Discussion on what makes a good seld defense cirriculum

[Uke]

I think ANY art that calls itself "Martial" should be weapon based.

Lets be perfectly real for a moment? DO you honestly think a pugilistic approach is right for SD?

I agree with that. The movement and the base of what I practice all come from a system predicated on weapons. Even the empty hand method is based on weapon movements. That's why we are taught to master the motion and not the specific weapon.

I gotta tell ya KOTF... The last thing I want for my girls to try to duke it out with someone trying to harm them... Does it seem even slightly absurd?

I totally agree with that. What I learned through discussion and debating though is that a large portion of those who practice the arts think that duking it out is the only way. I agree with your statement wholeheartedly, Tant.

The "pugilistic" approach comes from the idea that nothing stops an attack faster than blunt force trauma. If I want to stop someone instantly, nothing does it better, knife wounds (even sword wounds) and gunshot wounds aren't known for putting people down instantly.

Absolute truth. However, if the blunt force that you're dishing out doesn't have the same stopping power as a brick, bat or brass knuckles, then you better understand how to start dishing out some attrition ... break your man down without backing out and looking for openings, posturing, jabbing, slugging it out. Basically competing.

Factor in the old Combatives rule: NEVER attempt to apply a hold or lock without first stunning the opponent and the pugilistic approach starts to make sense.

Another maxim of RBSD. The problem some people have here is that they don't practice this maxim, but they assume that they can just apply it on the fly. If you don't train to land your strikes sure, you're not going to feel confident attempting them during an altercation unless you're just swinging out of desperation, which is what it often comes down to when it looks like a brawl.

Since the only thing you count on being in your hands when attacked is your fingers, some striking to stun the opponent can buy you the time to access your knife, gun, sap, or whatever you may need to maintain control of the situation.

Or it may keep the other man from being able to access whatever he's holding. One thing a teacher of mine taught me is that not enough people pat down their opponents once they have them down and out. Its the easiest thing in the world for a man who's been beaten up to sit up, pull his pistol and shoot you in the back once you're 20 feet away. Never leave a man with his weapon. Even if you just throw it down the sewer on the next corner.

I agree you can't teach street smarts it has to be instinctual.

Well I think that you have to define what street smarts are then. You don't have to get mugged to learn from someone else's ordeal. You don't have to live in a bad neighborhood to learn from the experiences from those that do. Contrary to what many people think, the extent of most people's street smarts ends with avoidance. Avoidance is the number one tactic practiced by decent residents in bad neighborhoods.

Street smarts come from mistakes or other experiences. People usually pay a price for the smarts they acquire living in bad neighborhoods. The smart ones watch and learn from those mistakes. If you're walking through a neighborhood where your skin color is not welcomed, or if you are out late on a dark street and you are a woman, or if you are wearing expensive jewelry in a poor neighborhood then you are asking for trouble. That's not street smarts. That's common sense for those who live/work there.

All too often people think that because they are from those areas they can break those rules. Case in point: Zab Judah. Zab wants to drive his Lamborghini through Brooklyn and wear $100,000 worth of jewelry to go get a drink from the corner store. Well, he may consider himself Brooklyn's favorite son, but the men who pulled up with guns and stole all his jewelry off of his neck sure didn't. The same happened to Stephan Marbury.

Street smarts really boil down to a couple of things:

1) Be inconspicuous. Flashy clothes and jewelry are for drug dealers, athletes and celebrities with an entourage and security, and Liberace.

2) Run from trouble(gunshots, screams, gang fights,etc)

3) When confronted, decide if its worth fighting for. Determine whether your ass is on the line or not, and let that be the scale. Turning and running may get you shot if your ass is on the line. That happens all the time. Don't show fear, but don't show aggression either.

4) Stay away from places that trouble frequently occurs. If your cousin was shot at that bar last week then its safe to say that you may not want to be there.

5) Try not to make enemies. Being seen speaking with police, snitching, and beating up the neighborhood drug dealer's little brother for poking you in the chest with his finger all qualify.

6) In some states, especially NY, staring at people is a challenge. So many people have to learn that lesson the hard way. How many people get shot or stabbed everyday over the simple question "WTF are you looking at?".

7) A great way to have people scheming to rob your house is to leave out the box for that new Dell computer and LG 50" LCD you just bought. This happens in wealthy suburbs too. Crush the boxes up and take them to a dumpster.

8) Get off your cell phone. That's the easiest way to be distracted when you're being marked for a mugging when you're alone. No awareness equals no forewarning.

9) If you're going to be out late in a city/place that's not exactly safe and you're with your lady, spring for a cab. Walking is romantic and all, but the last thing you need is to be caught up protecting your lady when what you needed to do was attack when you had the chance.

10) If you must be out and about in the city/town when its late, stick to crowds and brightly lit areas. The one thing muggers have in common is that they don't want any witnesses or cameras recording their score. They hug the shadows, so you shouldn't. Avoid dark alleys and tunnels. Know when you're being followed and know when someone is trying to set you up.

You're not going to find too much more "street smarts" beyond those points. There are finer points like recognizing the bulge of a gun or noticing a knife clipped to a pocket or belt, but aside from the points I mentioned its all common sense.

[jubaji]

if it comes down to unarmed fighting than fundamental skills will carry the day against dirty tricks the vast majority of the time.

I could not agree more.

[TTEscrima]

I'm with Mick Coup: "I'm not a palm Nazi, they're your hands, do what you want with them."

Seminar footage PT1
YouTube - MICK COUP SEMINAR CLIP 1

PT2
YouTube - MICK COUP SEMINAR CLIP 2

PT3
YouTube - MICK COUP SEMINAR CLIP 3

PT4 (the audio sux on this one)
YouTube - MICK COUP SEMINAR CLIP 4

[kingoftheforest]

I agree arguing over already argued stuff is inane. if anybody needs to know how either of us feel they can look it up. Seems to be a hobby around here anyway.

As for the comment on the knife. I agree 100% it's great to have but if the other guy wasn't planning on going there and you did, whoops. Now it maybe gun vs. knife.

Problem is what if you don't and the other guy does. It's a conundrum.

I guess since the knife is a reality in my training I could be biased to open hand slaps. You tend to make contact that way when doing knife drills. Plus the Iron palm training.

There are some types of flash lights that are out there for sale that make good SD weapons in a pinch.

I gotta say though mind set is definitely a major component in training yourself for a real altercation.

It's hard to train exactly what would happen. going at that kind of speed would get somebody seriously hurt quick.

There are some drills that our group does at various speeds. There are some days when I wish i had wore goggles to class.

[Sagacious Lu]

An open hand slap to the face, with a clawing motion on the pull away with almost always net. Weather it be an eye or a nostril or even a fish hook (although biting is a concern there, sometimes you get what you get), same with groin. You attack and if you practice properly and enough you will get the little bonuses.

I won't bother with the open hand vs. closed fist strikes debate; both work and it's a matter of personal preference. The risks of punches are exaggerated by the open-hand proponents but they are still there. The idea of raking does make sense to me, especially in the clinch but I still think it's going to be hard to pull off in the middle of the chaos.

As for sparring, wearing equipment not only changes your mindset to a degree but gloves also teach you a range that isn't the same as you punching bare fist.

The range issue is fairly minimal, especially considering that you can't realistically train strikes without them unless neither you and nor your training partners care about your health. Like it or not without gloves you can't hit each other hard enough to matter without mutilating each other.

Your punches won't have as much impact without gloves

.

This is the only thing you've said that I completely disagree with. The idea is just nonsense; if my punch hurts with gloves it's only going to hurt more without them. The idea that you won't hit as hard without them is just absurd.

Also punching some one in the head is going to ruin your hands at some point.

Maybe, then again maybe not, it's not nearly as dangerous as the open-palm people want you to think.

Open hand slaps do more damage

No, a punch will do more damage, it is up for debate though since either can be thrown with KO power.

I do prefer a knife and happen to live where I can carry legally.

A knife can be a great equalizer, but then again it can make a bad situation worse. The difference is knowing when to pull it. They're good to have around one way or the other.

As for swarming, yes that is a tactic and a crappy position to be in. There are ways to fight it, and you have to have a don't give up mentality to win in a situation like that.

Hell you either have to be WAY better than your attackers or you have to be VERY lucky to win against multiples. Actually, it would help to be both better and luckier.

"Son a real fight is like your first time having sex! It last about 3 seconds and there's all kinds of groping ,clawing, slapping and biting, and when it's over one of you rolls over and goes to sleep, and the other goes home.

LOLOLOLOLOL well said.

[kingoftheforest]

The way I see it what you're talking about here is what to do in a desperate situation. If you are targeted by one or more criminals they're going to make sure they have an over-whelming advantage, whether that means over-whelming odds, a weapon, surprise or some combination of the above. Sure awareness is great but personally I'm extremely skeptical of anyone who thinks they can teach street smarts... that's something that has to come from experience. clearly a weapon is your best option but for most of us carrying a gun at all times is impractical and, IMHO excessive to the point of paranoia. Knives and blunt objects are more feasible, and from what I understand the Dog Brothers have some great ideas for training with them. Naturally this means being aware of weapons of opportunity like trash cans, bottles, chairs or whatever else is at hand. Training to grab a weapon of opportunity is dubious because you don't know what will be available, thus it probably isn't worth spending a lot of time on.
As far as desperate unarmed measures ie. eye gouges and small joint manipulation and the like they are just that; desperate. I doubt if there is a good way to train these skills- if it comes down to unarmed fighting than fundamental skills will carry the day against dirty tricks the vast majority of the time. Acquiring fundamental skills means practicing (this list of styles is not meant to be comprehensive) throws with judoka and wrestlers, strikes with boxers/kick boxers submissions with BJJ or Sambo and so on. Thus eye gouges, small joint manipulation groin and so on IMHO so should take up little (or none) of your training time because they're very low percentage moves in the best of times and exponentially harder if you're really fighting for your life.
I remember Thai Bri posting a drill that I thought was great for SD situations that I think he called "milling". The idea was to suit up with mouth piece, 16 oz. (or bigger) gloves and spar full-tilt for a minute. The idea is that it better simulates a real fight than using 3 minute rounds like a sportsman because you just don't have the time to utilize sport strategies.
In closing I want to reiterate that we're discussing a desperate situation which means that it's going to be unpredictable in the extreme. Since you can't anticipate what's going to happen your best bet is to focus on the fundamentals, which means conditioning for strength, stamina speed and agility and sparring, sparring, sparring and more sparring.

Just my $.02.

I agree you can't teach street smarts it has to be instinctual. But you can set people on the path to being more aware and gaining these instincts.

I also agree that basics are a must. As far as going directly for the eyes or groin, that's not the concept I was taught.

An open hand slap to the face, with a clawing motion on the pull away with almost always net something. Weather it be an eye or a nostril or even a fish hook (although biting is a concern there, sometimes you get what you get), same with groin. You attack and if you practice properly and enough you will get the little bonuses.

Results may vary each time depending on the reaction of the other party. remember they have input too, that's what makes them dangerous.

As for sparring, wearing equipment not only changes your mindset to a degree but gloves also teach you a range that isn't the same as you punching bare fist. Your punches won't have as much impact without gloves. Also punching some one in the head is going to ruin your hands at some point. Open hand slaps do more damage and add element like clawing and gouging.

I do prefer a knife and happen to live where I can carry legally.

As for swarming, yes that is a tactic and a crappy position to be in. There are ways to fight it, and you have to have a don't give up mentality to win in a situation like that.

Two on one or 1 on 1 muggings and attacks are more common here in the U.S.

Usually if you're gonna get swarmed awareness will give a little prior warning if not a lot. groups like that tend to exude violence.

Improvised weapons were mentioned earlier and the examples you gave are great. Also good to be aware of your environment.

I also agree that strategy is not usually an option in a street attack. i had an instructor explain it to me great he said....

"Son a real fight is like your first time having sex! It last about 3 seconds and there's all kinds of groping ,clawing, slapping and biting, and when it's over one of you rolls over and goes to sleep, and the other goes home."

[Sagacious Lu]

The way I see it what you're talking about here is what to do in a desperate situation. If you are targeted by one or more criminals they're going to make sure they have an over-whelming advantage, whether that means over-whelming odds, a weapon, surprise or some combination of the above. Sure awareness is great but personally I'm extremely skeptical of anyone who thinks they can teach street smarts... that's something that has to come from experience. clearly a weapon is your best option but for most of us carrying a gun at all times is impractical and, IMHO excessive to the point of paranoia. Knives and blunt objects are more feasible, and from what I understand the Dog Brothers have some great ideas for training with them. Naturally this means being aware of weapons of opportunity like trash cans, bottles, chairs or whatever else is at hand. Training to grab a weapon of opportunity is dubious because you don't know what will be available, thus it probably isn't worth spending a lot of time on.
As far as desperate unarmed measures ie. eye gouges and small joint manipulation and the like they are just that; desperate. I doubt if there is a good way to train these skills- if it comes down to unarmed fighting than fundamental skills will carry the day against dirty tricks the vast majority of the time. Acquiring fundamental skills means practicing (this list of styles is not meant to be comprehensive) throws with judoka and wrestlers, strikes with boxers/kick boxers submissions with BJJ or Sambo and so on. Thus eye gouges, small joint manipulation groin and so on IMHO so should take up little (or none) of your training time because they're very low percentage moves in the best of times and exponentially harder if you're really fighting for your life.
I remember Thai Bri posting a drill that I thought was great for SD situations that I think he called "milling". The idea was to suit up with mouth piece, 16 oz. (or bigger) gloves and spar full-tilt for a minute. The idea is that it better simulates a real fight than using 3 minute rounds like a sportsman because you just don't have the time to utilize sport strategies.
In closing I want to reiterate that we're discussing a desperate situation which means that it's going to be unpredictable in the extreme. Since you can't anticipate what's going to happen your best bet is to focus on the fundamentals, which means conditioning for strength, stamina speed and agility and sparring, sparring, sparring and more sparring.

Just my $.02.

[TTEscrima]

The "pugilistic" approach comes from the idea that nothing stops an attack faster than blunt force trauma. If I want to stop someone instantly, nothing does it better, knife wounds (even sword wounds) and gunshot wounds aren't known for putting people down instantly. OF COURSE, if all those things can be survived so can a strike, but...you have your hands and feet everywhere you go unlike all the tactical feelgood devices people often rely on.

Factor in the old Combatives rule: NEVER attempt to apply a hold or lock without first stunning the opponent and the pugilistic approach starts to make sense.

Since the only thing you count on being in your hands when attacked is your fingers, some striking to stun the opponent can buy you the time to access your knife, gun, sap, or whatever you may need to maintain control of the situation.

I know its been posted before and there was some pretty good discussion in the thread but I feel Bob Spours take on combatives is dead on.

Here is a link to the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOTwg_YXYy0

And here is a link to the thread: http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/u...ombatives.html

This is the closest thing to Boar's curriculum I've seen on the net, except Boar has damn near 30 years of Iron Palm to back those slaps up.

[kingoftheforest]

I don't disagree and my favorite SD device is definitely my blade. I think a weapon in a trained hand would be a welcome friend to your girls.


I wanted someone else to bring up the aspect of weapons, and I like the small joint control, it gets attentions.

Most people follow that stigma on edged weapons so I wasn't going to push it. I spend a good amount of time training with my EDC as well as hands on. I even train for those times when I go for my knife and something goes amiss, or I get it out but can't open it.

Can't see any fault in agreeing with you here.

[Tant01]

Some... "other" skills?

First and foremost I would like to define a few things so there is no confusion as to what is being discussed in this thread.
...

...If someone attacks you on the street or invades your home, you have to be mentally and physically prepared to deal with them. Subduing an opponent without injuring them is considered the highest form by most traditional arts. So unless you study and don't do alot else be prepared to injure (at the very least) your assailant. This isn't to say you have to have a KILL KILL KILL!!! mentality. But have the mindset that you're going all out right away, because you have no idea what the other guy is willing to do.

.....


Some of the skills necessary to defend yourself:

...

I feel that some type of punching and kicking art should be a good base for SD. Nothing fancy with spins and jumps. You're not trying to dazzle the "bad guys" unconscious. You want to expend as little energy with the most effect.

Multiple ranges are good to have too. Elbows and knees as well as hands and feet. You never know how close someone may be before things jump off. It's good to know your tools and have many to choose from.

While grappling and going to the ground aren't the most advantageous potions in a street/bar fight, you should cover these as well. Once again you never know where or when this may occur.

The grappling techniques you learn should be more of how to get the person off you and give you striking/running range. Judo has some nice throws that will usually give you some room to move or even knock out your assailant. Try to avoid suicide throws there's a reason they get that name.

Ground fighting techniques should also be designed to either incapacitate your opponent or help you get up and on your feet as quickly as possible. Many street attacks are done in groups and getting kick in the head repeatedly is no circus act.

Weapons training is also good to incorporate, if you're squeamish about knives then kubatons can work wonders without all the blood. Some people try to use control methods with kubatons. Remember in an SD situation the object is to end it ASAP so controlling or trying to make them submit is counter productive.

Sticks of any kind can be used as weapons as well as umbrellas. Don't count on these to be around or be your main study area, since it's kinda conspicuous to carry a stick around all the time.

Remember avoiding SD situations is the best chance you have this comes from being aware of what's going on around you. Your final go to should be violence.


Thanks for reading and as always constructive suggestions are always welcome.


KOTF

How about a little critical enlightenment KOTF?

Lets say I have a couple of counter points and apologize in advance if I've taken anything out of context or MIS construed something?

I think ANY art that calls itself "Martial" should be weapon based.

Lets be perfectly real for a moment? DO you honestly think a pugilistic approach is right for SD?

"some type of punching and kicking art should be a good base for SD"

I try to teach my kids the most basic stuff... ESCAPES from common holds and evasion skills. Make them miss! Of course there are many uses for stomping and elbows, knees and head butting... Every tool has some use.

The advantage of being armed for SD purposes can not be stressed enough.

Pick something LEGAL for your state (country). Kubotons and other sticks are not in some states.

In America we can own guns and use them? A knife is a fine option as well in my opinion. Sadly a knife is more than slightly stigmatized by many courts...

I'm not going to endorse the "Gracie" approach to personal combat but there is a good deal to be said for PUTTING YOUR ATTACKERS ON THE GROUND.
Be it at gun point or "hands on" I will always prefer them FACE DOWN on the deck. Broken, bleeding or dead...

I gotta tell ya KOTF... The last thing I want for my girls to try to duke it out with someone trying to harm them... Does it seem even slightly absurd?

No less absurd than "grappling" on the ground for SD? A little girl VS violent felon? Give me a break?

What about those escapes and counters? A thumb lock (DESTRUCTION) EZ as pie right? Fingers... same. Same, eh? Wrist locks? Elbow attacks? There are SO many THINGS we can do with our hands and feet besides punch and kick... I think many of THOSE things are superior to a pugilistic approach.

Gotta run I type too slow and have a short little attention span.

Later

"Improvised weapons"

[kingoftheforest]

Mindset... Ive seen A LOT of folks get beat down because they refused to ACT under stress.

My twin daughters have both said that what I teach them is TOO BRUTAL or sanguinary. They don't have the constitution to inflict serious trauma.
I've told them both to get permits to carry a concealed weapon and buy a nice little .40 or .45 cal pistol.

This gives them a stand off capability and they won't have to break a finger nail trying to gouge out some idiot's eyeballs...

That's true mindset hurts a lot of people. Most people think they can just "cross that bridge when they come to it" that's a bad mindset to have.

odds are the other guy has been over , under and across that bridge more than once.

The gun is a good idea if you see the problem coming but what about sneak attacks.

It took my wife awhile to understand just how brutal actual combat/street fighting is.

[Tant01]

Mindset... Ive seen A LOT of folks get beat down because they refused to ACT under stress.

My twin daughters have both said that what I teach them is TOO BRUTAL or sanguinary. They don't have the constitution to inflict serious trauma.
I've told them both to get permits to carry a concealed weapon and buy a nice little .40 or .45 cal pistol.

This gives them a stand off capability and they won't have to break a finger nail trying to gouge out some idiot's eyeballs...

[kingoftheforest]

First and foremost I would like to define a few things so there is no confusion as to what is being discussed in this thread.

Self Defense is protecting yourself from an immediate threat to your life or well being. If any action is taken for a specific situation which you know is going to happen it is NOT SD. It would then be pre-meditation.

This first definition can be cleared up by the fact that awareness and avoidance are your two best techniques for SD.

Starting an altercation or frequenting places where you know an altercation may happen falls outside the realm of avoidance.


Awareness is not paranoia You don't have to look at everyone around you as a potential threat. Common sense tells you the 80 y/o women in the Wal-Mart is most likely not going to be an assailant. Except on Black Friday.
The 5 grubby looking teens loitering in the parking lot are another matter.

You should always be aware of who and what is around you and what they are doing. Assess the potential for threat and keep yourself positioned accordingly.

Now onto the martial aspect.

SD is to be used only in life or well being is endangered. Thus SD has to be taught almost like combat. If someone attacks you on the street or invades your home, you have to be mentally and physically prepared to deal with them. Subduing and opponent without injuring them is considered the highest form by most traditional arts. So unless you study and don't do alot else be prepared to injure (at the very least) your assailant. This isn't to say you have to have a KILL KILL KILL!!! mentality. But have the mindset that you're going all out right away, because you have no idea what the other guy is willing to do.

Deescalating a situation isn't always an option but should be your first go to.

As in the article UKE posted sometimes things just happen before you have a chance to be aware of them. You should practice these situations in class so you have at least a general feel and map of it in your mind, so you can react. Humans are creatures of habit, if you practice something enough it becomes instinctive.

Some of the skills necessary to defend yourself:

You can read the papers everyday and see stories of how people are attacked and how they do, or don't defend themselves. Hopefully these are never situations we find ourselves in but being prepared never hurts.

I feel that some type of punching and kicking art should be a good base for SD. Nothing fancy with spins and jumps. You're not trying to dazzle the "bad guys" unconscious. You want to expend as little energy with the most effect.

Multiple ranges are good to have too. Elbows and knees as well as hands and feet. You never know how close someone may be before things jump off. It's good to know your tools and have many to choose from.

While grappling and going to the ground aren't the most advantageous potions in a street/bar fight, you should cover these as well. Once again you never know where or when this may occur.

The grappling techniques you learn should be more of how to get the person off you and give you striking/running range. Judo has some nice throws that will usually give you some room to move or even knock out your assailant. Try to avoid suicide throws there's a reason they get that name.

Ground fighting techniques should also be designed to either incapacitate your opponent or help you get up and on your feet as quickly as possible. Many street attacks are done in groups and getting kick in the head repeatedly is no circus act.

Weapons training is also good to incorporate, if you're squeamish about knives then kubatons can work wonders without all the blood. Some people try to use control methods with kubatons. Remember in an SD situation the object is to end it ASAP so controlling or trying to make them submit is counter productive.

Sticks of any kind can be used as weapons as well as umbrellas. Don't count on these to be around or be your main study area, since it's kinda conspicuous to carry a stick around all the time.

Remember avoiding SD situations is the best chance you have this comes from being aware of what's going on around you. Your final go to should be violence.


Thanks for reading and as always constructive suggestions are always welcome.


KOTF