to kick his ass even if I'm unarmed, because he might go on to greater crimes...and then I'd feel bad.

I think there needs to be more of this, and less defeatism.

You know the Soviet political officers used to complain about the same thing on the Eastern Front when unarmed conscripts didn't want to charge across minefields covered by multiple machine guns. Guess those guys were cowards too.

[bigred389]

Big Red,
I have had some pretty dark periods in my life as well, and I can say that I have nothing in common with the shitbag that committed this massacre. The difference between me and him is that I recognize choice and responsibility. I could tell people that I was beaten and burned with cigars and all sorts of other heinous stuff as a kid too. That doesn't excuse the killing of innocent people. What it does is makes it clear that it's time to seek help in healthier ways.

OK Mike...I respect your opinions but I respectfully disagree:

What sort of help? A crazy person is by definition someone who's incapable of making rational decisions. Which leads to my second point:

In my opinion, too many people these days have been taught that it's okay to be a victim, and that being a victim somehow entitles a person to the pity and sympathy of others. You of all people should be even more outraged that someone did what he did, and is using the "bad childhood" card as some kind of an excuse! You overcame it! Why couldn't he?

You don't feel pity and sympathy for a kid who's abused by his caregivers? Or someone victimized by a gang on a daily basis? Who knows how this affects them mentally?
And we can't "always" win. That's not defeatism, that's fact. On any given day, anybody can lose, especially when the odds are stacked against you.

And somebody abused when they're vulnerable is going to have those problems beaten into them early on.

And we don't even know "how" people snap. What separates them from the millions of other unhappy people who manage to function anyway? It's not an excuse...it's an interesting factor if we're objectively trying to figure out how these people are made. Because they weren't born that way.

Yes, we all have choice. But we've also had formative influences growing up, both good and bad.

The "what-if," acceptance of defeat, just give the criminal what he wants and he'll go away mindset has not only made us into a bunch of cowards, it has emboldened criminals like no other thing in our society. What's wrong with telling people to stop being victims? What's wrong with saying that criminals should not be able to expect everyone to be the kind of pushover so many people seem to want to be? I think it would do us all some good to resolve to stand up for ourselves more often, even when it's a matter of life and death. No, especially when it's a matter of life and death.

You seem to be a rational guy. I don't think you're implying the people who ran from the gunman should've turned around and faced him down unarmed in a hallway instead.

Really, what's your life worth? Do you have to stand up to everything? Would you fight a mugger with a gun over $20? Really, if we could stand up to every threat, we wouldn't need professional warriors or organizations would we?

[Tant01]

....So if you haven't really "been" there, kindly shut it on what you would have done, or what should have been done.
Face it, for all you know, you could have been hiding under the desks with the women too.

With all due respect sir, I have put myself in harms way to defend innocent people. I've been chastised by Judges for "wreckless disregard of my own safety". On more than one occasion I have found myself unarmed against a gunman. They missed...

Sometimes there is a fine line between a so called hero and a fool.

When the gun is in your face you can act or you can die... You can recognize murderous intent or ignore it...

The choice is yours or you can let the maniac with the gun decide for you...

You won't have the luxury of weighing your options in the moment of crisis.

[bigred389]

I feel pity for them, but I do not excuse them from their actions. Crazy or not, wrong is wrong. I wish that there was a way to help everyone in a situation like that. More, I wish there was a way to end situations like that. But when a person crosses the line and starts killing people, I stop caring whether or not he's sane and I want him stopped, not helped.

As for your statement that we can't always win? You're right. But I believe we can always try. When you have a single gunman outnumbered by dozens to one, it is worth a try. I know it might mean a few people are shot - but many people were shot anyway. As a personal choice, and one that I've had to act on more than once in my lifetime, I would rather die fighting back than die under a desk. You mentioned "the odds being stacked against you." How is a college campus of hundreds (actually, of 26,000, but I'll be conservative and only count those who dealt with Cho directly) facing a single, lone gunman an illustration of the odds being stacked? If anything, it means the odds were stacked against Cho.

Well, looks like we disagree on a tactical point...

See, I think the loss of life would've been heavier had they moved TOWARDS the threat.

I'm all in favor of doing the right thing, but it's one thing when you're not given a choice(cornered), and quite another when you can live to fight another day.
Stopping to help someone who clearly needs help getting out....see that's a reasonable expectation from a fellow human being. Practically committing suicide(as I see it) in an action with low probability of success anyway is IMO NOT a reasonable thing to expect somebody else to do.

That's why we have cops and a military. THEY head towards the threat b/c it's their job. The civilian's place is to contribute to good order of society. They can't do that if they're dead.