Gunman Kills 21 on Virginia Tech campus

[Rudy Franco]

Don't let it happen again....

I know this may be too harsh so soon after VT incident, but trust me the gun grabbers are hard at work. After, every tragedy gun grabbers come up with a new strategy. We need more trained CCW permited responsible individuals, to help with these kinds of events. If I offend some of you, that is a by product of my concern, but I believe in my rights of gun ownership and self defense.

[Tant01]

...."Gunman Thwarted By Gun-Toting Students"
by Donald Reporterman
.....

...Another student put it less diplomatically, saying, "What a dumbass! Who comes onto a well-armed college campus and threatens to shoot people? That guy should have known he was asking to get wasted!!"

All total, the gunman was found to have been shot some 116 times, stopping him instantly and, in this reporter's opinion, sending a clear message to others who may have similar ideas in the future.

Back to you, Sally.

If only the world were that rational...

I like your idea of rational.

[SamuraiGuy]

What if you're WITH your loved ones, as is often the case? I guess you have to ask yourself if you want to be the one running and hiding and surviving if that means your loved ones get killed.

This is an extremely different situation from the one previously described, where you have to stay alive for the sake of your loved ones.

In this situation keeping your loved ones alive would (hopefully) be the natural response. In this case, running your ass off so you can make it out alive and get back to your family, isnt a viable option when there wont be a family to get back to.

In this case you do whatever you do to keep your family alive. Engaging the attacker so they can get away, etc...

The sentiment I have is doing whats best for your family, getting safely back to them is the goal for number one, getting them (and then yourself) safely away is the priority in number 2.

Different situation, different response.

[bigred389]

The CCW laws in certain states forbit adults from carrying in places like schools and other places, that make a certain % revenue from alcohol -> so very few law-abiding folk would have been armed. Ironically, anyone who would have been armed could have prevented the high death toll.

As far as getting into an office, pulling in stragglers and locking or securing the door and calling 911, that's not chest beating -> that's instinct.

Not sure what the CCW laws are about...I go to college...I'm fully aware most campuses have blanket NO WEAPON policies.

I wasn't criticizing securing the door, pulling in stragglers is rational behavior, which I would hope ANYBODY would fvcking do.

I was referring to those talking about the go out in a blaze of glory bull$hit.

That was disrespectful, delusional, and stupid.

[treelizard]

I was referring to those talking about the go out in a blaze of glory bull$hit.

That was disrespectful, delusional, and stupid.

Do you think Liviu Librescu was delusional and stupid? I think he was a hero.

http://www.ny1.com/ny1/content/index.jsp?stid=9&aid=68877

[Tant01]

....I wasn't criticizing securing the door, pulling in stragglers is rational behavior, which I would hope ANYBODY would ... do.

I was referring to those talking about the go out in a blaze of glory bull$hit.

That was disrespectful, delusional, and stupid.

I'll tell you this much bigred, many heros are made by accident more than design. DOING ANYTHING might have led to a different result.

Some folks will never have the WILL to eliminate the threat. Those will run away...To be a hero is not so much about bravado as self sacrafice. They will run toward the big scary thing killing innocent young people...Because that's the only way to STOP it.

To do the right THING. Is a choice. Sometimes it doesn't take training or skill so much as intent, a bit of luck and sheer determination.

[treelizard]

I can certainly empathise...I've felt like the loner/outcast before, and honestly it was a pretty shitty feeling. And I also know what an abusive upbringing can be like. I really do pity him...

You know, what I don't understand is why people want to sympathize with psychotic mass murderers.

It reminds me of that quote from Manhunter:

Will Graham: "As a child, my heart bleeds for him. Someone took a little boy and turned him into a monster. But as an adult... as an adult, he's irredeemable. He butchers whole families to fulfill some sick fantasy. As an adult, I think someone should blow the sick **** out of his socks. Does that disturb you? Does that kind of understanding make you uncomfortable?"

[Garland]

You know, what I don't understand is why people want to sympathize with psychotic mass murderers.

It reminds me of that quote from Manhunter:

Will Graham: "As a child, my heart bleeds for him. Someone took a little boy and turned him into a monster. But as an adult... as an adult, he's irredeemable. He butchers whole families to fulfill some sick fantasy. As an adult, I think someone should blow the sick **** out of his socks. Does that disturb you? Does that kind of understanding make you uncomfortable?"

There is a TREMENDOUS difference between sympathy (feeling with) and empathy (feeling for). In the line of work I am rigorously studying to prepare and dedicate my life to, I will most likely have to empathize with people whom have done horrible things. I will most probably have to deal with abusive spouses, rapists, murderers, theiving and lying drug addicts, marraiges wrought with infidelity, and so on. I will also have to deal with those who have survived these people, and those who have cared for these people.

I do not have to like the person. But I am going to have to challenge myself, however hard it may be, to try and understand and help these people. I have no idea how I am going to do this. I struggle with the whole concept quite a bit... I think to myself,

"Okay, Garland, this person wishes to reconcile with her father who beat her and raped her as a child, who used her as currency to feed his drug habit...and I am going to have to try and facillitate this without cold cocking the motherfucker. Not only am I going to have to deal with this person who has caused unimaginable suffering to my client, who has balled in my office and who has torn her own life asunder and never fully recovered from the trauma he inflicted, but I have to be understanding to him and to her...I have to try my best to help her first, but also to help him."

Tall order.

Today in one of my classes we watched a video of some actual therapy sessions with a woman who was, quite frankly, a battered wife. Things got much worse before they got better, and the client ultimately had to help herself. How hard is it going to be on me to care for my client, to see this person in front of me asking for my help, be hurt and not be able to change things...to be, in many ways, unable to protect her?

I will have to deal with both sides of this, and much more if I succeed in my goal of becoming a LCC...and in my long term goal of becoming a Psychologist.

Think about that. Every single week I have had my own classmates break down around me, every one of them has self disclosed the immense and horrific traumas, disorders, pains, addictions, sorrows, etc. REM puts it best, "everybody hurts." I have come to hold tremendous respect for my instructors and my peers...we run the gauntlet...an agoge of emotional material added to our personal issues. This is hardest thing I've ever done in my life.

[Tom Yum]

Today in one of my classes we watched a video of some actual therapy sessions with a woman who was, quite frankly, a battered wife. Things got much worse before they got better, and the client ultimately had to help herself. How hard is it going to be on me to care for my client, to see this person in front of me asking for my help, be hurt and not be able to change things...to be, in many ways, unable to protect her?

Yeah, you've got a tremendous task in front of you, G.

What's alarming is the numbers of women who have experienced some kind of sexual abuse. Its alarming.

[Garland]

Yeah, you've got a tremendous task in front of you, G.

What's alarming is the numbers of women who have experienced some kind of sexual abuse. Its alarming.

Women 1:3
Men 1:8
That's perhaps the saddest figure I've ever seen. Awful. So unbelievably terrible. Mothers, wives, girlfriends, daughters, coworkers, peers, lovers, friends, aunts, neices, bosses, doctors, shrinks... one in three.

[bigred389]

I'll tell you this much bigred, many heros are made by accident more than design. DOING ANYTHING might have led to a different result.

Some folks will never have the WILL to eliminate the threat. Those will run away...To be a hero is not so much about bravado as self sacrafice. They will run toward the big scary thing killing innocent young people...Because that's the only way to STOP it.

To do the right THING. Is a choice. Sometimes it doesn't take training or skill so much as intent, a bit of luck and sheer determination.

Indeed.

That said, saying you would have or will is quite different from actually BEING there.

I've made a decision to go into a profession that ultimately involves facing a threat and eliminating it. I "get it" OK?

But when tree is making potshots at people "hiding under the desks with the women" or saying it's "too bad he didn't have the training to do better" that's fvcking BULL$hit and you know it.

If you decide to be the sheepdog, you don't look down on the sheep for being sheep. You're absolutely right...some people just don't have it in them to face down a threat.

But the only REAL test of that is to get thrown in the fire. Under pressure, quiet harmless individuals have become fighters, and chestthumping "heros" have been cowards.

So if you haven't really "been" there, kindly shut it on what you would have done, or what should have been done.
Face it, for all you know, you could have been hiding under the desks with the women too.

[DickHardman]

And yet neither you nor your classmates have felt a need to blow away thirty-some-odd faculty members and classmates. Hmmmm.

Could the real difference lie somewhere in personal accountability and respect for life?

I totally get Treelizard's frustration. It seems when something like this happens, people get so caught up in "How can we better understand the poor killer with the messed up childhood" mentality and in so doing, they forget the innocent victims. We see the gunman who did the killing all over the news, non-stop, for days and weeks after the event, and yet no one can name any five of the victims killed. No one knows the names of the heroic few who tried to keep the murderer out of the classroom, because that's not where we put our focus. That is frustrating in the extreme, and I can't help but think that in many ways, it's a big part of what feeds the problem. Psychotic narcissists with delusions of grandeur decide that the way to get their message across is to send tapes to NBC and shoot a bunch of people. We play into it, we buy the news stories, and we tune in like a bunch of idiots, learning all about the killer while the families of the victims and heroes weep over caskets and broken hearts.

i agree. i hate the fact that ever single time ive logged onto the internet today or turned on the tv, ive had to see that mass murderers face posing with a gun.

[bigred389]

You know, what I don't understand is why people want to sympathize with psychotic mass murderers.

It reminds me of that quote from Manhunter:

Will Graham: "As a child, my heart bleeds for him. Someone took a little boy and turned him into a monster. But as an adult... as an adult, he's irredeemable. He butchers whole families to fulfill some sick fantasy. As an adult, I think someone should blow the sick **** out of his socks. Does that disturb you? Does that kind of understanding make you uncomfortable?"

I don't WANT to sympathize or empathize with him. The only reason I can, is because there was a fairly shitty period in my life.

Quite frankly, it'd be nice if I COULDN'T empathize, b/c it would mean my life had been all sunshine and roses. Get the difference?

[bigred389]

Do you think Liviu Librescu was delusional and stupid? I think he was a hero.

http://www.ny1.com/ny1/content/index...id=9&aid=68877

Nope he was a hero. But he made a decision under fire.

Sitting at home saying you'd do the same is delusional and stupid, which is what I said.

[Tom Yum]

I just wish there was a more effective way of spotting them so that we could cull the herd more effectively as well.

The profile I got for this guy was someone who was very isolated, quiet. Narcissistic? I'm not sure. His classmates describe him as sitting in the back with his head tucked, hiding his face and not saying much. Adding to it are some of the ultra-violent gore stories he wrote about in his creative writing class.

He was quiet; bottled up all of his frustration and when it burst, he took it out on random people.

The kids in Columbine did something similar and are even quoted as saying like "all the jocks are gonna get some?" They were also dark, quiet types whom targeted random people belonging to the jock category?