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[mrniceguy148]

Oh I wasn't suggesting any "magic formulas" for "invincibility" (that's for another thread ), just willpower, training, and the determination to test things that society brainwashes us to take for granted. The fact remains that there were women who dueled the 3,000 best swordsmen of an entire nation and won, there were women who fought alongside men as equals, and there were women who led successful armies into battle. Just like great men in history reflect the potential of all men, so do these great women reflect the potential of all women.

But whether a man or a woman is capable of reaching that potential depends largely on whether or not they are willing to push themselves past the limits placed on them by society more than the limits of their physical bodies. Our athletic ability and stature do play a very large part in what physical feats we can accomplish, but if we let society beat us down before we see for ourselves what our capabilities actually are, then you would never see these extraordinary individuals.

It seems that it is taken for granted that height, weight, and strength are huge factors in a fight, and I know there is a very good reason why that is so - the primary being taking and giving powerful hits. But it still seems too crude for them to be the sole deciding factor in a fight, otherwise, why bother learning a martial art at all? A trained person should have certain advantages over an untrained person. Of course, tall, heavy, strong people can also be trained.

But could it be that people have focussed on the easy advantages of height, weight, and strength for so long, that they have overlooked or seldom deveoped serious strategies focussed on speed (not just as related to striking, but also as related to dodging), evasion, flexibility, lightness, stealth, and smallness? Not getting hit - what a concept! Hard to pull off, yah, but still possible. I guess we won't know until some real Tai Chi Chuan or Bagua artists enter a MMA tournament. It's hard to hold off an opponent for long (but can give you chance to run away), and the majority of fights do end up clinched or on the ground, but that's what BJJ (a relatively weight-neutral MA) is for.

It is good that you don't judge people based on gender, and that is all I was suggesting in the original post. Do not say that "a woman wouldn't be able to go up against a 6'2" 200lb man," because a 5'7" 140lb male would have the exact same chance against such a man (read: there is a chance). Instead of seeing the outcome of a fight or competition based on sex, it is wiser to see it as a sum of relevant statistics, such as an individual's height, strength, agility, dexterity, speed, power, endurance, skill, toughness, strategy, intelligence, and so on. As you (and many others) note, there are people out there capable of generating much more force, speed, and ferocity than a superficial evaluation of them would suggest, and they might use tactics you are entirely unprepared for.

Hi Mulan,

Everything you say here has it‘s merits. In truth, the only real truth in this world is, “There are no truths”. LOL !!

Actually, I probably do have the firepower to put a guy like Mike Tyson to sleep permanently. So do allot of women. However, I’d hate to see the probable outcomes if we went ahead and put that theory into practice.

I just wanted to say that, contrary to popular belief, BJJ does rely on strength and power for many of it’s techniques, and in reality it’s actually best suited for a stronger person to use against a weaker person. The problem with going to the ground with someone who’s much bigger than you is in physically getting him off of you. Also, if he’s resisting then his sheer size and strength might make it impossible for a smaller person to put him in a joint lock or a submission hold. He might be too heavy to move, and if he’s also holding you by the throat while punching your face into the concrete, well…….you might have only seconds left to live.

You said,

“Just like great men in history reflect the potential of all men, so do these great women reflect the potential of all women‘.

I don’t agree with this at all even though I realize that you qualified it afterwards. I feel that one of the most psychologically destructive things being done in our society today is holding these so called “great men and women” up as examples of what we can all become. Most people will never be great at anything they try and by pointing to people like Andre Agassi, Serina Williams, Arnold Schwartznegger and Kathy Long and saying “we can all be just like them if we work hard enough” is a recipe for disappointment and needless self doubt. However, we can copy their work ethic and apply it to our own level of ability. When I was a kid I thought that I could be just like Mickey Mantle and Stan Smith. I was shattered when I realized that it just was never going to happen……..

The truth of the matter is, most great people (at least athletes) are born great and any extra work they put in just makes them that much greater. Jimmy Conners had the most half-assed practice routine you’ll ever see, but he was still the #1 tennis player in the world for years in the 1970’s. Ditto for John McEnroe. If hard work and dedication had anything to due with their success then those two clowns would have been flipping burgers someplace! Lawrence Taylor never touched a weight set in his life but he was still the best athlete in the NFL during the 1980’s. Mickey Mantle and Babe Ruth were party animals; and they never worked out, but we still know how great they were. Walter Johnson was a raging alcoholic but that didn’t stop him from winning 400 baseball games! The list of total ****-ups, who also happened to be great, is endless! The bottom line is that hard work and dedication will only take you so far. It’s actually raw talent that makes an athlete great, or even good. In most sports, people usually find out how good they can become within the first year.

Don’t get me wrong. Everyone should test themselves at something and try to be the best that they can be. I’ve already gone through that process and I pretty much know where I stand. Good luck on your journey!

If you’re thinking about getting into the martial arts for self defense purposes then probably you’re best bet is to take one of the striking arts like TKD, JKD, kempo, etc.,….and if you have time, then some judo or BJJ would be excellent additions to your training. Realistically, an attack can happen so fast that you might not have time to use any of this finesse and evasion stuff. Assuming that you’re attacker is much larger than you, then your best chance of escape is to just hit him hard and hit him first. That’s the “X factor” that gives any women, and guys like me, a fighting chance against any enraged lunatic. There are, of course, many effective holds and takedowns that you can also learn, but realistically, you’ll probably find that you’ll have to soften the guy up first with a few well placed strikes before you can take him to the ground. Also, the longer the fight drags on the greater chance you have of being hurt yourself. That’s why I feel that “stun and run” is the way to go when at all possible.

There’s allot of hocus pocus and mumbo jumbo in the martial arts these days so you have to choose wisely……… It’s getting late…….yawn……….

Take care,
Mr. Niceguy

[mrniceguy148]

You can do what you want...If you work hard enough you can make your dreams come true...No bad dead goes unpunished...If you ignore people they'll go away. These are all stupid sayings that stupid promote and end up causing problems. Sometimes some of them are true, but to make a statement that applies to everything is a searious oversight. Usually its people who have had little life expierence and have been sheltered in some way who say things like this. Its really pathetic when people waste their lifes trying to acheive the impossible, e.g. a blind pearson becoming a prison guard.

Hi Hand to Hand,

This is true with some things, such as academics, but I was specifically refering to sports. Think back to when you were in high school. The most talented athletes were the stars and the also rans sat on the bench. You can't coach great qualities like breakaway speed, great foot-speed and jumping ability, superior hand-eye coordination, an explosive throwing arm, great punching and kicking ability, or brute kick-ass fighting ability.etc.,... With hard work, anyone can become functional, but few can become really good and even fewer can become great. Sorry, I've seen too many "do-nothing" great athletes steal the tennis trophy to know that this isn't true. That's why we've heard these stories about black- belts getting beaten up by drunken brutes! Wake up and smell the coffee friend!

Take care,

Mr. Niceguy

[Tom Yum]

She then asked me what my dream was, so i said; to become a cop and beat the snot out of people. Her response was how about going to the finest law enforcement school. Honestly there are law enforcement classes, and training centers but not schools to my knowladge, besides some degree doesnt help you when you're in a shootout, or wrestling with a drunk.

You should look into the Marines or Army H2H. I'm not much older than you - just a young college kid without much real life experience either.

One of the recruiters told me that being in the Marines can prepare you for a job in law enforcement.

[Tom Yum]

If the average women really wants to learn how to kick some serious ass then she’d better be willing to master at least one MA system, train full contact, and combine that with some serious time in the gym doing hard-core strength training!Then maybe we can talk about it!

I think you're right about that. Some women are plain tougher than others. There are some women that come out of the prison system and find their way to the ring that can hit like a m@*4er f!^kr. I kid you not, these women don't play around and can put their weight behind a cross because they've had to do it before to stop someone. But as you've said before this is the exception and most women don't like hitting things.

[Mulan]

Some women are plain tougher than others. There are some women that come out of the prison system and find their way to the ring that can hit like a m@*4er f!^kr. I kid you not, these women don't play around and can put their weight behind a cross because they've had to do it before to stop someone. But as you've said before this is the exception and most women don't like hitting things.

My entire point was:
1) Just because they don't like hitting things, doesn't mean they potentially can't
2) Those that seriously set out to hit things (and/or not get hit), do so very well

[mrniceguy148]

I think you're right about that. Some women are plain tougher than others. There are some women that come out of the prison system and find their way to the ring that can hit like a m@*4er f!^kr. I kid you not, these women don't play around and can put their weight behind a cross because they've had to do it before to stop someone. But as you've said before this is the exception and most women don't like hitting things.

If this is Mulan's grand plan for the future of womemkind then we're all in trouble! LOL !!

[mrniceguy148]

Exactly, i mean one who has slightly less talent and works hard can be one who doesnt work at all and has slightly more talent. But that's rarly the case, typically some people are just naturally so good that you dont have a chance. Not that you shouldnt do sports just for the fun of it, but just dont think you're going to become a pro because mommy and daddy are living vicariously through you...............

.........She then asked me what my dream was, so i said; to become a cop and beat the snot out of people. Her response was how about going to the finest law enforcement school. Honestly there are law enforcement classes, and training centers but not schools to my knowladge, besides some degree doesnt help you when you're in a shootout, or wrestling with a drunk.

BTW: I'm a freshman in highschool.

Hi Hand to Hand,

Damn, you’re only a freshman in high school? You seem to really have your shit together, which is more than I can say about myself when I was your age? LOL !!

Anyway, when I was in HS the #1 player on our varsity tennis team was also ranked #5 in the state and he was ranked nationally as well. The guy lived a few blocks from me and in the summertime we’d practice together a couple of times per week. This guy was an absolute stud. He could have been great at any sport he chose. He’d have been a great halfback but, instead, he played soccer in the fall. When I was still in middle school the guy taught me everything that he knew, knowing that I’d be playing HS varsity with him my freshman year. So I busted my ass for several years trying to get better and thinking that I could catch up to him. No way! It was hopeless! My friend didn’t work at his game any harder than I worked on mine, but the big difference was that he had world class talent while I only had enough talent to become functional. There was light years difference between his game and my game, and work ethic had nothing whatsoever to do with it. That’s just the way it goes sometimes. Lesson learned………….

Take care

Mr. Niceguy

[mrniceguy148]

My entire point was:

2) Those that seriously set out to hit things (and/or not get hit), do so very well

Hi Mulan,

This I agree with. I've been on the receiving end of some of these hits myself. So have two of my old friends from high school. Tom Yum raised a good point about prison women that’s not to far off base. The few women who I’ve known who can hit, actually have hit, and quite hard I might add! Although, in every case, just like male on female attacks, the women was the aggressor and the violence was senseless. I think that some women have a taste for doing violence but most never will.

In light of the above, I’ve come to the conclusion that domineering male chauvinist brainwashing has little or nothing to do with how women are conditioned to behave. It’s more primal than that. In the wild, lions are predators and rabbits run from predators, while at sea sharks eat big fish and big fish eat small fish. This is nothing more than simple instinct, adaptation and survival mechanisms at work. Therefore, when a guy attacks another person (man or women), either physically or verbally, he does it simply because he thinks that he can get away with it, and when a women attacks a guy she does it for the same reason. It’s not sexism at all! It’s animal dominance and opportunism! Nothing more and nothing less……..

IMHO, if women are serious about competing in the same arena with men, in sports, work, or military.,.etc.,…then they’ll just have to stop bitching and learn to deal with the same endless pissing contest that guys like me have had to put up with ever since nursery school It sucks; it’s not fair; but it is the law of the jungle! Now, that's real equality!

Your thoughts?

Mr. Niceguy

[Mulan]

In light of the above, I’ve come to the conclusion that domineering male chauvinist brainwashing has little or nothing to do with how women are conditioned to behave. It’s more primal than that. This is nothing more than simple instinct, adaptation and survival mechanisms at work. Therefore, when a guy attacks another person (man or women), either physically or verbally, he does it simply because he thinks that he can get away with it, and when a women attacks a guy she does it for the same reason. It’s not sexism at all! It’s animal dominance and opportunism! Nothing more and nothing less……..

Not sure what you're tryign to imply here. That men are predators and women are prey? Or just stronger beings (be they male or female) are predators and weaker ones are prey? Predators, prey and survival usually involves eating another being or upholding one's territory. Also, if you're talking about aggression within a species, it tends to be male vs male or female vs female, not male vs female or female vs male. Survival typically means survival of the female, since males are expendable from the evolutionary point of view. Sorry if this might sound sexist, but the natural world always has and always will revolve around the female of the species - of any species.

I dunno, I don't see how chauvinism fits into this. If something is to be primal, it has to be universal, and chauvinism isn't - it varies in degree and type from culture to culture, and in the earliest cultures didn't exist at all. I think sexism and chauvinism has more in common with racism than any survival instincts. That is, fear and exaggeration of perceived differences. Cultures that emphasize male-female differences typically have more sexism.

IMHO, if women are serious about competing in the same arena with men, in sports, work, or military.,.etc.,…then they’ll just have to stop bitching and learn to deal with the same endless pissing contest that guys like me have had to put up with ever since nursery school It sucks; it’s not fair; but it is the law of the jungle! Now, that's real equality!

OK, you lost me. Women bitching about what? And what pissing contest? You mean, like, competitiveness? I'm for equality... If women want to be firefighters, enter the combative military, compete in tournaments, or whatever else they want to do, they must meet the required standards - provided those standards are rational and actually relevant to the job (ie: no pulling insane numbers out of your ass just to keep women - and prolly a lot of men - out). I'm against all the crap about lowering physical standards to "accomodate" women. Be you woman or man, if you're not qualified for the job, you're not qualified for the job. Nothing law-of-the-jungle about it... just nobody's safety or efficiency needs to be compromised over this.

[Tom Yum]

No comment here.

[Mulan]

No he was saying is that people will do things just because they can get away with them. He wasnt saying anything about the male of female gender in piticular.

I agree that people will do things just because they can get away with them, but that doesn't have anything to do with survival or with why somebody would have the urge to slap a girl's ass or slap a guy in the face - that's cultural (in another culture, showing physical attraction or rejection would be expressed differently).

And oh yes we never said anything against women we just mentioned difference it is you that said that society revolved around the female of the species. To a certain extent yes, and to a certain extent no, unless you push it i'm not going to bother explaining it, but remember it takes two.

I didn't say society does, I said the natural world revolves around the female of any species. And that is a biological fact... you do need a hell lot more females for a species to survive than you need males, and a male's life typically consists of competing with other males for females. So, in the natural world, interaction is about most efficient survival (eating, mating), not just doing whatever you can get away with. I was pointing out the analogy didn't make sense to me.

How about women making women draft elibable, thats equality now isnt it?

I think that's a given, and they already are draftable in several countries.

[Tom Yum]

a male's life typically consists of competing with other males for females.

Yeah, guys will get competitive for a female, but the reverse is true. Did you ever watch the bachelor? Women clawing and scheming each other for this guy. It happens outside the tele as well.

[Mulan]

Now although we are now more sophisticated, and now have equals, friends, associates, we still have alot of the primiative being in us, not all of which is bad, ie survival skills.

Though this really has nothing to do with the thread, it's a pet peeve of mine so I'm gonna reply to it anyway, hehe. Interaction in the animal world is not limited to dominant/submissive... animals are very capable of treating each other as lifetime partners, equals, friends, associates, allies for common goals, etc.

Yeah, guys will get competitive for a female, but the reverse is true. Did you ever watch the bachelor? Women clawing and scheming each other for this guy. It happens outside the tele as well.

I already said earlier that I'm not a fan of evolutionary psychology and biological determinism(sp?)... I'm more on the culture/nurture side of the fence. It's just that mrniceguy148 made an analogy to survival and instincts in the natural world, so I replied as to how his analogy did not make sense to me within that context by referncing what I percieved to be important flaws in his survival/instincts argument as far as within-species interaction goes.

[Tom Yum]

True its cultural to have those urges, and it has little to do with survival its just an example of how people will do things that they shouldnt do because they know they can get away with it.

True for a high reproduction/survival rate in nature that's the case, although many females in many species have multiple offspring. As far as the example goes it was a modern example of establishing dominance, although the second could just be due to hornyness. Basically in interactions between animals there are the dominant ones and the submissive ones. Now although we are now more sophisticated, and now have equals, friends, associates, we still have alot of the primiative being in us, not all of which is bad, ie survival skills.

Wow, you just blew me away i expected you to tell my why women shouldnt be drafted because almost all people who support women in combat dont think that women should be drafted. Well i guess you are one of the few and rare true equal oportunity people, or at least so far.

Save your self stroking for the Sensei Saki room.

Your talents are usefull in areas that overlap your interests - you can easily see action and uphold the law in the military, foreign service, protection/body guard services and other areas as well, not just the police force. You've got options.

[mrniceguy148]

No he was saying is that people will do things just because they can get away with them. He wasnt saying anything about the male of female gender in piticular. An example is my slapping a girls ass because i know that i can get away with it, and she wont tell on me. Another example is a girl slapping a boy on the face because she's in a bad mood, because she knows he cant hit her back, and wont tell because if he does he'll be preceived as a pussy.

Well he said that this was his male chauvinist opninion, sarcastically, because he would be preceived as being on for stating the obvious. And oh yes we never said anything against women we just mentioned difference it is you that said that society revolved around the female of the species. To a certain extent yes, and to a certain extent no, unless you push it i'm not going to bother explaining it, but remember it takes two.

How about women making women draft elibable, thats equality now isnt it? I completely agree with you though about the lowering of stardards to accomadate women.

Anyways as a sidenote i feal that we nead affirmative action in basketball because whites, hispanics, and asians are under represented.

Hi H2H,

All good points here! BTW, it's about time we had some affirmitive action for guys like me who never finished college. The way I see it, at my age I could probably do allot of entry level jobs that require a BA better than most kids who just graduated. It'll never happen though......

I wanted to say also that f you’re planning on going into law enforcement then you should get a BA in criminal justice. You’ll make more money. Maybe you could be a detective after you get tired wrestling with drunks. Although, if you’re really into busting heads than maybe you'd be interested getting a job as a prison guard. Whatever you do, don't sell yourself short!

Take care,

Mr. Niceguy