Best Martial Art for Self-Defense?

[jubaji]

You have kids running around believing that muay thai is actually viable for street violence

Who do you think is more likely to have had experience with violence in the streets, someone with many years of Muay Thai or someone with a few months of 'ABC Street Defense Co.' classes?

[jubaji]

Most of the best styles for self defense/urban combat .

How do you qualify which are "the best"?

[jubaji]

So I have to shake my head when someone suggests that "getting out what you put in" applies in this context. Olympic styled boxers, wrestlers, judoka and tae kwon do competitors probably put in more time and effort than most MMA competitors. They train for years since their youth to improve and compete for gold.

Does that mean that they would even win in the ring against top MMA guys? .

False comparison, as someone who trained MMA exclusively for years and years would not be likely to win against top guys in boxing, wrestling, judo, etc.

[jubaji]

Anyone who has trained in a live and realistic manner.

Describe your idea of "a live and realistic manner."

[jubaji]

I'm not saying that training in any one school will make you invincible. I am saying that training at a proper SD school in a matter of weeks or months will BETTER prepare one for most violent situations,

Yeah, a couple of months of playing make-believe and never actually doing most of the things you would supposedly bet your ass on is much better than years and years of developing and testing actual physical skills and attributes.

One of the best preparations for dealing with a violent situation is being in an actual violent situation. That's problematic, but playing "you go here, and I go there, and now like this, and like that and...see here? I woulda killed ya just like that!" is no substitution.

If people have applicable physical and mental attributes and a set of skills they can be confident in because they've actually exercised them against real opposition thousands and thousands of times over a period of years I'd count them as more likely to get home than someone who spent two months screaming at a guy in a padded suit, playing make-believe, and got a free T-shirt at the seminar.

Fortunately, most T-shirt collectors will never have to actually 'play' out the 'scenarios' they walked through for a few months and can get around safely with a false sense of security. When you get right down to it, any sense of security is always false to a degree. In a violent situation my money is on whoever has actually been in violent situations before.

[jubaji]

I think what Uke is expressing is that on the street in an actual altercation is NOT the time to try to "adapt" what you've learned in the dojo for the streets.

It's certainly not the time to bet your ass on things you've never actually done, in real-time with real intent and real (not pretend or "here's what I coulda done") opposition before.

[jubaji]

You'd probably never think to use a knife if you needed a screwdriver? Even the wrong tool can work for SOME tasks...

Does the word "improvise" mean anything to you? Maybe you've never used a Vise Grip brand pliers? A Crescent brand adjustable open end wrench? What kind of "hammer" are YOU using? A shingle hammer can split kindling quite well... And the claw on many hammers can pull nails out almost as well as it can drive them, depending on a certain skill level and familiarity with the tool.

Skill is a name brand and so much more... lets talk about spurs?

What I was TRYING to say is you need a very ADAPTIVE approach to any kind of specialized training.

Press on...

Good post, well said.

[Uke]

First off thank you, Bullseye. I like your points as well.

Any curriculum purporting to deal with "reality" has to include (first and foremost) solutions to the sorts of situations the average perosn is liable to find themselves in. This would obviously include worse case scenarios as well.

This is very true, but many schools, in the spirit of making money and stringing students along at a slower pace, don't even cover weapons until a student approaches black belt status.

Its funny IMO that when you go to some schools nowadays they try to include some sort of FMA as a means to prepare their students for weapons in the street ... not taking into account that 95% of FMA is formalized into traditional dance-like footwork and flourishing sticks/blades in a dueling manner.

Even Gracie Jujitsu is offering weapon disarms(which I find hilarious) when weapons have NEVER been part of their curriculum before. It’s a quick attempt at doing a thing that has become something of buzzword or rather catchphrase in the MA world:

"Filling the holes in one's game"

.... which is bullshit from the start. Using that term implies that one has a solid base(in the context of combating violence) on which to build on in the first place.

They don't.

Using BJJ or ANY combat sport(wrestling/boxing/judo/wushu/capoeira/sambo/taekwondo/etc) as a basis to approach any potentially deadly situation could work, but the approach itself if so flawed as it pertains to safety during a violent altercation that it is actually counterproductive to train your muscle memory/responses that way if surviving non-choreographed and non-competitive violence is your goal.

The Gracies have in recent years admitted that their claims in the past have been incredibly misleading, and now feature a disclaimer that declares GJJ is a sport and using such techniques in violent street encounters will get you killed. They also admit that the techniques were not designed for such a thing despite former claims stating that GJJ is like a bulletproof shield.

I give credit to the Gracies for implementing that disclaimer on all of their video products. That kind of candor is VERY rare in the martial arts world where everyone wants their style to be all things to all people. Unfortunately other styles haven't followed suit and continue to pretend that adding some BJJ and FMA crash courses will "patch up" their system and make it solid and realistic self defense.

That's why its bullshit:

If you are adding arnis/kali to let's say ... wrestling ... in order to combat violence, then just call it arnis or kali!!!! Don't pretend that you'd shoot in and start performing kali maneuvers once inside. Grouping systems together in order call your own "complete" is just plain stupid.

Most of the best styles for self defense/urban combat are eclectic, but that doesn't mean that they are chock full of systems so that they "appear" to be well structured. Either they are or they aren't, but many of today's newer, so-called crosstraining systems simply address "ranges" .. meaning fighting from the outside, inside and on the ground .. when there is ONLY ONE range in self defense. And that is CLOSE QUARTERS!

You have kids running around believing that muay thai is actually viable for street violence because it’s very effective in the ring, but they don't realize that violence ain't a bout or a match. It’s quick. Its dirty. It’s fucked up. But more than anything, it’s UP CLOSE. It’s absolutely up close. You can't justify shooting someone 30 feet away who had a knife any more than you thaibox him from that far. Its not until he's in close proximity that you can actually deal with violence.

Some people like to argue that "this and that will only serve to enhance or benefit your training", but if you don't have the nuts and bolts down on what it is you're training to accomplish first, you're just convoluting your progress.

What I especially liked about your post Bullseye was that you acknowledge that too many schools tend to put 85% of their emphasis on awareness and avoidance. And like you said, those elements ARE important but few people need to be schooled in how to observe or run. So how can they justify charging what they do in order to tell you to look around and then run? Shouldn't they be putting the heaviest emphasis on how to be capable of dealing with the worst case scenarios to the very BEST of your ability?

The next logical question would be "How many schools actually do this?” The answer is many try but very few do it well. And even less than that do it with excellence.

In this new age of McDojos and full page ads in MA magazines, everyone who has ever practiced anything wants their art to thrive. No one wants to start from the beginning[in the way of learning modern and practical self defense], so they tend to "modify" their bread and butter into a hot mess. It’s great that some are now beginning to recognize that what they do isn't the best way to get the job done(as it pertains to violence), but emptying EVERYTHING into a pot ain’t the answer either.

And once people get to a point where they refuse to accept that some ways are light years better than others to get something done, they'll begin saying crazy shit like "calculate scenarios in a split moment" or "change what you've trained for into something different than what you've trained years for in the split second before a bat lands on your skull".

[Bullseye]

"Most people know how to run.
Most people know how to observe.
Most people know how to beg for their life.
But most people don't know how to defend themselves or their loved ones when violence is ALREADY upon them"

That is a very good point.

A lot of RBSD systems emphasize the above (well the fisrt two anyway). However, I think most of us got into training because we were sick of running away. Or tired of being bullied. Or simply unwilling to be a victim.

I, personally, have no need to attend a class, seminar, or what have you, and be "taught" how to run away from danger, or talk my way out of/back down from a situation. I don't think anyone reading this board needs instruction in such things either. We know how to do these things.

Any curriculum purporting to deal with "reality" has to include (first and foremost) solutions to the sorts of situations the average perosn is liable to find themselves in. This would obviously include worse case scenarios as well. Once you can do something, you can choose whether to do something. It's vital to have the mental and physical tools to start with. Awareness/avoidance are of paramount importance, but it's essential to have a solid physical foundation.

[Uke]

I think what Uke is expressing is that on the street in an actual altercation is NOT the time to try to "adapt" what you've learned in the dojo for the streets.

I'd certainly hope if you were building a structure you'd keep safety in mind and not use half assed tools to do the job.

Absolutely, DJForest.

LMAOOO .. freakin adapt. That's that Mike Brewer bullshit that sells the idea that, when someone is swinging at your head with a brick and his friends are running over to help him, you have time to plan, calculate, consider and weigh your options.

That kind of adaptation is called a dirtnap.

Anyone who has trained in a live and realistic manner knows that ALL of your choices, responses and decisions in combat will be based off of HOW YOU WERE TRAINED. That is why there is no right answer to the question "If an attacker does this, what should you do?". There is no right answer because you don't know what you will do. Its based off of a trained reaction. If you have the luxury of having a "heads up" before you're attacked then sure ... you can begin planning an exit strategy or a plan of attack. But that ain't what most of us train for.

Most people know how to run.
Most people know how to observe.
Most people know how to beg for their life.
But most people don't know how to defend themselves or their loved ones when violence is ALREADY upon them.

And believing that what you already do can be adapted to dealing with real, bad-intentions violence IN THE MOMENT just because you've put in a lot of time and energy on the mat is foolish if what you've been practicing isn't meant for violence ... like Olympic-style judo, Olympic-style tae kwon do, kickboxing, boxing, BJJ, wushu, capoeira, wrestling, etc.

What all of those listed styles and style like them have in common is that NONE of them deal with elements found in violent situations. They all just focus on competition with a resisting opponent who simply won't let you have your way without struggle.

So I have to shake my head when someone suggests that "getting out what you put in" applies in this context. Olympic styled boxers, wrestlers, judoka and tae kwon do competitors probably put in more time and effort than most MMA competitors. They train for years since their youth to improve and compete for gold.

Does that mean that they would even win in the ring against top MMA guys?

So what makes anyone think that they'd(Olympic fighter) have even a decent chance against a trained knife man who happens to have intentions of ripping them open?

At least against an MMA opponent an Olympic fighter has some experience with contact. Against a man with a blade every time he attempts contact is potentially deadly for him. Kicking, punching or shooting in and MISSING is an opening to be opened up.

So how does a man, who like I said has probably put in more time and effort than any other contact sport fighter, adapt in that situation?

He's done everything that Tant said to do. He's put in the time and the effort. He's worked his ass off nonstop for years. Yet he's bleeding all over the place.

Why is that?

Its the same reason why you don't attempt rolling leg locks in the parking lot of a nightclub. Its the same reason why you wouldn't charge in to suplex a guy who already produced a knife. Its the same reason why Lee Murray, a trained and skilled MMA fighter, thought that the time and effort that he put in training would be enough to help him "adapt" when facing a lesser skilled fighter who happened to have a blade.

Not every tool is meant for every job, or even for jury-rigging a job.

But anyone can roll the dice the way they like.

[Uke]

You'd probably never think to use a knife if you needed a screwdriver? Even the wrong tool can work for SOME tasks...

Does the word "improvise" mean anything to you? Maybe you've never used a Vise Grip brand pliers? A Crescent brand adjustable open end wrench? What kind of "hammer" are YOU using? A shingle hammer can split kindling quite well... And the claw on many hammers can pull nails out almost as well as it can drive them, depending on a certain skill level and familiarity with the tool.

Skill is a name brand and so much more... lets talk about spurs?

What I was TRYING to say is you need a very ADAPTIVE approach to any kind of specialized training.

Press on...

Well that is what you were trying to say, but it isn't what you said. A lot of people feel the same way as you do.

All I'm saying is that with enough practice and dedication one could probably get ANYTHING to work as a form of SD. That said, is it worth it? For most people, it simply isn't.

Why would someone spend 20 years trying to get proficient in REAL combat using say .... capoeira .... when they could learn and practice a modern set of SD skills and have usable skills in a matter of weeks or months(with intense training)?

THAT'S what I'M saying.

Yeah ... improvisation is important, but its just as important to know WHEN to improvise. Let's face it: Any fight you find yourself in that isn't choreographed is improvised, but when you have people suplexing guys that have already produced knives ... and just because they survive the ordeal they call it adaptive ... that's bullshit IMO.

There's a big difference between HAVING to improvise and having been trained so shitty that everything outside of "playing tackle" calls for improvisation. When you're at a point where you try to suplex EVERYTHING or use any one particular basic skill to address any and every form of violence you encounter then there's a problem.

Some people actually think of the above scenario as being ADAPTIVE. I do not.

I see it as being desperate because one lacks proper training.

I'm not saying that training in any one school will make you invincible. I am saying that training at a proper SD school will BETTER prepare one for most violent situations, but there are no guarantees in life.

Getting back to White Shadows comment ...

I noticed that some people brought up Vunak earlier in the thread. So I'll use something Vunak said.

Many love what Vunak has to teach. And alot of what Vunak teaches involves trapping/hubud drills. Yet Vunak has stated that trapping doesn't really work. Its fun. It fosters sensitivity. But it will get you hurt/killed in full out violence.

So if Vunak states this, yet PFS still teach this as a viable method of combat/violence management, doesn't that mean that while what Vunak teaches is popular it isn't all that effective if the man who put it together is telling you so? Or maybe he is wrong?

The point of all this is just because Vunak teaches something that he himself says doesn't work doesn't mean that just because HE'S teaching something, that will MAKE it work. A popular name attached to a subpar technique doesn't make that technique more practical.

And so TANT01, what I was TRYING to say is that you can practice something all you want and put in as much as you like. If it isn't designed to accomplish a thing you'd have to become extraordinary at just that one technique just to get it to function like you need it to when you need it to. Which is why I agreed with White Shadow.

I know I know ... not that you care.

LMAOOOOOOOO!

[kingoftheforest]

You'd probably never think to use a knife if you needed a screwdriver? Even the wrong tool can work for SOME tasks...

Does the word "improvise" mean anything to you? Maybe you've never used a Vise Grip brand pliers? A Crescent brand adjustable open end wrench? What kind of "hammer" are YOU using? A shingle hammer can split kindling quite well... And the claw on many hammers can pull nails out almost as well as it can drive them, depending on a certain skill level and familiarity with the tool.

Skill is a name brand and so much more... lets talk about spurs?

What I was TRYING to say is you need a very ADAPTIVE approach to any kind of specialized training.

Press on...

I think what Uke is expressing is that on the street in an actual altercation is NOT the time to try to "adapt" what you've learned in the dojo for the streets.

I'd certainly hope if you were building a structure you'd keep safety in mind and not use half assed tools to do the job.

[Uke]

I disagree. There are many MA's/SD training that are great in the classroom, but on the street, people will get hurt. I've seen it and personally experienced it.

In my many years of TKD - TSD - Hapkido training therwas many, many hours of repetitive blocks, kicks, reverse punches, kata, etc. -- while all of that gave me a great foundation to learning "street fighting tactics" -- if I had tried to use 'dojo' training in a street fight, I'd have lost!

Well said!

So many people like to pretend that any and every MA is suitable for any job. That simply isn't true!

I'm glad someone said it.

Its almost like saying that a hammer is suitable to do the job of a wrench ... or a saw is suitable to do the job of a screwdriver.

Nice comment, White Shadow.

[martiallist]

Senshido looks very effective.

Senshido International | martiallist.com – free martial arts school directory and classifieds

[Bootweasel]

I like training in different styles, but I also find it quite frustrating when the training overlaps with contradictory techniques.