Womens self defense, or MMA grappling?

[jubaji]

And when it came to you discussing your ideas about fighting in a SD situation your chosen method was to suplex a drunk guy who had come out of the bar. .

I never said that was my "chosen method," I simply recalled one time where that is what actually happened. One time out of many actual situations in the actual world - not in a training environment with half-speed sparring, plastic guns, or rubber knives. I never said that was what I 'planned' to do in every such situation nor did I ever advise anyone else to do the same. So here AGAIN you are being dishonest. AGAIN.

[jubaji]

Also, you've said in the past that running is the best option despite being shown that running isn't always an option. .

Did I ever say it was the only or best option in every situation? No, I did not. I've said a million times that circumstances determine the best course of action for a given situation. So here AGAIN we see you blatantly and shamelessly lying. In fact, show me the quote where I even said that it was the best option. Where is that quote?

You are a low-life, dishonest weasel.

[jubaji]

Oh really?



I'd say that qualifies.

Even that quote is not the categorical position you ascribe to it, and in any case is not a quote of mine yet you aslo attribute it to me. More dishonesty. This is your approach to discourse lately - telling lie upon lie. Do you have NO character whatsoever?

[Sagacious Lu]

And when it came to you discussing your ideas about fighting in a SD situation your chosen method was to suplex a drunk guy who had come out of the bar.

I've never said any such thing, that was one of Jubaji's threads you jackass.

[Uke]

Neither one of us said that. You lie AGAIN. This is really becoming a habit with you.

Oh really?

No, but I am saying that if they're facing a rapist with a weapon they have to decide whether it's worth their life to fight back. Whether it is or not is a personal question that's up to each individual to make. Most rapes aren't also murders...

I'd say that qualifies. Also, you've said in the past that running is the best option despite being shown that running isn't always an option. And when it came to you discussing your ideas about fighting in a SD situation your chosen method was to suplex a drunk guy who had come out of the bar.

This by your own admission.

If treelizard can't get out of a fcuking bear hug how in the hell is she going to belly to belly suplex her MMA buddies while they resist?

That's NOT what it is a euphemism for and you know it, you dishonest low-life. Are you going to pretend you don't know because you are scared of being marked by ill-considered comments you made while drunk?

You owe all the female posters here an apology.

I don't owe anybody shit. I'll say sorry because you seem all bent out of shape and I'm a better man than you and will acknowledge that I hurt your feelings. No one(not any females) seemed offended, but here you come raving with your man-gina. You got your sorry from me, but since we're making nice here why don't you keep quiet about shit that you don't know about? Namely self defense, combatives and traditional martial arts in general?

Feel free to go on and on about sumo, sushi, sake and all that other shit. Even wrestling, if it's actually about the practice of wrestling. You won't hear a thing from me. Hell, I'm sure that I can get TTE and KOTF on board with it too.

You keep up your end and we'll keep up ours.

[Uke]

Well, I think if someone was seriously worried about being attacked, I'd tell them to get a gun or move out of their house. Whatever they need to do.

I would emphasize consistent long-term training instead of a weekend WSD course. If they were insistent on taking a WSD course I'd recommend something like Blauer SPEAR, which is a lot more effective than WSD courses. Fightback isn't bad because they give so much information on WHY one might choose to fight back, but I think SPEAR is more likely to work because it's based on the startle/flinch response.

I think Blauer's SPEAR is a great option for women and I have mentioned him many times before. I don't necessarily agree with some of his methods, but Blauer is great with the psychological stuff. Check out the science of the sucker punch.

[Uke]

Well, I asked one guy to lift me up, and once he did I tried all my fancy moves to try to get out of getting picked up and guess what? They didn't work because the guy had leverage.

Actually, the guy managed to do what he did because he was expecting resistance and knew that you were going to fight back. I know you just don't get that but that fact isn't going to go away.

He knew how to use his body and wasn't responding in the way they train their muggers to.

They train muggers now?

So in this case the element of surprise was in the guys I tried it on (they didn't know what I was going to do) not the "muggers" (who have a set way they're trained to respond so the bullshit moves they show you in the weekend classes will work).

He didn't have to know what you were going to do. All he had to know was that you were going to do something. You don't attack strength. You attack weakness. Hence all the talk about not taking a stance. Not posturing up. Seeming scared and weak to give him a false sense of confidence. All those things are ideas that are beyond some people.

Now if a bad guy wanted to lift me up, do you really think it'd be a fucking surprise to him if I tried to do something to get out of it?

First off, many women who have never been in situations like that DON'T fight back. They are terrified, and the most they do is kick and scream. If you were to follow through with intent the method that they teach you would surprise a mugger because he wouldn't expect a woman to have that kind of fight in her.

What I want to know is what makes you an expert on women's self-defense?

We teach women's self defense and have been for years. We have very competent women who have been in mugging situations that have lived to tell about their ordeals. They understand that the WSD isn't making them into ring fighters who are going to compete. They know that they are getting familiar with a mindset and a group of concepts and tools that they can use to save their ass. They can actually use what they were taught, so i know it works. It boils down to you not being able to do it and calling Model Mugging crap because you walked away from it thinking you were going to compete with trained me who knew you were going to try "some moves" out.

Have you taken a Model Mugging class? Doubtful, because they don't allow men in the room unless they're the "muggers" getting beat up.

Hehehe ... you do know that some men take the classes too, right? Model Mugging, Prepare Inc are all the same similar programs. Melissa Soalt worked the Boston Model Mugging and I can tell you that I have complete confidence in what she teaches. She is accomplished at doing what she does.

And by the way, WSD classes don't teach to "attack someone from out of nowhere with a sucker punch." They are purely SD based. Which means the bad guy KNOWS what move they are trying to do.

That point went way over your head.

And no I was not saying "tell me if this move hurts" I wanted to see if it'd be effective against someone with a basic understanding of, say, leverage. And most of them didn't. And I was glad to find out that way rather than on the street.

That's exactly what you were doing. This debate is no different than the debate about small joint manipulation. There are plenty of people who will tell you that it doesn't work until you work it on them. In most untrained people's minds things don't work until they've felt the pain that comes along with proper execution.

But go ahead and keep promoting WSD classes to build some false confidence in women until they get themsleves in fucked up situations and learn the hard way. Because that's all those classes do.

I don't have to promote a damn thing. Let me explain something to you ... The people who I deal with are all capable and that's why people come to learn. We don't have to advertise or convince people that what we do works. People find out what works from those who "can", not from those who "can't". The schools that I've studied at aren't affiliated with Ms Soalt, but I have seen her work and teach. She may not be teaching anymore but she was teaching women to fight for their lives and survive. As she says its about becoming "fierce", not about learning how to fight better than trained men in one weekend. She has never said anything like that but some people only hear what they want to.

Maybe women have used MM to save their lives, but stats show that ANY kind of resistance is effective whether you take a course or not. And I bet there's an equal number of women who thought they were hot shit because they took some bullshit weekend course and ended up hurt or worse. The only difference is that you won't find their testimonials on some flashy website selling the courses you recommend.

What stats? And you're betting on your own conjecture like some other members in order to make it seem like you're writing something more substantial than it really is. I'm not talking about marketing. I'm talking about women who have been hurt who go to learn how not to be afraid to fight back and use what they learn at MM to survive. And they do.

I can't speak to every MM location in America, as there were quite a few, but I know what I have seen from them. Maybe it does suck where you are, but my posts were more about Melissa Soalt and her model mugging than it was about the marketing of MM itself.

If you don't want people to "study for about a week and then go out and get into a fist fight only to remark "That shit doesn't work!" then why the **** would you recommend a WEEKEND course? That's what I want to know.

I don't know what kind of scam you got suckered into that makes you seem so bitter, but the idea of MM/Prepare and similar programs isn't to teach people in depth martial arts. Its about showing the need for and bringing out the attitude that empowers a woman to take initiative to fight back. There are very basic techniques, but its the attitude that brings out the intent, and THAT is what makes Dr Ruthless so "fierce". She teaches women to fight for their lives with every fiber of their beings and not to let fear grip them into paralysis. She teaches them simple shocks, follow-ups and final blows that create an opportunity for them to run and get help. She teaches them not to be victims and in the heat of the moment to summon their inner rage and channel it with intent using basic gross motor skills.

Don't expect women to go to some weekend course hoping they've engrained the movements enough into their minds so that it will come in handy for them in their time of need. Because it won't.

Which is exactly why women shouldn't rely on WSD classes.

If you thought you were going in there to learn MMA or death touches then either you got taken or you believed what you allowed yourself to believe. Ms Soalt hasn't ever stated that one weekend with her will make someone "street lethal". Its a beginning. It brings women around other women who may have been raped or mugged, and shows them the reality of the situations. It shows them the need for the aforementioned inner rage and the need for focused intent. It shows them that by using those two things along with a willingness to fight back and the presence of mind to use the element of surprise a woman can fight and escape those situations.

Those are things that women need that they may not find in a regular class. They certainly won't learn that in MMA or boxing as they are taught to be relaxed, not fierce and ferocious.

So in the end, MM/Prepare and the like are beginnings not ends. They show you how to find the will and the focus to fight back. They give you simple proven methods to achieve that goal. They give an environment to do that in for one weekend. They don't however tell anyone not to continue their pursuit of SD like treeLizard is suggesting.

That was treelizard's own personal choice.

[treelizard]

It took a while but I read the whole entire thread. You were a major part of that discussion. Thanks for sharing.

No problem. That forum rocks. Lots of awesome fighters that post on there like Kelly Kobold, Rosi Sexton, Aisling Daly oh and Josh Barnett (who's one of my favorite fighters of all time). We had a good discussion on there too about the hyper-sexualization of women's sports. Good stuff.

[treelizard]

What would you tell woman? What would you teach your female students? What works and what is bullshit? Thanks, I'm taking a humble approach and I sometimes teach Woman, teenagers and girls.

Well, I think if someone was seriously worried about being attacked, I'd tell them to get a gun or move out of their house. Whatever they need to do.

I would emphasize consistent long-term training instead of a weekend WSD course. If they were insistent on taking a WSD course I'd recommend something like Blauer SPEAR, which is a lot more effective than WSD courses. Fightback isn't bad because they give so much information on WHY one might choose to fight back, but I think SPEAR is more likely to work because it's based on the startle/flinch response.

I'd use the I-method and make sure students practice against increasing resistance... and avoid courses where "muggers" are instructed to respond a certain way because it doesn't work on anybody else. I'd make sure that women had a realistic (not defeatist but not overly confident) attitude. I'd emphasize getting away from the situation if avoiding it in the first place didn't happen. I'd point out that you need really perfect technique which comes from years of practice to stand and bang with someone three times your weight which is why it's important to avoid/neutralize/escape. I'd recommend books like the Gift of Fear to teach about mindset and avoidance which is probably what's going to save somebody, not some flashy moves.

And I'd try to keep 'em training and coming back.

[Hardball]

There's a really good thread on this with a lot of people chiming in (and nobody posting bullshit wanna-be WSD videos) right here:
FighterGirls.com & FighterGirls.net :: View topic - Defense against stronger opponent on your back

It took a while but I read the whole entire thread. You were a major part of that discussion. Thanks for sharing.

[Hardball]

All I want to know is what could make a man an expert on a women's self-defense course that he's not even allowed to attend. That's all.

What would you tell woman? What would you teach your female students? What works and what is bullshit? Thanks, I'm taking a humble approach and I sometimes teach Woman, teenagers and girls.

[treelizard]

Tree, you gotta know by now that you cannot dare to so much as hint at disagreeing with Uke/TTE/KOTF on any aspect of anything they deem part of their 'territory' no matter what your actual lived experience may be.

All I want to know is what could make a man an expert on a women's self-defense course that he's not even allowed to attend. That's all.

[jubaji]

Have you ever taken a Model Mugging course?

No, I didn't think so.

Tree, you gotta know by now that you cannot dare to so much as hint at disagreeing with Uke/TTE/KOTF on any aspect of anything they deem part of their 'territory' no matter what your actual lived experience may be.

[jubaji]

Its just that Jubaji has to focus on the fact that I wrote "tang" as a euphemism for sex

That's NOT what it is a euphemism for and you know it, you dishonest low-life. Are you going to pretend you don't know because you are scared of being marked by ill-considered comments you made while drunk?

You owe all the female posters here an apology.

[treelizard]

Thanks for chiming in and helping us get back on topic. I'm sure there are other woman who are lurking in this thread. We want to hear from you, don't think that you can't contribute. We are here to learn both as practioners and instructors.

There's a really good thread on this with a lot of people chiming in (and nobody posting bullshit wanna-be WSD videos) right here:
FighterGirls.com & FighterGirls.net :: View topic - Defense against stronger opponent on your back