another school shooting

[treelizard]

I believe the education system is broken because parents are not doing their job, because parents want the job of raising their children and then don't do it, and then get upset when the teachers or schools step in/

One thing that I see as a false dichotomy is the distinction between educating children and helping children by being compassionate. I'm still in the developing stages of efficacy as a teacher, but I work in a very low income area. It sucks to be illiterate and poor. When I try to teach reading and writing, I see it as a skill that is necessary to be successful. Our high school has a dropout rate at around 64%. Kids who drop out end up on the street, in gangs and in jail. I see it as my job to get them ready for high school so they won't be overwhelmed and drop out due to academic reasons. I could be extremely compassionate and they could still drop out and end up on the streets because they cannot read and write and this is doubly true for students who have great parents who do not speak English well (let alone academic English) and do not have the means to teach them what they need to survive. I believe that teaching reading and writing, if I had to choose between the two, would be more effective than modelling compassion. This isn't to say that I don't try to structure lessons around both, stop class if necessary for a moral teaching point, take time out of my day to do what needs to be done for the children. We do not teach subjects, we teach students. However, in teaching students I know where my focus is at. They need to learn how to read and write.

As far as circumstances go, I will say that the students who need help badly are the ones most resistant to it. These kids probably (most of them) need to go to college if they want to turn their lives around. Occasionally I am asked to recommend students who have college aspirations for programs where they receive tutoring, mentoring, financial aid, admissions assistance, workshops, field trips, etc. I would be hardpressed to recommend someone who isn't trying, as much as I think it would benefit them if they were. We have an AVID (advancement via individual determination) program in my school that is research-based and has a very high success rate, but students must apply themselves. They have to really want to be there. They need to receive teacher recommendations. If they do not follow the requirements, they are kicked out so that other students on the waitlist can join. That's the way it goes.

[Ghost]

I think we need to be clear about what schools and parents are meant to be achieving .

To my mind we are meant to be producing the next generation, if we get down to basics we are a species trying to survive in a modern world. As a society we are duty bound to produce the next generation as well as we have means to do so.
Does that mean the next generation have to be grade A student, no, infact thats almost irrelevant.

Step 1 is to produce people that are a functioning part of society. Be they a road sweeper or a stock brocker. They must be able to function in our society as we function as a huge pack this is a basic need if you happen to be born human.
Step 2 is to take them to the highest level of their own ability.

Teachers appear to beleive they exist at step 2 and that parents exist at step 1.

The fact is that everyone exists at step 1 and 2.

Treelizard, i firmly believe that as a teacher you have a duty to instill discipline and help correct the behaviour of children. Your duty to teach, is to teach people to fit in to our society, what else is there to teach. Achieving grades is one part of this.

I personally have a feeling that teachers get hung up on subjects and grades when, infact, subjects and the grades achieved are only one part of what makes some a person. What on earth is the point of churning out students where only,say, 70% function in society and the other 30% end up in prison or unemployed for example.

A teacher, a school has no excuse, imo, to produce a single child of average intelligence or above that doesnt make it into college. Why should it be acceptable for any child not to make it into college if they are intelligent enough to go. Moreover, we dont even have that as a minimum, we have kids failing at the basic levels.

Of course im not saying treelizard is the problem, but treelizard, although i agree with 50% of what you are saying, you come across as lost in the system to me, and the system stinks.

Treelizard, if you still arent sure, consider how many hours a child spends at school. Now consider how much of a percentage of a childs waking life is spent at school.
Its quite clear that a child that spends that much time at school is going to have their behaviour and mindset massively influenced there.
That basic arguement is enough to know that schools and teachers ARE responsible for behaviour and the young adults that the education system final releases into the world. The school spend more time with children than the parents do in most cases, depending on how long school days are in the states i dont know.

[treelizard]

Did I say I wasn't changing a thing? Between my meetings with mentors, time spent attending workshops from the district and other places to increase my own efficacy, my reading for my coursework and reading I do on my own, I spend about 10-15 hours a week on top of an already hectic schedule so I can learn how to be more effective as a teacher on all levels. What I AM saying is that parenting takes time and energy, and it's kind of difficult to provide that time and energy to 100 students. And I find it interesting that people like Ghost think it is the school's fault if students do not attend college, regardless of whether the students do any of the coursework assigned or even show up to class. It is ridiculous. Just like the parents who say it is the probation officer's responsibility to get their kids to school. I do believe, as a friend of mine recently mentioned to me, that parents should be fined for their children's delinquent behavior. Cracking down on parents would likely be more effective than blaming teachers for students who will not do their work.

I like the 21st Century learning skills as ideas for what students need to learn to survive, especially since I want MY students to be able to compete with students in the foothills who have much better resources. I agree that everyone needs to be involved in raising children--it takes a village. I agree that behavior modification is an important part of teaching. I know very few teachers who are more interested in their subject than in the students.

[Ghost]

its partly the schools fault if the kid doesnt turn up isnt it, else why dont they want to be there?
Because they hate it? feel undervalued? perhaps ignored? or that they dont fit in?

Of course its the parents fault as well, but the direction of the thread is to analyze the schools responsibility.
From what we can see its a "its their fault not ours" mentality.
One teacher cant change this, it has to come from the government down and of course includes the parents.

Is the army responsible for the behaviour of its soldiers? or the parents of the soldiers?

Is it not true that some schools in the same areas have better performing students and better behaved students. is this not down to the school?

If school CAN make a difference, and a large one at that, then it must do all it can to make those differences. as must the parents.

[treelizard]

Ghost,
Spend some time working or volunteering in the schools, and then we'll talk. Though I am curious to know whether or not it's your school's fault that you don't know how to use apostrophes correctly.

As far as whether or not performance in schools is based solely on the schools, I offer you an extended analogy:

No Dentist Left Behind

My dentist is great! He sends me reminders so I don't forget checkups. He uses the latest techniques based on research. He never hurts me, and I've got all my teeth.

When I ran into him the other day, I was eager to see if he'd heard about the new state program. I knew he'd think it was great.

"Did you hear about the new state program to measure effectiveness of dentists with their young patients?" I said. "No," he said. He didn't seem too thrilled. "How will they do that?" "It's quite simple," I said. "They will just count the number of cavities each patient has at age 10, 14, and 18 and average that to determine a dentist's rating. Dentists will be rated as excellent, good, average, below average, and unsatisfactory. That way parents will know which are the best dentists. The plan will also encourage the less effective dentists to get better," I said. "Poor dentists who don't improve could lose their licenses to practice."

"That's terrible," he said. "What? That's not a good attitude," I said. "Don't you think we should try to improve children's dental health in this state?"

"Sure I do," he said, "but that's not a fair way to determine who is practicing good dentistry."

Why not?" I said. "It makes perfect sense to me."

"Well, it's so obvious," he said. "Don't you see that dentists don't all work with the same clientele, and that much depends on things we can't control? For example, I work in a rural area with a high percentage of patients from deprived homes, while some of my colleagues work in upper middle-class neighborhoods. Many of the parents I work with don't bring their children to see me until there is some kind of problem, and I don't get to do much preventive work. Also many of the parents I serve let their kids eat way too much candy from an early age, unlike more educated parents who understand the relationship between sugar and decay. To top it all off, so many of my clients have well water, which is untreated and has no fluoride in it. Do you have any idea how much difference early use of fluoride can make?"

"It sounds like you're making excuses," I said. "I can't believe that you, my dentist, would be so defensive. After all, you do a great job, and you needn't fear a little accountability."

"I am not being defensive!" he said. "My best patients are as good as anyone's, my work is as good as anyone's, but my average cavity count is going to be higher than a lot of other dentists because I chose to work where I am needed most."

"Don't get touchy," I said.

"Touchy?" he said. His face had turned red, and from the way he was clenching and unclenching his jaws, I was afraid he was going to damage his teeth. "Try furious! In a system like this, I will end up being rated average, below average, or worse. The few educated patients I have who see these ratings may believe this so-called rating is an actual measure of my ability and proficiency as a dentist. They may leave me, and I'll be left with only the most needy patients. And my cavity average score will get even worse. On top of that, how will I attract good dental hygienists and other excellent dentists to my practice if it is labeled below average?"

"I think you are overreacting," I said. "'Complaining, excuse-making and stonewalling won't improve dental
health'...I am quoting from a leading member of the DOC," I noted.

"What's the DOC?" he asked.

"It's the Dental Oversight Committee," I said, "a group made up of mostly lay persons to make sure dentistry in this state gets improved."

"Spare me," he said, "I can't believe this. Reasonable people won't buy it," he said hopefully.

The program sounded reasonable to me, so I asked, "How else would you measure good dentistry?" "Come watch me work," he said. "Observe my processes."

"That's too complicated, expensive and time-consuming," I said. "Cavities are the bottom line, and you can't argue with the bottom line. It's an absolute measure."

"That's what I'm afraid my parents and prospective patients will think. This can't be happening," he said despairingly.

"Now, now," I said, "don't despair. The state will help you some." "How?" he asked.

"If you receive a poor rating, they'll send a dentist who is rated excellent to help straighten you out," I said brightly.

"You mean," he said, "they'll send a dentist with a wealthy clientele to show me how to work on severe juvenile dental problems with which I have probably had much more experience? BIG HELP!"

"There you go again," I said. "You aren't acting professionally at all."

"You don't get it," he said. "Doing this would be like grading schools and teachers on an average score made on a test of children's progress with no regard to influences outside the school, the home, the community served and stuff like that. Why would they do something so unfair to dentists? No one would ever think of doing that to schools." I just shook my head sadly, but he had brightened.

"I'm going to write my representatives and senators," he said. "I'll use the school analogy. Surely they will see the point." He walked off with that look of hope mixed with fear and suppressed anger that I, a teacher, see in the mirror so often lately.

[Ghost]

Ghost,
Spend some time working or volunteering in the schools, and then we'll talk. Though I am curious to know whether or not it's your school's fault that you don't know how to use apostrophes correctly.

As far as whether or not performance in schools is based solely on the schools, I offer you an extended analogy:

No Dentist Left Behind

My dentist is great! He sends me reminders so I don't forget checkups. He uses the latest techniques based on research. He never hurts me, and I've got all my teeth.

When I ran into him the other day, I was eager to see if he'd heard about the new state program. I knew he'd think it was great.

"Did you hear about the new state program to measure effectiveness of dentists with their young patients?" I said. "No," he said. He didn't seem too thrilled. "How will they do that?" "It's quite simple," I said. "They will just count the number of cavities each patient has at age 10, 14, and 18 and average that to determine a dentist's rating. Dentists will be rated as excellent, good, average, below average, and unsatisfactory. That way parents will know which are the best dentists. The plan will also encourage the less effective dentists to get better," I said. "Poor dentists who don't improve could lose their licenses to practice."

"That's terrible," he said. "What? That's not a good attitude," I said. "Don't you think we should try to improve children's dental health in this state?"

"Sure I do," he said, "but that's not a fair way to determine who is practicing good dentistry."

Why not?" I said. "It makes perfect sense to me."

"Well, it's so obvious," he said. "Don't you see that dentists don't all work with the same clientele, and that much depends on things we can't control? For example, I work in a rural area with a high percentage of patients from deprived homes, while some of my colleagues work in upper middle-class neighborhoods. Many of the parents I work with don't bring their children to see me until there is some kind of problem, and I don't get to do much preventive work. Also many of the parents I serve let their kids eat way too much candy from an early age, unlike more educated parents who understand the relationship between sugar and decay. To top it all off, so many of my clients have well water, which is untreated and has no fluoride in it. Do you have any idea how much difference early use of fluoride can make?"

"It sounds like you're making excuses," I said. "I can't believe that you, my dentist, would be so defensive. After all, you do a great job, and you needn't fear a little accountability."

"I am not being defensive!" he said. "My best patients are as good as anyone's, my work is as good as anyone's, but my average cavity count is going to be higher than a lot of other dentists because I chose to work where I am needed most."

"Don't get touchy," I said.

"Touchy?" he said. His face had turned red, and from the way he was clenching and unclenching his jaws, I was afraid he was going to damage his teeth. "Try furious! In a system like this, I will end up being rated average, below average, or worse. The few educated patients I have who see these ratings may believe this so-called rating is an actual measure of my ability and proficiency as a dentist. They may leave me, and I'll be left with only the most needy patients. And my cavity average score will get even worse. On top of that, how will I attract good dental hygienists and other excellent dentists to my practice if it is labeled below average?"

"I think you are overreacting," I said. "'Complaining, excuse-making and stonewalling won't improve dental
health'...I am quoting from a leading member of the DOC," I noted.

"What's the DOC?" he asked.

"It's the Dental Oversight Committee," I said, "a group made up of mostly lay persons to make sure dentistry in this state gets improved."

"Spare me," he said, "I can't believe this. Reasonable people won't buy it," he said hopefully.

The program sounded reasonable to me, so I asked, "How else would you measure good dentistry?" "Come watch me work," he said. "Observe my processes."

"That's too complicated, expensive and time-consuming," I said. "Cavities are the bottom line, and you can't argue with the bottom line. It's an absolute measure."

"That's what I'm afraid my parents and prospective patients will think. This can't be happening," he said despairingly.

"Now, now," I said, "don't despair. The state will help you some." "How?" he asked.

"If you receive a poor rating, they'll send a dentist who is rated excellent to help straighten you out," I said brightly.

"You mean," he said, "they'll send a dentist with a wealthy clientele to show me how to work on severe juvenile dental problems with which I have probably had much more experience? BIG HELP!"

"There you go again," I said. "You aren't acting professionally at all."

"You don't get it," he said. "Doing this would be like grading schools and teachers on an average score made on a test of children's progress with no regard to influences outside the school, the home, the community served and stuff like that. Why would they do something so unfair to dentists? No one would ever think of doing that to schools." I just shook my head sadly, but he had brightened.

"I'm going to write my representatives and senators," he said. "I'll use the school analogy. Surely they will see the point." He walked off with that look of hope mixed with fear and suppressed anger that I, a teacher, see in the mirror so often lately.

that was a pathetically cheap shot. English usage on forums is largely irrelevant. i wont bother using punctuation and even checking my spelling or grammer. its a forum, type quickly once and post.

as we are on cheap shots, your comprehension skills need some work.
Shall we count how many times ive said its also the parents responsibility.

[jubaji]

People who sit around their dojo and theorize about techniques and approaches they've never used are kidding themselves. Like people who have all kinds of whacky ideas about how to stop a takedown but have never actually gone out and mixed it up.

[gregimotis]

People who sit around their dojo and theorize about techniques and approaches they've never used are kidding themselves. Like people who have all kinds of whacky ideas about how to stop a takedown but have never actually gone out and mixed it up.

Fantastic analogy.

[Ghost]

well considering they can make it work in other countries around the work, the analogy sucks.

[gregimotis]

well considering they can make it work in other countries around the work, the analogy sucks.

Maybe 'They' can, but 'You' can't. That's the analogy.

[Ghost]

Maybe 'They' can, but 'You' can't. That's the analogy.

that means absoultely nothing, we arent talking about the actions of one person, we are talking about "they" the collective actions of everyone. thats the whole point of the thread, and that teachers cant opt out and just say "all we are meant to do is teach"

[gregimotis]

I don't think it's a school problem at all, I think it's a larger societal problem and I've been trying to pin it down for a long time now. I think there is a disconnectedness in American culture such that people don't feel that they know each other in a neighborly sense. Americans seem to see each other more as strangers and also to view strangers as threats.

In schools it presents this way: If parents trust the teacher and principle, and the child gets suspended for fighting (for example) the parents are likely to assume the school made the right decision. They are going to expect the child to explain why he's in trouble with the school. This is the way school/parent relations once worked if my our parents are to be believed. On the other hand, if the parents start with distrust of the school and the kid gets suspended, then marching down and demanding an explanation from the principle is more the parental response, no? It an 'us versus them'.


I don't know how it was fifty years ago in America - maybe 'the good old days' weren't, but today there are a number of things undeniably wrong. Regular school shootings is just one. Another is the ubiquity of the lawyer and the civil suit. A third can be found in traffic - the light turns green and the guy behind me is laying on his horn before i can even find the clutch. People stopping cars to have fistfights (or worse). Folks don't even stop to offer each other help alongside the road, and if they do stop they are greeted with suspicion first and thanks last.

I don't know. It seems to me that Americans (I can't speak for anybody else) don't trust each other well enough to work together. Nobody seems to want to give the benefit of the doubt to anyone. Lawyers have replaced handshakes and the television has replaced the social club.

[npk9]

To specifically address the shooting. I don't see why we haven't addressed the shooter themselves. Maybe if we look into the "psyche" of what lead up the event then we could address the other issues. I believe that the members of this forum can look beyond what CNN has already addressed.

It seems that a number of shooters felt that they were suppressed in one way or another - being at the bottom of the student body hierarchy. Maybe being bullied for a number of years and not being able to do anything about it. Then find out that dealing with the situation with a firearm levels the playing field. Pent up rage that doesn't have a healthy outlet (to state the obivous). Feeling repressed that the even if you were to fight back a'la fist fight that the school would just punish you as much as the bully and then the bully would just get you at the end anyway. Going home and feeling that if you told your parents you would be labeled as a "Loser" at school. Even if you told your parents - would they care? (They may or may not - but to the students perspective what would it be?). Of course being at the bottom of the hierarchy doesn't necessarly indicate as such but I would be more specific as to not having a support group of friends.

I maybe pointing the obivous but I do feel students perspective needs to be addressed before any movement can be made.

[jubaji]

I have never served in the military, but I have every right to discuss military issues and national defense. HOWEVER, if a combat veteran tells me what its like to fight under fire I don't really have the means to contradict him. If he goes further and tries to insist on certain political conclusions based on that experience then we can debate the logic of such conclusions as may be raised. If he says something patently absurd such that any rational person would not believe him, then I should question him. BUT, in terms of his experience of actually functioning under fire, I don't have a lot to say.

[jubaji]

Now, if you want to fix the schools just take a look at our system of HIGHER education, which is by far the best in the world. Find out what differences exist between the two 'systems' and you'll have an idea of what might very likely work.

Unfortunately, it would be very unlikely to be politically acceptable to a large portion of the country for reasons good and ill...