Womens self defense, or MMA grappling?

[Sagacious Lu]

You drove Boar crazy...

Now why would you bring him into this discussion? You certainly do sound like him sometimes...

[Sagacious Lu]

Lu, calm down. I didn't say that you said that. i quoted what you said.

I'm sure you just weren't paying attention when you threw that little tantrum. Since you did address me- WTF is it with you and that story of Jubaji's? Every time the guy diagrees with you you bring it up and it's getting boring.
Also, why are you so offended that Tree took a class that she didn't like? You've never taken the class so where do you get off telling her what she's doing wrong? For that matter why does it piss you off so much that she doesn't like that class?

[jubaji]

EVERY MM course in the country is a minimum of 20hrs with 2.5hr sessions? Wow, that's pretty specific. Is there some government agency that enforces that mandate?


Also nice that you snuck in a little jab on behalf of your impotent guru who can't get out of the basement.

[TTEscrima]

Have you ever taken a Model Mugging course?

No, I didn't think so.

No, I haven't but quite a few of my clients have. I see you claim you attended a couple of sessions and you keep calling MM a weekend course, It is not a weekend course. The MINIMUM amount of time to complete a MM training phase is 20 hours, the typical sessions are 2.5 hours, so you went once or twice and dropped out and began bad mouthing the system. You do realize that MM stresses they are based on operant conditioning don't you? Then surely you realize thats WHY the course is 20 hours long at minimum, because thats the minimum amount of time it takes for operant conditioning training to "take". 20 hours is the recognized standard for all military and LEO programs based on operant conditioning as well, but somehow you seem to think you can attend far less than the 20 hour minimum and still give a viable opinion of the effectiveness of the course you didn't complete.

I bet you've attended one or two classes of nearly every martial art school everywhere you have lived haven't you? You drove Boar crazy with PM's begging his help finding a teacher because you had worn out your welcome at every local school, you made him so sick with your incessant whining about every little thing and how you always had problems fitting into schools he told you to get lost too. Since you can't seem to stay in any system long enough to get a grasp of how they work you decide they all suck (you couldn't even complete a 20 hour course), perhaps its time you look inward and ask yourself why you have such a problem finding a stable source of instruction and training partners.

[jubaji]

Plus, unless you have something relevant to say its going to be like this.

What does that mean? Is that a declaration that you intend to go on blatantly lying? Stating that as your official policy now?

[jubaji]

I haven't been dishonest about a thing.

Are you kidding me? I have pointed out at least half a dozen lies you have posted in this thread alone. As usual, you just ignore the fact and hope that no one will notice once the thread has gone on a few more pages. Your propensity for lying appears to be downright pathological. You are a dishonest, no class, low-life and it's all right there for all to see.

[Uke]

See where your dishonesty gets you? Now you are trying to correct yourself and mitigate the damage. Why not just be honest from the get-go?

I haven't been dishonest about a thing. Your tale of suplexing is still there for anyone to read. Unless they've erased that too out of shame like they did with some other member's posts. Plus, unless you have something relevant to say its going to be like this.

[Uke]

I didn't ask for your help.

Well if we're going to post in that spirit then I never asked for your opinion!

I haven't been nasty to you. You're angry because I pointed out that it was foolish to try out "moves" that rely on the element of surprise and bad intentions on MMA buddies. We already established that the element of surprise was destroyed once you announced made it a session. Now I'll mention that if they were in fact your buddies you didn't attack them with the same ferocity that you would a mugger. Do MMA fighters regularly keep FIST suits around?

And you were right ... there are many, many women who have benefited from MM and what they teach. I guess they understood beforehand what they were actually going there to learn and didn't delude themselves into thinking that they were preparing for their UFC debut. Geez.

Any women looking to learn real self defense beyond a weekend course would do well to find Linda Ranson. She's the self defense and rape prevention chairperson for the National Women's Martial Arts Federation. She has real ability and is a great teacher. You won't be a black belt in a weekend, but if a women wanted to learn serious self defense geared for women, she's it. Very knowledgable, capable and humble ... and she's been teaching this stuff for years.

[jubaji]

See where your dishonesty gets you? Now you are trying to correct yourself and mitigate the damage. Why not just be honest from the get-go?

[Uke]

I've never said any such thing, that was one of Jubaji's threads you jackass.

Lu, calm down. I didn't say that you said that. i quoted what you said.

[treelizard]

If treelizard can't get out of a fcuking bear hug how in the hell is she going to belly to belly suplex her MMA buddies while they resist?

I didn't say I couldn't get out of a bear hug; I said that the bullshit MM teaches to get out of bear hugs doesn't work unless anybody that knows what they're doing.

So you can hope against hope that your "mugger" is some moron who will immediately fall over if you lean forward and have a tough attitude, or you can actually train in something that might work against resistance and test it out to see if it does.

Really though it only took me a couple hours to figure out which techniques would work better than the MM ones and it was pretty quick and easy.

They actually teach you to go to the ground when attacked so you can use your legs to defend yourself. I mean it really is shoddy, shitty SD.

[treelizard]

Check out the science of the sucker punch.

I didn't ask for your help.

[treelizard]

Actually, the guy managed to do what he did because he was expecting resistance and knew that you were going to fight back. I know you just don't get that but that fact isn't going to go away.

You really think a 200 lb guy lifting up a 135 lb woman with her leaning forward a little will work if he's not expecting it? Are you really that dumb?

They train muggers now?

Yes, they have extensive "mugger" training at the bullshit WSD courses that you recommend where they tell them how they are "supposed" to respond.

He didn't have to know what you were going to do. All he had to know was that you were going to do something. You don't attack strength. You attack weakness. Hence all the talk about not taking a stance. Not posturing up. Seeming scared and weak to give him a false sense of confidence. All those things are ideas that are beyond some people.

Wow, you really think a mugger wouldn't have any inkling of an idea that somebody might "do something"?

Wow.

Show me your statistical analysis of times where women successfully defended themselves against men because they seemed scared which threw the guy off. Good luck finding these!

First off, many women who have never been in situations like that DON'T fight back. They are terrified, and the most they do is kick and scream. If you were to follow through with intent the method that they teach you would surprise a mugger because he wouldn't expect a woman to have that kind of fight in her.

That's not what they teach you in Model Mugging. They actually DO teach you to kick and scream--and stats show that ANY kind of resistance helps more than doing nothing.

We teach women's self defense and have been for years. We have very competent women who have been in mugging situations that have lived to tell about their ordeals. They understand that the WSD isn't making them into ring fighters who are going to compete. They know that they are getting familiar with a mindset and a group of concepts and tools that they can use to save their ass. They can actually use what they were taught, so i know it works. It boils down to you not being able to do it and calling Model Mugging crap because you walked away from it thinking you were going to compete with trained me who knew you were going to try "some moves" out.

Many women without an inkling of self-defense have been in mugging situations and lived to tell about their ordeals. If your class was so great, maybe so many of your students wouldn't put themselves in those situations to begin with. Obviously you have a financial motive for teaching people shoddy self-defense and nobody will be able to talk you out of it. Hopefully the women you teach are smart enough to go elsewhere eventually or do the research on their own.

Hehehe ... you do know that some men take the classes too, right? Model Mugging, Prepare Inc are all the same similar programs. Melissa Soalt worked the Boston Model Mugging and I can tell you that I have complete confidence in what she teaches. She is accomplished at doing what she does.

They have men's classes but they are not the same.

If you can seriously watch the video and call it WSD then I have a river to sell you in Tucson... Oh wait, you're the one selling things...

That's exactly what you were doing. This debate is no different than the debate about small joint manipulation. There are plenty of people who will tell you that it doesn't work until you work it on them. In most untrained people's minds things don't work until they've felt the pain that comes along with proper execution.

People don't say it doesn't work, just that it won't work if you don't have proper positioning, that it's not something you can rely on, especially if the perp is methed out or something.

And by the way, most perps won't let go of someone who provides an inkling of ineffective resistance like the woman in the silly video you posted--they will grab harder. Unless they've been trained not to.

What stats? And you're betting on your own conjecture like some other members in order to make it seem like you're writing something more substantial than it really is. I'm not talking about marketing. I'm talking about women who have been hurt who go to learn how not to be afraid to fight back and use what they learn at MM to survive. And they do.

There are plenty of them. I'd be more than happy to do your research for you for a small fee.

I don't know what kind of scam you got suckered into that makes you seem so bitter, but the idea of MM/Prepare and similar programs isn't to teach people in depth martial arts. Its about showing the need for and bringing out the attitude that empowers a woman to take initiative to fight back. There are very basic techniques, but its the attitude that brings out the intent, and THAT is what makes Dr Ruthless so "fierce". She teaches women to fight for their lives with every fiber of their beings and not to let fear grip them into paralysis. She teaches them simple shocks, follow-ups and final blows that create an opportunity for them to run and get help. She teaches them not to be victims and in the heat of the moment to summon their inner rage and channel it with intent using basic gross motor skills.

All I'm saying is that their basic gross motor skills will only work on guys who don't know what they're doing. Which is fine, but don't spend hundreds of dollars taking classes for it.

Those are things that women need that they may not find in a regular class. They certainly won't learn that in MMA or boxing as they are taught to be relaxed, not fierce and ferocious.

MMA and boxing will teach you exactly the type of attitude you need to have because you are actually learning how to train against resistance, instead of some padded mugger who is trained to fall over if you lightly touch him.

[jubaji]

There are plenty of people who will tell you that it doesn't work until you work it on them.

In the club, at varying degrees of compliance.

[jubaji]

I don't owe anybody shit. I'll say sorry because you seem all bent out of shape and I'm a better man than you and will acknowledge that I hurt your feelings.

It sure seems as if whatever teeny tiny part of your brain still retains some shred of moral recognition feels guilty about your vulgar and classless comment by the way you are trying to spin, avoid, deny, and parse it out.

YOU are a better man than NO ONE.

You haven't hurt my feelings, but you have earned more disdain and have revealed your shallow and classless nature even more.

You DO owe the female members here an apology, but I don't suppose the likes of you will ever be man enough to give it. What a surprise from a no-class low life liar like you.