Street Reality VS. "Other" Realities

[kingoftheforest]

Lets be clear on my point, as this is a topic that will easily stray into endless variables of context. I'm not arguing against the worth of weapons, I am arguing FOR empty hand. This is a "pro" debate, not a con.

I read all the time, on this forum, that you need to get armed, that weapons is where its at, and that those without weapons will come out a very sorry second. Weapons dominate the mindset whenever the topic of "real" self protection comes up, and H2H is derrided as a last resort, a largely fruitless exercise against the modern combatant.

I'm saying thats wrong, and I'm saying again that it is the opinion of those who hold no real faith in their empty hand skills, and I'm also saying that by and large it is a mentality they have been infected with by instructors who pass on their own insecurities.

I don't tell streetfighting stories so I'm not going to endorse my view with "once when I was.....". My strength of opinion will either stand up on it's own, or it won't.

And its Michael.

Well I can and have on several occasion busted a coconut with my bare hands. I drill endlessly in H2H in class. I practice empty hand forms and I hit the heavy bag and the focus mitts regularly. I have the utmost confidence in my H2H. My instructors has repeated on several occasions

"If you cannot defeat someone with an empty hand ,a weapon is not going to help you."

I make it a point to be effective in my empty hand skills but I also carry a knife everywhere I legally can. I have not been given the mentality that you speak of by my instructor but I follow the 7 P's

Prior
Proper
Planning
Prevents
Piss
Poor
Performance

I don't agree with trading stories either because at the end of the day that's all they are, stories.

[Guest]

Well I can and have on several occasion busted a coconut with my bare hands.

you know what, thats just fucking cool.

[TTEscrima]

Lets be clear on my point, as this is a topic that will easily stray into endless variables of context. I'm not arguing against the worth of weapons, I am arguing FOR empty hand. This is a "pro" debate, not a con.

I read all the time, on this forum, that you need to get armed, that weapons is where its at, and that those without weapons will come out a very sorry second. Weapons dominate the mindset whenever the topic of "real" self protection comes up, and H2H is derrided as a last resort, a largely fruitless exercise against the modern combatant.

I'm saying thats wrong, and I'm saying again that it is the opinion of those who hold no real faith in their empty hand skills, and I'm also saying that by and large it is a mentality they have been infected with by instructors who pass on their own insecurities.

I don't tell streetfighting stories so I'm not going to endorse my view with "once when I was.....". My strength of opinion will either stand up on it's own, or it won't.

And its Michael.

Boy the police sure could save a lot of money if they didn't waste their time and efforts with weapons training. Seems like Lee Murray had decent empty hand skills but he got stabbed twice in the same month, Alex Gong certainly had plenty of ring savvy but it didn't stop bullets, Ryan Gracie was using a knife when mugging old men, but when he put the knife away to steal the bike he got bashed in the head with a helmet and woke up dead in jail. Insecurities or just the ability to think outside the ring, I mean box?

[Guest]

Boy the police sure could save a lot of money if they didn't waste their time and efforts with weapons training. Seems like Lee Murray had decent empty hand skills but he got stabbed twice in the same month, Alex Gong certainly had plenty of ring savvy but it didn't stop bullets, Ryan Gracie was using a knife when mugging old men, but when he put the knife away to steal the bike he got bashed in the head with a helmet and woke up dead in jail.

Oh.....so? A few nice stories there. Was my point ever that people aren't killed by weapons?

[TTEscrima]

Oh.....so? A few nice stories there. Was my point ever that people aren't killed by weapons?

Nah you just said people who trained in them were insecure in their h2h skills. Seems to me Murry, Gong and Gracie were over overconfident in their ring skills and lacking in weapon training. It's not that people who carry weapons are insecure, it's far more likely you live in country that doesn't trust it's citizens with weapons and you have to tell yourself they aren't needed, they aren't needed over and over again and thus you're ranting against them.

[Tant01]

Tell me about it...?

....oh I've had a corker Tant good buddy, sometimes I wish I did carry a gun!

OHHH NOOO!!!

You know... I'm really glad I don't have a gun in the car sometimes.

I'm not a CCW carry guy... I play and work with knives and my EDC is a small 1" blade karambit (banding cutter, FARM tool) When I'm at work I usually have a straight blade "hunting knife" or small Bowie style blade on my belt...

I leave the pistol at home. Of course it's NOT EXACTLY legal here to have loaded weapons in your home... It's out of reach of the little ones but easily within arms reach when I open the front door...

I have a big antique shotgun hanging over the door but it's non functional...
(In case I need a club)

I've always fairly been the "hands on" guy. I'd way rather break bones to disable or choke some idiot out cold than shoot or cut anyone. Fact is I'd rather hit someone with my gun than shoot them but a deadly weapon is a deadly weapon... It's my damn conscience! You know? the whole deal with blood on my hands...? :::Sigh::: Yeah, I'd rather not...

The problem is other idiots. Maybe I'm too easily provoked or NOT but I have such little tolerance for aggressive or reckless idiots sometimes.

Ahhhh... deep breath. Exhale... Relax.

[Guest]

"It's not that people who carry weapons are insecure, it's far more likely you live in country that doesn't trust it's citizens with weapons and you have to tell yourself they aren't needed, they aren't needed over and over again and thus you're ranting against them"

you know, the great thing about internet forums is that there is an audit trail i.e. you can read people's previous posts.

Have a look at the part I wrote about this beng a "pro" for empty hand, and not a "con" for weapons. Then maybe we can chat some more.

[Wilks123]

Weapons will always give the person wielding it an advantage weather it be physiological or just an advantage in the damage it can cause, but isant it always better to know something about how to defend yourself with your fists then nothing at all.

People would usually think twice about attacking you if you pulled out a knife as well because they know the damage it can cause. I want to learn martial arts to build my confidence up. So i at least believe i would have a fighting chance if i got in a bad situation.

[Tant01]

I was there...

"It's not that people who carry weapons are insecure, it's far more likely you live in country that doesn't trust it's citizens with weapons and you have to tell yourself they aren't needed, they aren't needed over and over again and thus you're ranting against them"

you know, the great thing about internet forums is that there is an audit trail i.e. you can read people's previous posts.

Have a look at the part I wrote about this beng a "pro" for empty hand, and not a "con" for weapons. Then maybe we can chat some more.

I saw that...

And I tend to agree with having empty hand skills (primarily)

[Guest]

I want to learn martial arts to build my confidence up. So i at least believe i would have a fighting chance if i got in a bad situation.

And that, my friend, is an outstanding point.

The vast majority of martial artists I have come across don't want to build your confidence. They want to infect you with a paranoia that aorund every corner is a knife wielding assassin, and that your training ain't going to mean jack shit unless you also become that person. It becomes a downward spiral of fear, insecurity, and the wrong motivation to train.

Find a healthy, athletic and positive training environment where people talk about becoming stronger, fitter, faster, smarter and happier. Your confidence will grow, I assure you.

[Guest]

I saw that...

And I tend to agree with having empty hand skills (primarily)

Dude, that was for TT

[TTEscrima]

"It's not that people who carry weapons are insecure, it's far more likely you live in country that doesn't trust it's citizens with weapons and you have to tell yourself they aren't needed, they aren't needed over and over again and thus you're ranting against them"

you know, the great thing about internet forums is that there is an audit trail i.e. you can read people's previous posts.

Have a look at the part I wrote about this beng a "pro" for empty hand, and not a "con" for weapons. Then maybe we can chat some more.

That would be the hands over the ears technique where if you don't like the the way things are you just choose to ignore them. I never said proper instruction in the use of the body and brain weren't essential. You said people who also train with weapons are insecure and it's the fault of their teachers for passing on their insecurities. You might also note this is the urban forum, NOT the MMA forum so limiting the discussion and your mind to empty hand is unrealistic. Bad people exist, it's a fact and many of them are interested in more than a macho squabble at the bar. People are stabbed in malls while pissing at the urinal, women are raped for simply being women and in reach of a nutcase, kids get shot by active shooters in school, saying that weapons training is for the insecure is unrealistic and untrue. If you want to live and post in a weapon free zone, go ahead, it's called the MMA forum.

[jubaji]

Ooh, another Boringspear technique! Telling people what forums to post in!!!

[Tant01]

That would be the hands over the ears technique where if you don't like the the way things are you just choose to ignore them. I never said proper instruction in the use of the body and brain weren't essential. You said people who also train with weapons are insecure and it's the fault of their teachers for passing on their insecurities. You might also note this is the urban forum, NOT the MMA forum so limiting the discussion and your mind to empty hand is unrealistic. Bad people exist, it's a fact and many of them are interested in more than a macho squabble at the bar. People are stabbed in malls while pissing at the urinal, women are raped for simply being women and in reach of a nutcase, kids get shot by active shooters in school, saying that weapons training is for the insecure is unrealistic and untrue. If you want to live and post in a weapon free zone, go ahead, it's called the MMA forum.

Sometimes the country we live in will limit the options for weapons...

[Guest]

TT,

I have noticed in your posts a clear oblivion to the point of view being expressed, if it doesn't support or relate to your agenda, so I'm probably wasting my time saying again that this isn't against weapons, but for the strength of empty hand. I'll try once again to clarify.

The people in martial arts who base their entire approach to self-protection on weapons, to the detriment and constant dismissal of empty hand, are on the whole in my experience insecure and unconfident about their empty hand. Its not because they are good with a knife, its because they are fucking useless without it. I don't really know how to break it down any easier than that.

What I will say, loud and clear for you, is that my opinions are not to be restricted to a certain forum because you choose to pigeon hole my point of view. If I have something to say on your thread, I'll say it.