Gunman Kills 21 on Virginia Tech campus

[treelizard]

Aside from Liviu Librescu, there was also a student named Zach Petkewicz who was cowering behind a podium who decided to take action. He got a bunch of fellow students to move a table against the door and HELD it there while there while gunshots were going off, and even after the door opened they all pushed the table against the door again...basically saving the entire classroom.

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/04/17/vtech.closecall/

[Tom Yum]

Cho didn't have the stones to face his own ghosts. Doesn't sound like much of a team player either. No joke intended.

There are thousands of examples of Korean immigrants whom have come to this country, have eaten bitter discrimination and went on to do bigger and better things in their lives.

Did this guy Cho ever do anything oustide of the bounds of studying?

Was he ever involved in any competitive sports or music?

I don't have any hard statistics to back it up, but as I remember, most kids who were involved in music, sports, theatre or a combination thereof in highschool or college where probably the most resilient i.e. able to bounce back and maintain a healthy self-esteem.

Cho makes a mention to Kleibold and Harris, the two gunman in the Columbine shootings. Were there any other parallels?

Kleibold and Harris targeted jocks, uppity Christians and women.

Cho targeted the rich and women.

The only parallel I can see here is that these psychopaths targeted the things they believed they could not have.

[Tom Yum]

I AM a woman, .

And a tree lizard.

[treelizard]

If somebody mugged me over $40, and they had a knife, I'm not ashamed to say I consider my life to be worth more than $40.
Of course, by your logic, I need to try to kick his ass even if I'm unarmed, because he might go on to greater crimes...and then I'd feel bad.

I didn't say anything resembling that. Money is far less important than one's life. I also consider the life of a child more important than my life, which is why I would really really really hope that I'd give my life if necessary to protect a room full of students... I just wish other people would get the training necessary to do the same...and I wish more people would feel the same.

As far as fight or flight and split second decisions, I think we have a bit of control over that as well by what we envision as possibilities and train for.

[treelizard]

Question: Judging from your previous posts, your all for equal rights, women can do anything men can do, women are just as capable as men, etc...

Correct?

Actually, I think men are much more capable than women as protectors. They're physically, chemically, emotionally, mentally and psychologically built for it... I do think women with training are more capable than men who refuse to do their jobs, though.

Now let me ask you this, for all your going on about taking out the threat etc... and what I've assumed to be your beliefs on feminist ideals, how can you say you would be happy to hide under the desk with other women if men were around to stop the attacker.

Hiding under the desk with women? First of all why the **** are the women the gender that gets to hide under the desk? They should be just as responsible for themselves and the safety of others as men are.

Nobody ever said life was fair or easy.

The amount of men willing to stand up and take a stand, maybe thats because feminism, etc.. Has made it this way, if you want it to be equal, equal pay, equal rights, equal equal equal, wheres the equality for men. Isnt their right to hide under the desk as equal as yours as a woman. Too bad we cant hide udner the desk and think "damn I wish there were more woman who would stand up and defend me in this day and age"

Too bad men can't breastfeed.

You mean women have to look out for themselves now? They have to cower in the corner waiting for the man to protect them, but at the same time protect themselves from the attacker. Damn playing both roles seems hard.

Women are basically responsible for keeping civilization running. Their work is harder and definitely more inclusive than cowering in the corner waiting for men to protect them. I do think you should try carrying around a baby and caring for all of it's needs down center city while looking around for potential threats at the same time...just for an hour... see what it's like.

Just because were physically bigger/more gifted doesnt mean that we should be throwing ourselves in front of the bullets aimed at you.

You're right. It's a choice. But answer this: if you had to choose between having 9 women and 1 man left on this earth or 9 men and 1 woman, which would you choose?

Disclaimer: I may not actually agree with some of these points I'm bringing up. For instance I personally believe that men have a role in defending women. But it just seems like such bullshit for women to say "why the hell arent you defending me"? My question is "why the hell arent we defending each other?"

All I can say is when I was at a friend's house and we heard someone trying to break in and he told me to stay inside (with his little sister, actually) got his gun and headed out, I was more than happy to follow his direction. I suppose all three of us could have headed out to defend each other, but there's a tactical reason he told us to stay... I'm sure you can figure that one out.

[Britt]

I'll post more details very soon, but remember him when you hear people talking about sympathy for the murderer because of his traumatic childhood. I'd wager that no matter what kind of trauma Cho experienced, it was not even close ot on par with seeing people you loved fed into ovens or gas chambers.

I agree about childhood emotional trauma, but specifically I wonder if he may have suffered brain trauma, aka organic brain damage. I've seen some cases where things like strokes caused massive personality deterioration and weakened impulse contol to cause ordinary people to become criminal offenders. I know of one case where a normal husband and father who suffered a massive stroke slowly slid into the personality of a sex offender. He never committed a crime, but hospital staff had to be aware he now had those tendencies. It's sad, but rare.

I'm not saying that's definitely the case with Cho, but he was weird enough to make me wonder. Even if that were the case, my sympathies would lie with victims like Mr. Librescu first.

[DickHardman]

i dont have any pity for the gunman. people have had it much worse in life and come out heroes like this guy who survived the holocaust which im sure was way worse than anything that the gunman had gone through.

ive seen the gunmans face and pictures all over the tv and internet every single day since this happened, but i have yet to see a single pic of Librescu.

[Tant01]

...

"When the gun is in your face" is a very graphic way of putting life and death situations, but like I said, it ignores the reality of the situation.

Is the gun literally in your face?
What are the odds you are within reasonable reach of the gunman?
If you are not in reach of the gunman, how many fleeing people do you have to impede/get past in your attempt to reach the gunman?
How many MORE people will die due to the delay you cause?
How many people will simply knock you down in panic, leading you to be trampled, and leading your effort to ultimately be unsuccessful?

I'm not going to go so far as to suggest picking up a dead body to use as a shield to close the gap... But I might...

We will never know just how graphic it was but extreme situations often call for extreme solutions...

There is no doubt about the risk of serious injury or death. Or the risk of failure...

But what if you succeed? Then you would know you have what it takes to stand up in the face of adversity...

That's being a good human being. There is no greater sacrifice than to give your life on behalf of others.

You are only able if you're willing...You know?

[Britt]

One thing to remember: somebody might have tried to stop him, and failed, and died trying. We'll never know what somebody might have done. Regardless, I can't much fault anything anyone might or might not have done. Has anyone seen that video where the Pennsylvania politician R. "Budd" Dwyer shoots himself in front of dozens of reporters at a press conference? A couple of people started towards him, and he warned them off with "stay back, this may hurt someone," and then very quickly shoots himself. It's hard to blame them for hesitiating for that crucial half second: "is he serious? Is he going to shoot himself, or us? Can I take him? Should I try?"

The situation with the VA Tech kids is sort of similar, very terrifying, very horrifyng, and very, very unexpected. You've got a roomful of kids, many of them not even old enough to drink a beer, bored or intent on their schoolwork, when suddenly quite literally the very last thing they ever expected to happen, happens. These aren't soldiers in a combat zone or CQC specialists, or anything at all but college kids. Most, probably all of them have never even point sparred light contact or wrestled or had any kind of combat or martial training whatsoever. Most have probably never heard a gunshot in their lives, and with no warning at all they're suddenly at the wrong end of a very short gun range with a madman in charge, and it's LOUD. Not only that, with no warning whatsoever they're seeing people get shot, abdomen, head, multiple gun wounds and lots of blood. They're experiencing the first adrenaline dump of their young lives, and are literally kids in a war zone with no warning and zero training. It's hard to fault somebody for whatever they might do in that situation.

As far as Cho, I don't think of him at all, except that he's of grotesque interest in the same way a mutated bug would be. His videos, plays and writings were bizarre, more so that even with your average school shooter. In Klebold and Harris' videos they appeared to be very much enjoying themselves while ranting and raving, and more so during their killings. They were likely depressive and sociopathic, respecively. Cho seems weirder, somehow, speaks with no emotion, a flat affect, strange word choice and sentence construction. It makes me wonder if he might have had some kind of organic brain trauma. Still, any sympathy I might be inclined to feel for him is far, far overshadowed by my sympathy for his victims.

[bigred389]

Yeah...like I said, we disagree on a tactical point. I think that's an oversimplification which ignores the realities, but I'm sure you think I'm just being a pessimist.

[bigred389]

With all due respect sir, I have put myself in harms way to defend innocent people. I've been chastised by Judges for "wreckless disregard of my own safety". On more than one occasion I have found myself unarmed against a gunman. They missed...

Sometimes there is a fine line between a so called hero and a fool.

When the gun is in your face you can act or you can die... You can recognize murderous intent or ignore it...

The choice is yours or you can let the maniac with the gun decide for you...

You won't have the luxury of weighing your options in the moment of crisis.

Well, I didn't pick you out in particular, or anybody for that matter. But I don't think everybody here was exactly put their life on the line against somebody with intent to kill. If that is not the case, please excuse me...I'm clearly in rather distinguished company.

"When the gun is in your face" is a very graphic way of putting life and death situations, but like I said, it ignores the reality of the situation.

Is the gun literally in your face?
What are the odds you are within reasonable reach of the gunman?
If you are not in reach of the gunman, how many fleeing people do you have to impede/get past in your attempt to reach the gunman?
How many MORE people will die due to the delay you cause?
How many people will simply knock you down in panic, leading you to be trampled, and leading your effort to ultimately be unsuccessful?

[bigred389]

I feel pity for them, but I do not excuse them from their actions. Crazy or not, wrong is wrong. I wish that there was a way to help everyone in a situation like that. More, I wish there was a way to end situations like that. But when a person crosses the line and starts killing people, I stop caring whether or not he's sane and I want him stopped, not helped.

As for your statement that we can't always win? You're right. But I believe we can always try. When you have a single gunman outnumbered by dozens to one, it is worth a try. I know it might mean a few people are shot - but many people were shot anyway. As a personal choice, and one that I've had to act on more than once in my lifetime, I would rather die fighting back than die under a desk. You mentioned "the odds being stacked against you." How is a college campus of hundreds (actually, of 26,000, but I'll be conservative and only count those who dealt with Cho directly) facing a single, lone gunman an illustration of the odds being stacked? If anything, it means the odds were stacked against Cho.

Well, looks like we disagree on a tactical point...

See, I think the loss of life would've been heavier had they moved TOWARDS the threat.

I'm all in favor of doing the right thing, but it's one thing when you're not given a choice(cornered), and quite another when you can live to fight another day.
Stopping to help someone who clearly needs help getting out....see that's a reasonable expectation from a fellow human being. Practically committing suicide(as I see it) in an action with low probability of success anyway is IMO NOT a reasonable thing to expect somebody else to do.

That's why we have cops and a military. THEY head towards the threat b/c it's their job. The civilian's place is to contribute to good order of society. They can't do that if they're dead.

[Tant01]

....So if you haven't really "been" there, kindly shut it on what you would have done, or what should have been done.
Face it, for all you know, you could have been hiding under the desks with the women too.

With all due respect sir, I have put myself in harms way to defend innocent people. I've been chastised by Judges for "wreckless disregard of my own safety". On more than one occasion I have found myself unarmed against a gunman. They missed...

Sometimes there is a fine line between a so called hero and a fool.

When the gun is in your face you can act or you can die... You can recognize murderous intent or ignore it...

The choice is yours or you can let the maniac with the gun decide for you...

You won't have the luxury of weighing your options in the moment of crisis.

[bigred389]

Big Red,
I have had some pretty dark periods in my life as well, and I can say that I have nothing in common with the shitbag that committed this massacre. The difference between me and him is that I recognize choice and responsibility. I could tell people that I was beaten and burned with cigars and all sorts of other heinous stuff as a kid too. That doesn't excuse the killing of innocent people. What it does is makes it clear that it's time to seek help in healthier ways.

OK Mike...I respect your opinions but I respectfully disagree:

What sort of help? A crazy person is by definition someone who's incapable of making rational decisions. Which leads to my second point:

In my opinion, too many people these days have been taught that it's okay to be a victim, and that being a victim somehow entitles a person to the pity and sympathy of others. You of all people should be even more outraged that someone did what he did, and is using the "bad childhood" card as some kind of an excuse! You overcame it! Why couldn't he?

You don't feel pity and sympathy for a kid who's abused by his caregivers? Or someone victimized by a gang on a daily basis? Who knows how this affects them mentally?
And we can't "always" win. That's not defeatism, that's fact. On any given day, anybody can lose, especially when the odds are stacked against you.

And somebody abused when they're vulnerable is going to have those problems beaten into them early on.

And we don't even know "how" people snap. What separates them from the millions of other unhappy people who manage to function anyway? It's not an excuse...it's an interesting factor if we're objectively trying to figure out how these people are made. Because they weren't born that way.

Yes, we all have choice. But we've also had formative influences growing up, both good and bad.

The "what-if," acceptance of defeat, just give the criminal what he wants and he'll go away mindset has not only made us into a bunch of cowards, it has emboldened criminals like no other thing in our society. What's wrong with telling people to stop being victims? What's wrong with saying that criminals should not be able to expect everyone to be the kind of pushover so many people seem to want to be? I think it would do us all some good to resolve to stand up for ourselves more often, even when it's a matter of life and death. No, especially when it's a matter of life and death.

You seem to be a rational guy. I don't think you're implying the people who ran from the gunman should've turned around and faced him down unarmed in a hallway instead.

Really, what's your life worth? Do you have to stand up to everything? Would you fight a mugger with a gun over $20? Really, if we could stand up to every threat, we wouldn't need professional warriors or organizations would we?

[bigred389]

As someone who is getting training, I'd think you'd agree that the more training you have, the better you can do.

Uh yes...given the opportunity. But I don't expect hand to hand training to translate to facing down somebody with a gun...particularly one that's already established distance.

Putting it in terms we all can understand, Royce Gracie doesn't enter into professional boxing matches for a reason. A century of man's existence has shown us that a gun changes the "game" quite a bit.

Go ahead and rail on me all you want. I know that if I didn't take care of a situation I was in by at least trying and doing the best I did and people died, I'd think "damn, I fucked up."

It's one thing when you realize you're cornered. Then your options are fight or void.

I'm talking about the many people who simply decided to flee...I don't think anybody should be criticizing them.
For one thing, they're probably feeling pretty shitty as it is. The last thing they need is to hear any sort of jackass who wasn't there spouting how they should've stood up to the shooter.
I don't believe people should "accept' being victims, but that's what they've become, and we should deal with that appropriately.

Second, saying you need to stand up to every threat is simply delusional. If somebody mugged me over $40, and they had a knife, I'm not ashamed to say I consider my life to be worth more than $40.
Of course, by your logic, I need to try to kick his ass even if I'm unarmed, because he might go on to greater crimes...and then I'd feel bad.

I think there needs to be more of this, and less defeatism.

You know the Soviet political officers used to complain about the same thing on the Eastern Front when unarmed conscripts didn't want to charge across minefields covered by multiple machine guns. Guess those guys were cowards too.