Discussion on what makes a good seld defense cirriculum

[Uke]

I had The Book of Five Rings explained to me like this by a teacher once. It made a helluva lot more sense when I read it after that.

I'd wager that man wasn't a kickboxer or wrassler.

After 400 years this wisdom hasn't had to change. However I'm sure that even in Musashi's time there was a group of people who argued that sumo training prepared them just fine for combat. And I'm sure that Musashi laughed as long and as hard as we do.

[kingoftheforest]

An interesting read by L. Morrison. I at least thought so. I also thought it was relevant here. I agree with most of it.


Miyamoto Musashi’s Book of Five Rings and it’s relevance to modern day Close Combat



· You’re everyday position is your fighting stance. (This of course, where possible translates to your everyday natural fence, but is also relevant to striking from wherever your hands/weapons happen to be)



· You must strike with intent and focus (Mindset is of relevance here, particularly OFFENSIVE mindset which of course is in line with our Combative mentality, that being if we must fight, then we will fight until there’s nothing left to fight about. This is also relevant to the next point.)



· "Think neither of victory nor of yourself but only of cutting and killing your enemy". (My understanding of this is the same as the term ‘MUSHIN’ or NO MIND. Thinking not of victory, nor defeat, nor of consequence of any kind relating to this conflict, instead think only of putting the man down! In combat your perspective should always be what you will do to the subject, not what he can do to you.)



· Bear in mind when your opponent starts to fear, that he is being controlled by you during combat, ‘’you have victory in your hands.’’ (I have had several experiences that relate directly to this point. In all cases when you face a potential aggressor, his/their immediate perspective of you is surely not one that makes them think, you might turn them into a little grease spot on the pavement, if it was they would surely seek easier pickings else where? At-least for the majority anyway. So it is at the exact point during any potential conflict, when you change their incorrect perspective of you of prey/victim into one that depicts you clearly as the PREDATOR. This might be via a strong verbal projection of your indignation, or as is often the case, once you’ve banged the f##ker!)



· An enemy will attack only if he feels sure of himself. (Again relevance to the above point, most predatory males or 21st Century career criminals seek victims, not someone that will create attention or cause them pain or injury from fighting back tooth and nail.)



· By perceiving your opponents mental condition, you will always gain victory.(This comes from understanding the modern enemy, in relevance to what you are training for. Understanding body language cues and any pre-fight indicators associated to bad intent, also strive to perceive the subject’s state of mind, are they over confident, fearful, deceptive or aggressive? etc, anything that indicates the need to seize initiative on your part will go a long way toward assuring you victory.)



· Regardless of combat circumstances, you must always remain calm. Calmness is attained through meditation and belief in your own skills. (This refers to our ability to manage state and control your emotions under fight stress. Although some of the debilitating effects of adrenaline such as tunnel vision, auditory exclusion and the like are largely autonomic, they certainly appear to be directly related to the operator’s perception, of their ability to handle the perceived threat. In other words if your perception is in line with the self-belief that you can handle any Combative problem that your trained for, and is then enhanced further by successful experience in training and/or operationally, then the effects of adrenal stress will become hugely manageable this is de-sensitization and will allow you to attain calmness during a potential threat to life incident.



· Your attitude must be such that you can shift into any mode of combat without having to make a conscious decision. (This of course comes from gaining a significant level of unconscious competence in all aspects of combat, hand-to-hand, striking and grappling, integration of weapons along with the ability to adapt and flow at any range, employing simple skills that are easy to learn and retain under pressure, when thinking is impaired. Using gross motor options that will cover a vast array of scenarios.)



· You must go into combat with the attitude of absolutely destroying the enemy. If you do not develop this attitude, what are you doing there in the first place? Combat is never employed for fun. Even in practice sessions you must have the attitude of going in for the kill. (Again you will notice the commonality between a lot of these points. Think only of putting the man down! In combat your perspective should always be what you will do to the subject, not what he can do to you! You should carry this focus into your training, by incorporating visualisation every time you hit the pads. Remember train in state, operate in state!)



· You must train hard to be able to move into the attack and stop it before it even occurs. This takes great courage. (This first comes from having the WILLINGNESS and PREPARDNESS to step up when the need to fight becomes necessary and in a physical sense might apply to an interception of the physical attack in progress, via some kind of stop hit, or as is more likely, it might come from you perceiving the individual’s bad intent and pre-emptively striking him down even earlier.)



· Every strike must be done with full authority and full intensity. (If the physical is unavoidable, then we will hit first and keep hitting until the threat subsides, this must be done with full speed, power and ferocity.)



· Energy is always directed forward and focused on the purpose. (This of course applies to our Combatives principle of forward pressure, maximised by speed, surprise and aggression.)



· Use your environment well; always strive to keep your opponent back peddling into the obstacles to limit his foothold and movement. (This relates again to forward pressure integrated with the use of our environment, one example being to drive the subject into a wall followed with or during your assault.)



· In Hand-to-hand combat, when your opponent makes an aggressive move, you should respond with an even stronger movement and suppress his fighting spirit. (We strive to take initiative, but when initiative is lost, our counter response must be immediate and explosive, defending is not in our vocabulary, if we must react then we will do so offensively.)



· Overwhelm your opponent with the INTENTION of completely destroying him. (Willingness/preparedness/mindset.)



· The ‘Way’ cannot be learned through frivolous contests in which the outcome is for the name of a school or a large trophy. It can only be realised where physical death or injury is a reality. (Combatives are not about sport or art for art sake, instead purely designed as methods to counter violence. There really is no better training for the event, than the event, nor any substitute for live experience. (Padded assailant scenario training in state goes some way toward gaining such experience.)



· You can only fight the way you practice. (How you train is how you will fight, train in state, operate in state. This quote from Paul Vunak says it all; "in a crisis we will not rise to our expectations, but fall to our level of training")



· Peripheral vision is of utmost importance. It is a skill that is developed over a period of time in training. It should be used in everyday life as well. (As we know, one of the side effects of adrenal stress is tunnel vision; this makes us vulnerable to an attack from the flanks, thus creating the need to break tunnel vision by turning the head and actively scanning our immediate environment.)

· When you understand yourself and you understand your enemy you cannot be defeated. (Sun Tsu said it before him and many have said it since. Part of your overall awareness and combative functionality comes from knowing the enemy’s M.O, how he/she will operate and how that might affect you. In addition to this is the importance of knowing how you, will react under the affects of stress, fear and confusion? How you will deal with the fear and how you will control your emotions are all relevant to knowing yourself.)



· Do not permit yourself to be intimidated by the size of your enemy. (Again think only of what you will do to the enemy, outward appearance is no fool proof indication of ability, yes size, strength, ability and most of all intention do have a bearing, but we must not clutter our mind with consequence, think only of cutting down the enemy.)



· The truth is that strength lies in the interior of the warrior: in his heart, his mind and his spirit. (Chances are that it will be the adversity of live experience and/or hard, hard training and pressure testing of what you have, that will reveal this truth to you, so prepare yourself for the truth.)

I had The Book of Five Rings explained to me like this by a teacher once. It made a helluva lot more sense when I read it after that.

[Tom Yum]

Your science seems a little (okay maybe A LOT) like philosophy. That's fine for an educated guy like yourself. From where I sit you have every right to believe what you wish. I mean seriously? You paid for it, probably more than just money but here's the thing...

None of us are bullet proof. We bleed. We die. That's the reality.

As for your RBSD guys being DQ for the inability to "turn it off"... phui.

Like reaching for weapons you normally EDC? Scanning for "other" threats on the mat or in the ring (octagon)??? Breaking joints straight away instead of accepting surrender? Yeah... those ILLEGAL for competition rules are such a pain. Can't do any of those fun things like maiming or killing...

What do you mean I can't stomp his head after I throw him down? No steel toe boots on the canvas? WTF? LOL



Now... you can PRACTICE and simulate techniques and methods of inflicting all kinds of trauma that you may NEVER actually USE... Knock yourself out!

I'd still say it's more fun and perhaps NO LESS "REALISTIC" to practice things you can use in randori.

I love judo but I also play with sticks and knives (karambits) and I do a bit of target shooting.

I'm not here to promote the importance of hitting a bulls eye or suggesting my skill with a handgun makes me a "deadly gunfighter".

Paper targets don't shoot back.

We do what we do because we like it. Simple fact.

In MY opinion SD is about 98% attitude and 2% overwhelming force.

In other words your education will take you a lot further toward self preservation than deadly techniques....

But what do I know? LMAO

Tried to pos rep you but the computer won't let me!

[Uke]

An interesting read by L. Morrison. I at least thought so. I also thought it was relevant here. I agree with most of it.


Miyamoto Musashi’s Book of Five Rings and it’s relevance to modern day Close Combat



· You’re everyday position is your fighting stance. (This of course, where possible translates to your everyday natural fence, but is also relevant to striking from wherever your hands/weapons happen to be)



· You must strike with intent and focus (Mindset is of relevance here, particularly OFFENSIVE mindset which of course is in line with our Combative mentality, that being if we must fight, then we will fight until there’s nothing left to fight about. This is also relevant to the next point.)



· "Think neither of victory nor of yourself but only of cutting and killing your enemy". (My understanding of this is the same as the term ‘MUSHIN’ or NO MIND. Thinking not of victory, nor defeat, nor of consequence of any kind relating to this conflict, instead think only of putting the man down! In combat your perspective should always be what you will do to the subject, not what he can do to you.)



· Bear in mind when your opponent starts to fear, that he is being controlled by you during combat, ‘’you have victory in your hands.’’ (I have had several experiences that relate directly to this point. In all cases when you face a potential aggressor, his/their immediate perspective of you is surely not one that makes them think, you might turn them into a little grease spot on the pavement, if it was they would surely seek easier pickings else where? At-least for the majority anyway. So it is at the exact point during any potential conflict, when you change their incorrect perspective of you of prey/victim into one that depicts you clearly as the PREDATOR. This might be via a strong verbal projection of your indignation, or as is often the case, once you’ve banged the f##ker!)



· An enemy will attack only if he feels sure of himself. (Again relevance to the above point, most predatory males or 21st Century career criminals seek victims, not someone that will create attention or cause them pain or injury from fighting back tooth and nail.)



· By perceiving your opponents mental condition, you will always gain victory.(This comes from understanding the modern enemy, in relevance to what you are training for. Understanding body language cues and any pre-fight indicators associated to bad intent, also strive to perceive the subject’s state of mind, are they over confident, fearful, deceptive or aggressive? etc, anything that indicates the need to seize initiative on your part will go a long way toward assuring you victory.)



· Regardless of combat circumstances, you must always remain calm. Calmness is attained through meditation and belief in your own skills. (This refers to our ability to manage state and control your emotions under fight stress. Although some of the debilitating effects of adrenaline such as tunnel vision, auditory exclusion and the like are largely autonomic, they certainly appear to be directly related to the operator’s perception, of their ability to handle the perceived threat. In other words if your perception is in line with the self-belief that you can handle any Combative problem that your trained for, and is then enhanced further by successful experience in training and/or operationally, then the effects of adrenal stress will become hugely manageable this is de-sensitization and will allow you to attain calmness during a potential threat to life incident.



· Your attitude must be such that you can shift into any mode of combat without having to make a conscious decision. (This of course comes from gaining a significant level of unconscious competence in all aspects of combat, hand-to-hand, striking and grappling, integration of weapons along with the ability to adapt and flow at any range, employing simple skills that are easy to learn and retain under pressure, when thinking is impaired. Using gross motor options that will cover a vast array of scenarios.)



· You must go into combat with the attitude of absolutely destroying the enemy. If you do not develop this attitude, what are you doing there in the first place? Combat is never employed for fun. Even in practice sessions you must have the attitude of going in for the kill. (Again you will notice the commonality between a lot of these points. Think only of putting the man down! In combat your perspective should always be what you will do to the subject, not what he can do to you! You should carry this focus into your training, by incorporating visualisation every time you hit the pads. Remember train in state, operate in state!)



· You must train hard to be able to move into the attack and stop it before it even occurs. This takes great courage. (This first comes from having the WILLINGNESS and PREPARDNESS to step up when the need to fight becomes necessary and in a physical sense might apply to an interception of the physical attack in progress, via some kind of stop hit, or as is more likely, it might come from you perceiving the individual’s bad intent and pre-emptively striking him down even earlier.)



· Every strike must be done with full authority and full intensity. (If the physical is unavoidable, then we will hit first and keep hitting until the threat subsides, this must be done with full speed, power and ferocity.)



· Energy is always directed forward and focused on the purpose. (This of course applies to our Combatives principle of forward pressure, maximised by speed, surprise and aggression.)



· Use your environment well; always strive to keep your opponent back peddling into the obstacles to limit his foothold and movement. (This relates again to forward pressure integrated with the use of our environment, one example being to drive the subject into a wall followed with or during your assault.)



· In Hand-to-hand combat, when your opponent makes an aggressive move, you should respond with an even stronger movement and suppress his fighting spirit. (We strive to take initiative, but when initiative is lost, our counter response must be immediate and explosive, defending is not in our vocabulary, if we must react then we will do so offensively.)



· Overwhelm your opponent with the INTENTION of completely destroying him. (Willingness/preparedness/mindset.)



· The ‘Way’ cannot be learned through frivolous contests in which the outcome is for the name of a school or a large trophy. It can only be realised where physical death or injury is a reality. (Combatives are not about sport or art for art sake, instead purely designed as methods to counter violence. There really is no better training for the event, than the event, nor any substitute for live experience. (Padded assailant scenario training in state goes some way toward gaining such experience.)



· You can only fight the way you practice. (How you train is how you will fight, train in state, operate in state. This quote from Paul Vunak says it all; "in a crisis we will not rise to our expectations, but fall to our level of training")



· Peripheral vision is of utmost importance. It is a skill that is developed over a period of time in training. It should be used in everyday life as well. (As we know, one of the side effects of adrenal stress is tunnel vision; this makes us vulnerable to an attack from the flanks, thus creating the need to break tunnel vision by turning the head and actively scanning our immediate environment.)

· When you understand yourself and you understand your enemy you cannot be defeated. (Sun Tsu said it before him and many have said it since. Part of your overall awareness and combative functionality comes from knowing the enemy’s M.O, how he/she will operate and how that might affect you. In addition to this is the importance of knowing how you, will react under the affects of stress, fear and confusion? How you will deal with the fear and how you will control your emotions are all relevant to knowing yourself.)



· Do not permit yourself to be intimidated by the size of your enemy. (Again think only of what you will do to the enemy, outward appearance is no fool proof indication of ability, yes size, strength, ability and most of all intention do have a bearing, but we must not clutter our mind with consequence, think only of cutting down the enemy.)



· The truth is that strength lies in the interior of the warrior: in his heart, his mind and his spirit. (Chances are that it will be the adversity of live experience and/or hard, hard training and pressure testing of what you have, that will reveal this truth to you, so prepare yourself for the truth.)

[Uke]

Your science seems a little (okay maybe A LOT) like philosophy. That's fine for an educated guy like yourself. From where I sit you have every right to believe what you wish. I mean seriously? You paid for it, probably more than just money but here's the thing...

None of us are bullet proof. We bleed. We die. That's the reality.

As for your RBSD guys being DQ for the inability to "turn it off"... phui.

Like reaching for weapons you normally EDC? Scanning for "other" threats on the mat or in the ring (octagon)??? Breaking joints straight away instead of accepting surrender? Yeah... those ILLEGAL for competition rules are such a pain. Can't do any of those fun things like maiming or killing...

What do you mean I can't stomp his head after I throw him down? No steel toe boots on the canvas? WTF? LOL



Now... you can PRACTICE and simulate techniques and methods of inflicting all kinds of trauma that you may NEVER actually USE... Knock yourself out!

I'd still say it's more fun and perhaps NO LESS "REALISTIC" to practice things you can use in randori.

I love judo but I also play with sticks and knives (karambits) and I do a bit of target shooting.

I'm not here to promote the importance of hitting a bulls eye or suggesting my skill with a handgun makes me a "deadly gunfighter".

Paper targets don't shoot back.

We do what we do because we like it. Simple fact.

In MY opinion SD is about 98% attitude and 2% overwhelming force.

In other words your education will take you a lot further toward self preservation than deadly techniques....

But what do I know? LMAO

That's what I said. Do what makes ya happy. I've mentioned the fact that none of us are bullet proof many times. We all bleed.

I don't think I promote anything as much as I just simply have maintained the fact that one thing is not the other, Tant01. Promoting something would have me posting links to schools and dropping names, or even saying that one thing is better than another. I haven't, but that won't stop people here from pretending like I have.

I admit and will continue to believe that one thing is made to do a specific thing while the other has its own purpose. If that statement makes anyone feel like I'm devaluing their efforts then that's their own hang up. I'm not asking anyone nor have I ever asked anyone to agree with me. Not even the people I get along with here.

I'm confident in what I do, and happy with it too. My saying that doesn't mean that anyone else should be unhappy with their training. People are a bit sensitive with that. But I feel as though unless I sit down and agree that boxing and wrestling are cutting edge self defense and then toast to them over beers while singing Irish drinking songs that this site will always view how I feel as hostile.

I'm hardly alone in how I feel about the differences. You can pretty much visit any RBSD school or site and see that they are all in line with the same approach. This isn't "Uke's dogma". The sparring thread pretty much told the same tale. As much as some of you feel that I'm telling you about what you do, I'm really not. I'm telling you about what I do, and about the fact that what some of you write about isn't the same thing but related as all forms of contact are. That IMO is the real source of friction.

As far as it not being complicated ... I agree. It never was.

[Tant01]

It's not so complex...

.....................

................
.............
.......
...
.


I've already stated that many if not most RBSD practitioners come from a traditional background like karate, judo, etc. Did you know that many of the practitioners who tried to keep competing once they began learning RBSD often got disqualified because they couldn't turn off the self defense training? They would do things that were against the rules of whatever tournament they were in and wind up getting DQ'd over and over again. Can you guess why? Its because they couldn't turn off the way they had begun to train their minds and bodies to respond either. It works both ways, not just for the sporty guys.

In the end, it can best be said that while the ring and the street are locations, what happens in both places is what makes up the reality. Things that happen in the street won't ever happen in the ring. In fact, anything can happen in the street which makes it reality. While only orchestrated situations happen in the ring which makes it art or sport. Training for those unforeseen realities in a practical manner is the purpose of RBSD. While training under the strict rules of a manufactured event and closely adhering to those rules to prevent being disqualified is what makes sport combat or just sports in general a safe and predictable game.

Your science seems a little (okay maybe A LOT) like philosophy. That's fine for an educated guy like yourself. From where I sit you have every right to believe what you wish. I mean seriously? You paid for it, probably more than just money but here's the thing...

None of us are bullet proof. We bleed. We die. That's the reality.

As for your RBSD guys being DQ for the inability to "turn it off"... phui.

Like reaching for weapons you normally EDC? Scanning for "other" threats on the mat or in the ring (octagon)??? Breaking joints straight away instead of accepting surrender? Yeah... those ILLEGAL for competition rules are such a pain. Can't do any of those fun things like maiming or killing...

What do you mean I can't stomp his head after I throw him down? No steel toe boots on the canvas? WTF? LOL



Now... you can PRACTICE and simulate techniques and methods of inflicting all kinds of trauma that you may NEVER actually USE... Knock yourself out!

I'd still say it's more fun and perhaps NO LESS "REALISTIC" to practice things you can use in randori.

I love judo but I also play with sticks and knives (karambits) and I do a bit of target shooting.

I'm not here to promote the importance of hitting a bulls eye or suggesting my skill with a handgun makes me a "deadly gunfighter".

Paper targets don't shoot back.

We do what we do because we like it. Simple fact.

In MY opinion SD is about 98% attitude and 2% overwhelming force.

In other words your education will take you a lot further toward self preservation than deadly techniques....

But what do I know? LMAO

[jubaji]

The next assumption is that just because you are carrying a knife, you think that you can deploy and use that knife against someone who knows how.

Who here has made that assumption? And doesn't that last part kinda sound like the 'dueling' you dislike so much?

Martial arts is what you do with somebody. RBSD and combatives is something you do to somebody.

Ok, that's pointless semantics, you must admit.

RBSD, which is often times a preemptive assault, is and always has been predicated on kill or being killed.

How many of the people you train with have killed someone in a street altercation? How many of them have ever been in any kind of altercation? Now, which of those two numbers is larger?

If this applied to sports, how I ask, can matches go on for 12 rounds?

Ok, I really think you need to let go of the '12 rounds' and 'weight classes' thing, because I don't think it is in any way supporting what you think it is.

other skills that you don't focus on will come easily and be there during a real altercation. Wrong again. I've said it a thousand times and will continue to say it: You will fight like you've trained.

These are both things I've been trying to say to you for some time now.

Still, the biggest assumption that has ever been written here on the topic of street violence is that sport training will be enough ...

And yet, an awful lot of people trained for 'sport' (a far, far greater number, I'd wager than those who train RBSD) have been involved in street violence and found it to be enough for the situations they were in. Here again some experience is accepted and some is not in this discussion for some reason.

What you don't seem to realize is that going for a shoot against a man with a knife is suicidal. Taking an armed man down and having him in your guard is suicidal. Muay thai clinching with an armed man and attempting to knee him repeatedly is suicidal.

I don't think anyone has advocated any of those as the best first option or something they'd be eager to do, but situations dictate the best course of action moment by moment, not a set of 'rules' on the internet.

Basically the message is that you wouldn't attempt half the things in a street altercation that you would in the ring. No jumping muay thai knees. No rolling leg locks. No guard work. No boxing matches. No shoot or takedown attempts.

But people (many more people than have made RBSD their life's calling) have done all those things "in a street altercation" thousands of times. So people would, have, do, and will attempt those things as a matter of fact.

So basically you have just limited your arsenal that you regularly use

No, YOU have just arbitrarily decreed it so.

They would do things that were against the rules of whatever tournament they were in and wind up getting DQ'd over and over again. Can you guess why?

I guess because they are really dumb, or remarkably lacking in self control.

[kingoftheforest]

I've been posting about what I think works for self-defense and the concerns that I have with RBSD ideology. I don't have any interest in the tired old sport vs. street debate. I think there are some good ideas in RBSD which is why I brought up the "milling" drill that Thai Bri talked about in my first post. I'd love to hear about more training ideas like that that involve genuine resistance and are geared towards self-defense. My opinion is that cross-training is the best way to be a well-rounded martial artist, and that includes using many sporting methods. I know some RBSD practitioners disagree but we ought to be able to have a discussion without turning this thread into a cliche.

I agree completely. There shouldn't be a problem with people putting out different ideas and training methods. This is supposed to help us grow, not help us learn to bicker better.

No one technique or idea is "better" some just get results people feel work more to their advantage.

Just because you don't agree with something doesn't make it wrong just as a matter of principal.

Granted some things are just retarded, people can judge this for themselves, if not they started to high on the thinking chain for themselves, and that can't be helped.

Thanks Sag that post says alot about what is and what should be happening.

[jubaji]

Many assumptions have been written here. Like the idea that because professional ring fighters are in top shape that all or even most people who train in muay thai and boxing will be in great shape.

Would you admit that they are nonetheless likely to be in far better shape than those who do not?

[jubaji]

I don't argue over other people's experience, jubaji. I argue when people who admittedly have never trained outside of ring methods try to pass of sports dogma and methods as RBSD. And most people don't have to actually come out and admit that they've never trained in RBSD. All one has to do is sit back and let them write about it and the words tell on themselves.

I don't think anyone who hasn't trained in a 'system' specifically labeled as a RBSD system has made any claims to have done so. When I referred to arguing about people's experiences I meant that the fact that a number of people from a number of backgrounds have gotten into and out of various unfortunate incidents in the street/outside the ring/in the real world or whatever you want to call it and relied on different approaches or reactions to whatever degree of success has directly or indirectly been disputed in terms of 'legitimacy.' That certainly comes across as 'my reality is the only reality' whether intended or not.

[JadeDragon]

A good self defense curriculum is one that is realistic, not fancy, and keeps the techniques simple. Remember the acronym K.I.S.S. (keep it simple stupid)? Thats how a self defense curriculum should be. Also it is important to teach the right mind set that one should have in a self defense situation. I would tell my students to have a ruthless aggressive attitude. Have a positive, winning attitude.

[Sagacious Lu]

I've been posting about what I think works for self-defense and the concerns that I have with RBSD ideology. I don't have any interest in the tired old sport vs. street debate. I think there are some good ideas in RBSD which is why I brought up the "milling" drill that Thai Bri talked about in my first post. I'd love to hear about more training ideas like that that involve genuine resistance and are geared towards self-defense. My opinion is that cross-training is the best way to be a well-rounded martial artist, and that includes using many sporting methods. I know some RBSD practitioners disagree but we ought to be able to have a discussion without turning this thread into a cliche.

[kingoftheforest]

Keep on track folks please.

Ok guys, and this means everybody posting in this thread.

While we are all making some very good points as to why what we each train and believe is good for RBSD. Some people seem to keep the argument going as to why one is better than the other.

I know that some of this may feel opinion based and some of it is. But there are facts here and that's what we are after.

Lets try more to discuss why what you train fits the principles of RBSD and less on why it is better than what somebody else trains.

If you disagree with what someone says fine, but lets all that's everyone, explain why what you feel works, and let the other people form an opinion in their own minds over the info given.

Please instead of just snipping at what other people say add facts and info as to why what you think works, not why you think something else won't.

With facts and info people can go out in the real world not cyberspace and see what works for them.

To everyone who has contributed, thanks and lets continue to keep it civil, factual, and on track.

[Uke]

Then why do we spend so much time here arguing over whose experience is legitimate or not?

I don't argue over other people's experience, jubaji. I argue when people who admittedly have never trained outside of ring methods try to pass of sports dogma and methods as RBSD. And most people don't have to actually come out and admit that they've never trained in RBSD. All one has to do is sit back and let them write about it and the words tell on themselves.

I am completely not interested in what any of you can do. I'm not sure that I've ever asked anyone who wasn't putting on a grand display to get attention. But that doesn't mean that when red flags are raised I won't notice or ask questions.

Many assumptions have been written here. Like the idea that because professional ring fighters are in top shape that all or even most people who train in muay thai and boxing will be in great shape. The same assumption goes for BJJ and wrestling as well. That isn't even really an assumption. Its just plain wrong. Anyone at a professional level in any physically demanding sport will be in better condition to meet the demands of that sport. But 90% of the world's people ain't pro. So we can leave that myth at the door. Judging by some comments written here you think that only ring competitors train hard. That couldn't be further from the truth.

The next assumption is that just because you are carrying a knife, you think that you can deploy and use that knife against someone who knows how. Sure you'll have a fighting chance, but the fact is that when the sh!t hits the fan most won't go for their knife right away. They'll get caught up fighting hard, which just translates to throwing lots of punches and kicks. The sparring thread does a wonderful job of describing what the sport fighter considers "combat" and how they go about accomplishing a win. And even if you did manage to deploy your blade, what are you going to do? If you've taken some sort of FMA to "round out" then you're going to take a stance and start flourishing your knife or stick because that's what many of the schools teach. They are dueling and traditional schools, not combatives. Martial arts is what you do with somebody. RBSD and combatives is something you do to somebody.

There have been examples where boxers fight martial artists. Muhammad Ali did. He went on to say that a karate man would beat a boxer because of his tools and the way he trained. And Ali is arguably the greatest boxer who ever lived in some circles. The same idea applies when discussing RBSD. The tools are and training are different than those of sport competition to be used towards different ends.

RBSD, which is often times a preemptive assault, is and always has been predicated on kill or being killed. Encounters like that don't last even a minute most times.

If this applied to sports, how I ask, can matches go on for 12 rounds? The Gracies once bragged that a match went on for I believe 3 hours and 40 minutes! And the Gracies are constantly likening what they do to real violence and street combat. That bull. A knife in a fight isn't meant for anything else but cutting. And being that most reputable RBSDs are predicated on edged weapons it's a no-brainer what they are intended to be used for. This is what the training is geared towards.

By reading some of the arguments here over the past few years, it becomes clear that some of you don't believe that your training has to be focused towards an end. Some of you actually believe that because you say you "train hard" that other skills that you don't focus on will come easily and be there during a real altercation. Wrong again. I've said it a thousand times and will continue to say it: You will fight like you've trained. Still, the biggest assumption that has ever been written here on the topic of street violence is that sport training will be enough ... and if it isn't then the only alternatives that ANYONE would have is to run. That is more nonsense.

There is a thing called situational effectiveness. For sports, the rules create a situation where the method can be effective. Period. Weight classes alone have dramatically revamped MMA, boxing and kickboxing alone ... not to mention pads, rounds, and rules that prohibit hitting down opponents in certain ways with certain strikes.

What these events allow many of you to do is imagine and give consent to your reasoning to believe that the ring and the street are only places or locations, and nothing more, so the effectiveness would be the same on the asphalt or on a mat. What you don't seem to realize is that going for a shoot against a man with a knife is suicidal. Taking an armed man down and having him in your guard is suicidal. Muay thai clinching with an armed man and attempting to knee him repeatedly is suicidal.

Basically the message is that you wouldn't attempt half the things in a street altercation that you would in the ring. No jumping muay thai knees. No rolling leg locks. No guard work. No boxing matches. No shoot or takedown attempts. Nothing that would have you throwing caution to the wind because you knew the worst that could happen is you'd get knocked out and the ref would save you before any real damage could be done.

So basically you have just limited your arsenal that you regularly use, and now you are going to do what? Are you automatically going to know which techniques are "Okay" to use and which ones are risky and dangerous despite training only for the ring? Are you all of a sudden going to switch "modes" into doing something that you basically don't do the majority of the time you've spent training? That's just more nonsense. Hell, what allows most of MMA matches to go on for as long as they do is the guard. So once that's eliminated as an option half of what you're accustomed to working with is wiped out.

So then what you'd be saying is that now that you're in a situation where you can be killed you'll limit yourself and your trained abilities in order to do better? What kind of backwards thinking is that? And for those of you who are going to say that you wouldn't limit yourself, are you saying that you'd continue to use the flying knees, spinning back kicks, muay thai clinch and launch knees, shoot in an attempt takedowns, go to the guard, use triangle chokes, rolling leg locks and trade shots? I can't wait to hear someone say that those aren't the exact things that happen in MMA and kickboxing. That would be more than enough satisfaction for me to see such hypocrisy on display.

I've already stated that many if not most RBSD practitioners come from a traditional background like karate, judo, etc. Did you know that many of the practitioners who tried to keep competing once they began learning RBSD often got disqualified because they couldn't turn off the self defense training? They would do things that were against the rules of whatever tournament they were in and wind up getting DQ'd over and over again. Can you guess why? Its because they couldn't turn off the way they had begun to train their minds and bodies to respond either. It works both ways, not just for the sporty guys.

In the end, it can best be said that while the ring and the street are locations, what happens in both places is what makes up the reality. Things that happen in the street won't ever happen in the ring. In fact, anything can happen in the street which makes it reality. While only orchestrated situations happen in the ring which makes it art or sport. Training for those unforeseen realities in a practical manner is the purpose of RBSD. While training under the strict rules of a manufactured event and closely adhering to those rules to prevent being disqualified is what makes sport combat or just sports in general a safe and predictable game.

[jubaji]

See post #44