Mugging in NYC

[Tant01]

Yeah but Helio says....

......

....I think it confirms a very good point that Uke seems to continuously express on this forum. That MMA fighters will use their MMA to fight, be it in the ring or faced with a knife wielding attacker. MMA is not designed to equip you with the sufficient knowledge or ability to face those kinds of 'street' situations.

"If someone points a gun at you, of course, you will be scared. But jiu-jutsu gives me the equivalent of a bullet proof shield. It protects me from head to toe, plus it gives me the ability to take a gun away."


Helio Gracie. via Doug Jeffrey. (From the April '05 issue of GRAPPLING magazine) ............

This still cracks me up.... LOL

[Uke]

Hello again Uke,

As I said I didn't mean that it was too extreme to be a realistic situation, I just meant that surely there are some situations that you cannot escape no matter your training.

May be in situations where you our outnumbered and facing weapons your salvation may lie in the other things that a RBSD class may teach you like awareness and prevention etc. May be an RBSD practitioner might have more of a chance to spot the danger and run or diffuse the situation. And if it comes to a fight then as you said you will fall back on your training.

Do you see what you're doing, Dan? You've already come to the conclusion that RBSD does those things but you're holding on to the possibility that "playing tag" could be a serious and viable method of dealing with imminent death ... because that's what a man waving a knife or gun is. Make no mistakes about that. You are still writing in "maybe" when you have already seemed to understand that there are different tools for different jobs. The "maybe" is just an attempt to keep an argument alive that has no legs.

You are correct in one regard, Dan. No one has ever stated that modern RBSD creates a bullet proof shield from which you are nearly invulnerable like the Gracies have about BJJ. No one can escape every situation. However that doesn't mean that being well trained won't dramatically improve your odds. Prevention and awareness only go but so far as you should have read in this story.

RBSD is a close quarter expedient solution. That's it. Nothing more and nothing less. If it comes down to a fight you've done something wrong or relied on a sport method like muay thai or boxing to bring about a swift end. What happened in this story was a murder attempt, where the so-called victim wound up quickly neutralizing all immediate threats. That isn't a fight in the sense that you think of combat. That was a defensive execution of lethal force. Before any of the muggers could figure out what to do next they were already bleeding on the ground, hoping that help would come to save them.

I watched a very interesting programme on TV. It had a taste of commercial bullshit but had some good points too. It was called Human Weapon. It was basically about a MMA fighter and a wrestler who went round the world trying out martial arts. The most relevant one to this discussion was an episode on Krav Maga. In this episode they had a man attack the MMA guy with a rubber knife attempting to 'stab' him. As Uke said, and I agree, people who train MMA, Muay Thai etc will use this to get out of a physical and hostile situation. This clip confirmed that idea and the MMA guy tried to kickbox his way out of the situation and failed, getting 'stabbed' 11 times.

YouTube - Human Weapon Krav Maga

I've seen all of the Human Weapons, but do you notice how many young people need video clips and such to prove a point? I'm not picking on you, Dan_The_Man. I'm just saying that common sense isn't enough for this visual video generation. They need it to be validated by vid clips and tv shows. I can understand the concept of seeing it in action to put a stamp on it, but then it became a matter of actually requiring a video in order for people to be able to move forward. That's were the folly begins. But yeah ... The KM episode of Human Weapon confirmed what I have been writing.

Have a look for yourself. What it looks like to me is that he tries to keep at a distance with a front kick then when the attacker gets close he clinches! Not the best idea when your facing a guy with a knife but something that surely reflects how his 10 years of MMA training influenced his method of defending against a knife.

You'll execute how you practice. Can't say it enough. Beware of those who try and sell you on the idea that you can be a lion when you've spent your entire life training to be a lamb.

I think it confirms a very good point that Uke seems to continuously express on this forum. That MMA fighters will use their MMA to fight, be it in the ring or faced with a knife wielding attacker. MMA is not designed to equip you with the sufficient knowledge or ability to face those kinds of 'street' situations.

When you speak/write about the facts, they don't ever change. I only seem repetitive because I'm forced to repeat basic and rudimentary principles to those who continuously try to call the aforementioned lamb "lion-like".

And the point about MMA is correct Dan_The_Man, but it doesn't just apply to MMA. It applies to any TMA that refuses to modernize its principles for today's world. People aren't carrying swords, spears or riding horses anymore. Yet there are schools that require students to learn kata and forms that are based on defending against sword and spear attacks, as well as dealing with soldiers on horses.

Many people don't even realize that many of the high flying kicks in tae kwon do come from the Hwarang, who actually had to fight soldiers on horseback. Those techniques were practical back then, but who but fcuking Canadian Mounties are coming at you on horseback nowadays? The art of the Samurai sword greatly influenced kendo and aikido, but even in Japan the sword had been outlawed since the 1800's. The art of the Japanese sword is largely predicated on your commitment to your stroke. That's why aikido practitioners have fits dealing with western boxers, which is the most common method used by muggers.

The point is and has always been that one should live in the times, and in doing so he can live in reality. Those who root themselves in tradition or envelope themselves in the illusion that the police or some other agency will be there to protect us or help us have been sucked into the whole "civilized utopia" propaganda. People get killed by knife and gun shot wounds every single day. The news doesn't report every casualty because if they did, they believe that people would begin arming themselves and training for the very survival that they work so hard to convince us that we supposedly don't have to worry about. Citizens who help other citizens in violent crisis are called vigilantes and locked up. People are put on hold when they call 911. Cops are paid better than school teachers but often times wind up shooting each other. And when they do finally manage to hit a target it winds up being 40 times and the man winds up being unarmed.

Then when you get accosted by three assholes with knives and are left having to use the "politically correct" competition sports you've been practicing for years in hopes of just seeing your wife again ... and you realize then and only then that:

Your coach lied to you about you being able to "take care of yourself". So many coaches exaggerate the effectiveness of what they teach in order to keep people from looking elsewhere for their needs. They fancy themselves "one stop shops".

Your dominance in competition doesn't mean squat when your ass is on the line, because the only way you know how to nullify his efforts is by dragging him to the ground and looking for submission attempts. His two friends will have something to say about that. This doesn't just apply to MMA/BJJ guys. It also applies across the board to traditional martial artists, who also revert back to toughmen once they get hit.

All your sparring and endurance training won't stop the adrenaline rush from exhausting you within a minute or two.

And in the end, when people reflect on how it was explained to them that what they practice does not equip them to end an altercation quickly like the one in the news story, they can no longer pretend that they didn't know better.

[Uke]

"If someone points a gun at you, of course, you will be scared. But jiu-jutsu gives me the equivalent of a bullet proof shield. It protects me from head to toe, plus it gives me the ability to take a gun away."


Helio Gracie. via Doug Jeffrey. (From the April '05 issue of GRAPPLING magazine) ............

This still cracks me up.... LOL

PS I now hate Tant01 for stealing the thunder from the Gracie jab I had in my post. I was typing for crying out loud and BAM! ... there it was when I submitted.

[Dan_The_Man]

Do you see what you're doing, Dan? You've already come to the conclusion that RBSD does those things but you're holding on to the possibility that "playing tag" could be a serious and viable method of dealing with imminent death ... because that's what a man waving a knife or gun is. Make no mistakes about that. You are still writing in "maybe" when you have already seemed to understand that there are different tools for different jobs. The "maybe" is just an attempt to keep an argument alive that has no legs.

I don’t really understand what you mean by "playing tag". I think I didn’t quite grasp your analogy.

And the only reason that I use "maybe" a lot is because I am merely an amateur that is speculating on all of this. I’m not going to pass my views off as concrete.

May be in situations where you our outnumbered and facing weapons your salvation may lie in the other things that a RBSD class may teach you like awareness and prevention etc. May be an RBSD practitioner might have more of a chance to spot the danger and run or diffuse the situation. And if it comes to a fight then as you said you will fall back on your training.

"maybe" is just an attempt to keep an argument alive that has no legs

I thought that learning some decent RBSD would be better at teaching you how to spot, interpret and avoid a hostile situation better than a BJJ or Muay Thai class would. The "maybe" is there because I have never been to a RBSD class and am judging that purely on reading. But is that really an argument that has no legs?

I'm not having a go at you or anything Uke, I'm just continuing the debate :P

[Uke]

I don’t really understand what you mean by "playing tag". I think I didn’t quite grasp your analogy.

That's what most competing is: playing tag. You hit me, then I hit you back. Most times in sport competition the game seldom ends with the first tag or first exchange.

And the only reason that I use "maybe" a lot is because I am merely an amateur that is speculating on all of this. I’m not going to pass my views off as concrete.

I didn't think you were, Dan. I'm simply saying that you found you evidence while watching the Human Weapon show. It served as a unbiased source for you to see and hear the same information I've been giving you to a certain degree.

I thought that learning some decent RBSD would be better at teaching you how to spot, interpret and avoid a hostile situation better than a BJJ or Muay Thai class would. The "maybe" is there because I have never been to a RBSD class and am judging that purely on reading. But is that really an argument that has no legs?

Understood. I respect that you would write "maybe" for that reason, Dan. And what I meant as far as the argument having no legs was that many of the opposing arguments presented weren't based on anything but pure opinion, which gave those points no legs to stand on. It also meant that I was passed debating points that have already been made.

RBSD systems put focus on those aspects of awareness and avoidance, but I have yet to see a competition art that does. Some TMA's do as well, but they were the RBSD arts of their own time, and avoidance and awareness hasn't changed much over the years. In fact they may have been better at avoidance and awareness hundreds of years ago back when people actually had to learn to defend themselves and survive off the land. Competitive sport combat doesn't bother itself with elements outside the ring(weapons, multiple attackers,etc). Their focus is getting their fighter ready to go however many rounds and win under the rules of the event. They are awesome at what they do, but only at what they do.

That's all I meant.

I'm not having a go at you or anything Uke, I'm just continuing the debate :P

That's fine. Good luck with your training, Dan.

[kingoftheforest]

Uke first and foremost, awesome thread.

Now here's the kick in the ass............you're trying to explain rocket science to monkeys.

You're getting the same response, a lot of confused looks and lots of shit flinging.


But we commend you for your efforts.

[Hardball]

It's nearly impossible to post without mentioning the last several years of nonsense that was spouted, there are still people with Brewers "challenge" etc in their siglines so forbidding people to mention him when others still have his name in every post they make is an odd choice.

Gone. Thanks for pointing that out!!

[kingoftheforest]

When Brewer mentioned Boar after he himself banned Boar and I complained I got told to stop being a whiny bitch!

So here to all you people who piss and moan because Screwer "aint here to defend himnself".

STOP BEING WHINY BITCHES.


Now back to the subject at hand already in progress.

[Uke]

Okay Uke...just because I thought it was low to mention Brewer without him being able to defend his opinions... DOES NOT MEAN that I am Brewer or share his beliefs. Also my beliefs are MY OWN and do not necessarily reflect those of anyone I train alongside or have trained with.

You obviously have juxtaposed the two of us for some odd reason, and have missed my main point, which is simply- THERE IS NO SILVER BULLET WHEN KNIVES ARE INVOLVED...in fact...I doubt that any amount of any type of training could prepare somebody for a serious stabbing...and at the very most you are simply raising your odds of survival slightly.

In fact...most HONEST RBSD guys agree with me on that point. If you want I will take the time to find it in print, since that is what you apparently seem to value most. As for experience...I have seen two stabbings with my own eyes, and dealt with the aftermath of three.

What I find interesting is that you seem to think that I think combat sports will be any more effective...which I never even alluded to, EVER! In fact we agree firmly on several points, which for some reason you seem to miss...
The only up that combat sport practitioners have in an encounter involving a weapon over RBSD practitioners...is that most of the combat athletes can put foot to pavement in the other direction alot faster and keep it up longer.

RBSD guys die less often in knife encounters than combat athletes acording to the news? Come on! What is a more memorable and publishable piece ; "ex-champ Ego McGee got stabbed by a drunk fan" or "Joe-schmoe knifed over his wallet in an alley" ? Really??

And as for your bragging rights over who's been in more violent situations... you CAN HAVE IT. I avoid conflict like the plague...if you pride yourself on picking fights or being in them...well...that's a rather severe issue you'll have to live with.

Could you bet your life that you could take a knife away or disable a knifer? Are you that confident...? To me...that sounds like insanity.

I agree you do what you have to do to survive an edged weapons encounter...but ENGAGING somebody is a last ditch attempt at this.
I carry a knife. I know how to deploy it and haved deployed one for "self defense". I know how to use it.

Whatever type of individual you are trying to typify with your analogies to "Billy Blanks wannabees" ... I am a poor example.

I wonder how many of the people you are attempting to ridicule cross train in some sort of edged weapons training or firearms training and walk around armed???



And if I am guilty of hubris or ignorance...it is just another thing WE have in COMMON.

Throughout your entire post, all you offer is opinion based on more opinion. That's why it’s apparent to everyone here that what you have to say is book learned rather then apparent from experience. Your statistics and theories mean nothing here, and your doubt isn't even reasonable. Your doubt is just cynical for the purposes of covering up the fact that you haven't been exposed to serious violence outside of frat parties and friendly gatherings where a pushing match breaks out.

No one ever claimed that anything was guaranteed or a "silver bullet". The man in this story can tell you that. HE GOT STABBED IN THE GUT, SHERLOCK!!!! No one is completely safe and like Tant01(*groan* he beat me to it) pointed out RBSD doesn't make claims like Helio Gracie's statement likening BJJ to a bullet proof shield. RBSD doesn't grant you "spider sense" either. It does however train you to move passed panic, execute finishing force in the most expedient manner, survey the situation and get the hell out of there. In the time it took the man in this incident to finish his attackers and call for help you'd either be laid out bleeding or still tae-bo kicking and punching at three men who were armed.

Most RBSD "guys" that you've had contact with might tell you anything. The RBSD pioneers that I have known throughout my life told and taught me what I am telling you.

I don't think that you think anything, Garland. I responded to what you wrote, which was a representation of what you think. I don't have to assume what you know to make certain statements. The ignorant things you write tell on you like a bratty little brother. And that's not me calling you a name. That's me recognizing that you write about what little you do know and then fill in the obvious holes with your own assumptions about training you've never had.

And yes RBSD practitioners die less. My entire time spent in the martial arts community has been around men who had high rank in other arts like muay thai, BJJ, kung fu, karate, jujitsu, judo, aikido, boxing, escrima, tae kwon do ... and they all come to my teachers after being in a street altercation that made them realize that what they had spent years learning didn't prepare them for what they faced that night of awakening.

In fact, in most noteworthy RBSD systems, more than 50-60% of the white belts have black belts in other systems! They don't just wander off the street and say "Make me a street fighter". They all have been placed in situations that forced them to admit to themselves that although the loved what they did for years, it wasn't made to keep them alive or even safe when it counted. No one would spend 10 years practicing a system in an effort to master and compete in it and then just completely abandon that training all of a sudden in favor of something else if that new training didn't offer something totally different that appealed to their need to accomplish an end.

I don't have to bet my life, Garland. I have defended against and taken away knives. I didn't get cut either, but then again that wasn't guaranteed. Getting cut wasn't my biggest worry nor should it be anyone’s. Where I got cut before I could finish was. If you're waiting for me to write some grandiose bar fight story like Brewer used to then you'll be waiting until you stop breathing. The funny thing about Brewer in this context is that he wrote dozens of stories and even started a topic called "Story time", but in probably his best post ever he stated:

7. People who can accurately recount all the details of their fights weren't actually there.

That was probably the truest thing he ever wrote. Yet he wrote post after post recounting many details and telling hero stories for the children here around the proverbial campfire. I don't have to remember details to know training. You on the other hand are left doubting because you have no idea what training lies outside of tae-bo tactics. You are sitting here, telling people who have seen it, learned it and done it that it can't be done with regularity.

Maybe you get mugged with regularity on the mean streets of Salt Lake City Garland, but even here in NYC few people get mugged with any regularity unless they're being targeted by a specific group. Corrections officers, who are called NY's boldest, use these tactics more than police or the military. They are locked in with NY's worst for 12 hour shifts, and they don't have guns or blades. The prisoners often have all types of nasty improvised weapons. I can tell you that they aren't using muay thai, boxing or any other tae-bo method to stay alive.

This isn't about bragging rights. This about what I know thanks to better men. This is what I have learned thanks to the benefit of their experience. This is about what I can state with confidence because the knowledge that they passed on has worked many times over for me. This isn't "Uke's method". This is modern RBSD's method. Many of the guys that you talk to here aren't from the same system as me, but those guys know that what I'm saying is true because they also are rooted in the same principles. In fact, I can almost guarantee that at least one or two of them have said out loud "Osu!" while reading some of the things that I've written, but what do you know about that?

Its like DJForest said and I'm sure he was referring to you, but not only you:

Now here's the kick in the ass............you're trying to explain rocket science to monkeys.

You're getting the same response, a lot of confused looks and lots of shit flinging.

If you think I'm ignorant that's fine, Garland. I KNOW that you're ignorant. That's not the same as stupid. Its just an absence of knowledge. I think you're an articulate guy, but it seems that you're trying to extend your grasp of science and philosophy to include methods of combat that you clearly haven't ever been exposed to except for on the internet.

In your last response, like in the first, you exaggerate the scope of my explanations of RBSD in order to find points to argue. You imply things like "never can", "couldn't ever" and "always will" and pretend that those are my words or sentiments. Hence, the silver bullet analogy. You have no real argument, only whimsical jabs and uninformed doubt that lead you to tell those who have done a thing for years that it cannot be done.

That would be where the hubris and ignorance come in, spanky.

You do your best to mention RBSD systems and icons ...

I sincerely doubt any of the "it's too deadly to practice on another person" WWII RBSD/Cestari/Nelson/Fairbairn ..

... because that's all you know. You hear about a couple of names, then look them up on the internet and consider yourself enough of an authority to discuss them. That's like if I decided to talk about magic tricks I could say "Oh yeah ... Magic/David Blaine/Criss Angel/Harry Houdini". I'd be basically bullshitting my way through a conversation because I knew two or three names that I could mention to seem in the know. Name dropping and knowing shit are two different things.

And psssss ... *whispering* WWII RBSD ain't the only RBSD out there, spanky. Hasn't been since WWII ended. Now go run along and act like you know about that too.

[Uke]

When Brewer mentioned Boar after he himself banned Boar and I complained I got told to stop being a whiny bitch!

So here to all you people who piss and moan because Screwer "aint here to defend himnself".

STOP BEING WHINY BITCHES.


Now back to the subject at hand already in progress.

Amen to that, brother.

Ooops ...did that seem to churchy for you, DJForest???

[jubaji]

men who had high rank in other arts like muay thai, BJJ, kung fu, karate, jujitsu, judo, aikido, boxing, escrima, tae kwon do ... and they all come to my teachers after being in a street altercation that made them realize that what they had spent years learning didn't prepare them for what they faced that night of awakening.

Wow, all of them? I believe you thiiiiiiis much .


What a clown.

In fact, I can almost guarantee that at least one or two of them have said out loud "Osu!" while reading some of the things that I've written, but what do you know about that?

Oh brother....

[Tant01]

Phui...

Throughout your entire post, all you offer is opinion based on more opinion. That's why it’s apparent to everyone here that what you have to say is book learned rather then apparent from experience. Your statistics and theories mean nothing here, and your doubt isn't even reasonable. Your doubt is just cynical for the purposes of covering up the fact that you haven't been exposed to serious violence outside of frat parties and friendly gatherings where a pushing match breaks out.

..... Now go run along and act like you know about that too.

You don't need to be shot or cut or stabbed or hit from behind with a two by four (or a frickin brick). You don't need to bleed or suffer or heal or try to forget the trauma you've seen or inflicted to KNOW that it's ALL going to HURT.

Spare me the hospital bills, felony assault charges, civil suits and jail. You can have all the limping and stitches and scars!

You only need to do any of that to KNOW HOW BAD it HURTS.

Now, go hit your thumb with a hammer so you can tell every carpenter in the world how to drive a nail, what an EXPERT you are on the subject and that everyone else who hits their own thumb is doing it wrong.

Words on the forum sometimes say more about the author than the reader...YANNO?

I challenge you to be less condescending and slightly more thoughtful?

Thanks UKE!

[Uke]

You don't need to be shot or cut or stabbed or hit from behind with a two by four (or a frickin brick). You don't need to bleed or suffer or heal or try to forget the trauma you've seen or inflicted to KNOW that it's ALL going to HURT.

Spare me the hospital bills, felony assault charges, civil suits and jail. You can have all the limping and stitches and scars!

You only need to do any of that to KNOW HOW BAD it HURTS.

Now, go hit your thumb with a hammer so you can tell every carpenter in the world how to drive a nail, what an EXPERT you are on the subject and that everyone else who hits their own thumb is doing it wrong.

Words on the forum sometimes say more about the author than the reader...YANNO?

I challenge you to be less condescending and slightly more thoughtful?

Thanks UKE!

Got your point. I wouldn't have been condescending at all had he began his part in this discussion in a civil manner. Maybe you should go back a bit and see how he set the tone. I'm purposefully condescending at this point, Tant.

But your points still ring true.

[jubaji]

Got your point. I wouldn't have been condescending at all had he began his part in this discussion in a civil manner. Maybe you should go back a bit and see how he set the tone.

Waaaaa!!! He started it!!! Waaaaa!!!

[Tant01]

Third grade

Waaaaa!!! He started it!!! Waaaaa!!!

I'm sure Ju can do better than this? Show me something creative! LOL