"combatives"

[Tant01]

Some years ago a good friend of mine said that so called "combatives" would be the next big FAD in the MA industry.

Today I noticed "Gracie Combatives" is a registered trademark...

Imagine THAT?

"... Although Gracie Jiu-Jitsu consists of over 600 techniques, studies of the fights conducted by members of the Gracie Family have shown that 36 techniques have been used more often and with greater success than all the other techniques combined. Soon after these studies were conducted the Gracies realized that the fastest way to effectively prepare any new student to defend themselves against a larger, untrained opponent was to focus entirely on teaching them these 36 essential techniques. This realization led to the birth of the Gracie Combatives course. The techniques featured in this course have been adopted by the U.S. Army, Navy Seals, Secret Service, FBI, and countless other law enforcement agencies around the world".

Here we go (again)

[jubaji]

Strong Marketingfu

[Garland]

Some years ago a good friend of mine said that so called "combatives" would be the next big FAD in the MA industry.

Here we go (again)

It has been for a long time.
Overall the quality of the fads are going up, I think.

[Tant01]

Lol

It has been for a long time.
Overall the quality of the fads are going up, I think.

Anything less than ten years out of date is still new to us slower wood folks...

How long has Gracie Combatives been sold to the public like this?

Look... you can get your blue belt in combatives now...???

Whup...

[Garland]

Fairbairn/Applegate
Carl Cestari
Charles Nelson
Kelly McCann/Jim Grover
Jim Wagner
Chris Clugston
Paul Kipp
Peyton Quinn
Jeff Cooper and Massad Ayoob
SCARS
Senshido
Defendo and Defendu
some forms of Silat, i.e. silat mumbai
Krav Maga/ Haganah
and Systema

have all been sold as "combatives" for YEARS
Even Sanda and Sambo have been marketed like that.
Now look at MCMAP and the old LINE training... Frank Cucci's stuff, and even (especially) Vunak's stuff have been sold as Military hand to hand...look at our old poster Demi Barbito...!
Shiv Works...Pekiti Tirsia, Sayoc even... and what about Erik Paulson's COMBAT submission wrestling? (not taking anything away from anyone...CSW is awesome, and I am a huge fan of leo gaje, southnarc, tom kier, and paul vunak...and even Demi, although I believed we had an argument here because I thought some of his statements implied he thought he was better than the rest of the inosanto lineage.

American COMBAT judo?

CQC, CQB...they're all buzzwords.

They stuff is all marketed the same way, but the quality varies...as well as the background of what *exactly* is being taught.

Shit...you can market "dirty boxing" as combatives like Bob Orlando or Matt Hatmaker. God knows the stuff Ron Balicki put out for Cold Steel is the same general order.
Even the Dog Brothers are doing stuff with Gabe Suarez! It's a GOOD thing!

They all have merit and worth to some extent...I mean, nothings "right" or "wrong" if it works, right?

This has been going on for the better part of the CENTURY...it's no surprise that the Gracies have picked up on it...it's a GREAT marketing idea, strip things down to the basic fundamentals, and the high percentage...and sell THAT instead of the whole system and the whole tool box.

The Gracies are the most successful marketing force to hit martial arts since Bruce Lee...of course they'd realize that once they hit global commercial success with the first UFC and the start of contemporary MMA as we now know it in the US (with little thought to the first Vale Tudo matches in Brazil, Shooto and Shootfighting in Japan, the crazy shit in the Phillipines and the Eastern European fight circuit around the same time...all with similar techniques being employed) they would figure out that this was the next logical progression. They're tacticians...and it shows in every aspect of their game, be it in the fight world or in the business world. These days RBSD is practically cross-listed as combatives, some of the stuff is ACTUAL combatives, some of it is just good marketing of a system, and some of it is complete garbage. It's up to the consumer to be savvy...such is life, eh?

And you wonder why executives read Sun Tsu and Musashi.

[DJColdfusion]

I am not a Rorion fan. Anyone that will sue family members (named "Gracie" for teaching "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu" has a few issues IMHO. However, the Gracie combatives stuff has been around for better than a decade. I don't know when the term was trademarked but its not a "new" thing.

In general, I agree with the idea behind the thread that everyone and everything is trying to cash in on the "combatives" idea. Its really not much different than the TMA instructors who claimed to learn super secret techniques from super-human instructors. Many people identified with the "tradition" and mysticism that many TMAs market themselves as being a part of. Now, with the world as it is, people are identifying with another cultural icon, the military, and are gravitating towards what they believe will give them the ability to protect themselves.

Many in the industry are little more than privateers trying to cash in wherever they can . . .

[Guest]

As Marketing is my job, I have always stood back and marvelled at the world of martial arts advertising. More than any industry I can think of, even including fashion and entertainment, it is the most unbelievable crock of festering horseshit I have ever seen. Every once in a while I pick one of the mags and have a look at the adverts, and it just astonishes me what people actually get away with.

"I can teach you how to fight like a Ninja SAS Thai Boxing Assassin BJJ Killer type guy....and all this, from the comfort of your armchair! With my 67 DVD home study set you'll learn how to kill a man with a rotating bow tie, and then you'll screw his wife, guaranteed! Order now and receive a new larger pair of underpants, because when you've finished my course, your new big dick is gonna need it!"

or

"Our streets have become a warzone. The next time you step out of your front door, the enemy is will be waiting for you, you have to ask yourself how ready are you? If you haven't trained on my program, then you aren't ready, in fact you're not a man, I think you probably wear dresses and suck cock. Give me all your money, I'll tell you some stories about bar fights, shout at you loads and teach you some shit boxing, then you too will be a streetfighter. So to summarise - give me all your money."

You know what the sad thing is? It works. You know whats even sadder? The reason it works is because this is exactly what most people in martial arts want to hear.


If I had to write a real martial arts advert, it would probably read like this:

"You'll be given an athletic base first and foremost, whether you like it or not. If you'd like to learn how to protect yourself thats no problem, its actually pretty quick and straightforward, and I'm sorry but there aren't any secrets or magic involved. If you want to be a streetfighter or a knifefighter then go buy a knife and sod off to a street somewhere and have a fight. Yes I do teach Military and Police programs, but you aren't a Solider or a Cop, so stop wearing combats and carrying batons, grow up and learn how to fight. Are you going to get hit? Oh hell yeah, lots, but you'll get to hit me lots too. What do you need to do to be an instructor? Be an instructor, thats what. How long will it take? Years probably. How much do I charge? I don't charge anything, just come down to the gym or to my house and lets mix it up, but you have to help me train too. Thats the deal. So, you interested? No of course not, you've just ordered your 67 DVD home study set. Well good luck, I hope you enjoy baggy underwear."

I'm pleased to say that in a martial arts sense, my marketing sucks

[kingoftheforest]

On a pirates shoulder.

Funny about marketing, because I was told I would have to lose my ego. Train everyday learn to eat right and carry on a physical fitness regime or none of the above would matter.

I was told that if I trained and kept my awareness up that I would be less likely to be in a fight on the street. I was told fighting was for self defense only and that petty squabbles were for children and immature idiots out trying to prove something.

I was told pay what I could afford even if some periods of time that meant $0 as long as I could prove I had been training everyday.

I was told all the shit you see on T.V. and movies was just that shit. There was no mystical magical or supernatural B.S. involved in learning or studying martial arts.

I've learned more about fighting, being an adult, and have matured more from studying under this so much more than I have from any DVD or McDojo I studied with before.

And all this from OMG you guessed it BoarSpear.

Sun Tzu says if "You are in the majority you are most likely wrong"

I agree. Marketing is a way to make money. If you're in it for money you're in it for the wrong reason. Having lots of money makes you soft. Soft people aren't warriors and martial arts and fighting are what warriors do.

Street thugs learn to fight show they can show off to their friends and pump up their egos. Athletics only pertain to martial arts because you can't be 10lbs of monkey shit in a 5lb bag and be taken seriously. If you train on a daily basis you will have a better physique, if you sit on your ass all day and count your money or watch your DVD's and don't train you'll be the aforementioned bag of monkey crap.

If you don't train you may be able to read and parrot ideas but when someone asks you a real question or presents a technical problem you'll only make yourself look like an ass when you can't answer.

[jubaji]

Sun Tzu says if "You are in the majority you are most likely wrong"

Where did he say that?

[Tant01]

How slow am I?

...
How long has Gracie Combatives been sold to the public like this?

....

How long has GC been a Regestered Trademark?

[kingoftheforest]

The fact that everything you have listed is past tense enough to be proof itself.

And maybe you could show your maturity by not derailing threads to call people out in the open forum.

As you said you guilty of being a fit thrower too, especially when people call you out.

You also throw fits when people point out what you are clearly saying is B.S. the only difference is you have the ability to ban people or lock threads when you are show as being immature and inflating your ego on the boards.


And pointing out your hypocrisy and nonsense may be throwing a fit to you and the cronies and lackeys you have on here (which encompass much of the forum) but there are people who don't agree with you.

I've learned that when you claim you're not looking for a fight that's exactly what you are looking for.

So let me show my maturity right now by placing you on ignore and don't expect me to respond to you cause that's what adults do.

[kingoftheforest]

Guess I'll have to do it manually since I can't place you on ignore.

bye bye.

[jubaji]

LOL! Too funny! The non-pushing-button button has been pushed and the non-fit fit has been thrown. Very high level stuff.


My how you have changed! I guess braiding Boring's hair all day has really brought you inner piece!


...or not.

[Tant01]

How long has GC been a Regestered Trademark?

No one's going to point out my spelling error?

*Registered trademark since when again?

[Tant01]

Off topic!

When did Gracie trademark his so called "combatives"???

And since KOTF is off on another hissy fit I'll just kindly ask him to clarify what he means (exactly) by BS (Boar Spear) helping him become a real human being?

Is it that it developes a sense of responsibility...? Having kids will do that too.

Does art become your "way of being" your way of "doing" things? Does the physical destruction give you an appreciation for well being? Do words frustrate you to the point that you can no longer function rationally? Is that "mature"???

How easily we resort to the frog brain by PERCEIVED threats! Reality check? You're READING me.

No harm at all outside of some emotional attachment we have placed on VIRTUAL reality???

Think about it?

Keep things in perspective... Mike is just some pretty boy GI on the Internet, right?

You've never shook his hand? Looked him in the eye? Met his wife and kid?

You don't know jack about me but I consider you (and Boar) my e-buddies. I would never "attack" you personally over some internet forum...

How have you grown as civilized hominid at the hands of your master?

Seriously, do tell?