Men's Violence

[Shiela]

Braden

"You're quite right. I typed THE original post, and in one of my edits, replaced it with YOUR. It was an honest mistake, but nonetheless I apologize for the confusion it caused. Looking back, however, I don't see how this invalidates any of the related arguments."

NOW who's re-thinking earlier comments. Dude, you made a huge mistake. But that's not where your credibility was shot--it was when you said:

"If I knew you, the semantic structure of your language would change? Perhaps if I thought you were a 'nice person', it would make your logic more robust? "

You've blantantly admitted that you are reading my words w/ a preconcieved notion that I'm not a nice person based on the original post that I didn't even write! So YES that invalidates all your arguments--how can any one compete w/ that kind of BIAS??? BTW I'm very NICE at least my mom tells me so....

Ok, so from what I can tell you're either an 8th grade english teacher or an overzealous 2nd year law student.....Am I close???

Peace,

S

[Shiela]

Oh...and Rorny.....What does a 14 year old know about gettin' any??? The only thing you get is pimples! Haha!

S

[Braden]

Shiela

"NOW who's re-thinking earlier comments."

You still. This is curious... I say that a certain point doesn't require us to rethink earlier comments, and you reply with 'now you're advocating re-thinking earlier comments.'

"Dude, you made a huge mistake."

I made a small mistake, for which I openly apologized. Uh... dude.

"But that's not where your credibility was shot"

I'm glad we agree.

"You've blantantly admitted that you are reading my words w/ a preconcieved notion that I'm not a nice person based on the original post that I didn't even write!"

No, in fact, I did no such thing. In fact, I specifically stated I had no notions whatsoever as to your person-ness; to which you reply that I think you're not nice. Again, a curious reversal of meaning (see above for another example, and many others pointed out in previous posts)

"So YES that invalidates all your arguments"

It wouldn't even if it were true. However, since it's not true, there's no point even arguing about it. I never said I had a preconcieved notion that you're not a nice person, for any reason.

"Ok, so from what I can tell you're either an 8th grade english teacher or an overzealous 2nd year law student.....Am I close???"

No. And your reliance on ad hominems is unfortunate.

That, coupled with your insistence on reversing the meaning of what you read to suit your tastes (see above) indicates to me how far this discussion can do.

Moreover, you've constantly argued from a position that you are speaking from facts, facts which you can bring up at any moment to prove your position. Each post, I have asked you to do this. And each time, your response has been to go further towards attacking me as a person. Never have we seen even the slightest basis for these 'facts' you argue from. Now, they may very well exist, but it's clear that you have no access to them, and never had. I realize you'll never be honest on this point with the reader. But I hope you will be honest about it to yourself. And I hope this will inspire you to go out and find out what the facts are.

[Lightning&Earth]

WHOA

The exchanges of academic rhetoric here is quite astonishing.

Braden has critiqued well and brought up, in a more academic tone, what i have thought from the beginning, and that is that Sheila is a Twit and sites her own superficial knowledge based on what she has read and NOT what she has experienced.

if you are going to present a topic based on a subject dealing with issues, JUST BECAUSE YOU might be a part of that subject in a general way doesn NOT mean that you are experienced or able to present anything other than banter that serves to create trouble, disdain and passively aggresively insult others.
At least i have the gaul to insult you forthright, i guess thats my male inevitable violent behavior, shame on me(i slap my wrist).

aside from my sarcasm and sharpness ,this is an area that i HAVE EXPERIENCE IN and what I and many other rationally thinking and decent hearted, and sometimes brash, individuals will conclude that VIOLENCE IS VIOLECE AND IS NOT GENDER SPECIFIC.
it is not a FACT that men are more violent than women. it is UNFORTUNATE that men possess a more aggresive nature than women. but AS YOU WILL READ with all that is being posted here is that there are two sides to this issue. both equally important and both equally a problem in this world. there are cases in both men and women where violence and abuse are present.
the question is " what are we doing about it?" are we going on forums and posting these "studies" and then expecting this all for one one for all lets get together and bash men bandwagon?
or are we invloved in our community making positive steps to counsel men AND women in order to provide a better relationship between men and women.
oh and sheila,,,,this isnt a contest to see who has done more. i asked you what you were doing about it. and YOU said, "Nothing at the present moment". then you asked me and i TOLD YOU what i was doing or have done.

and where is Erica in all this? she hasnt posted with any replies lately.

Many Respects,,,lightning and earth

[anton]

Re: Men's Violence

Originally posted by Erica
About Men's Violence

Men hold sexist beliefs, and these beliefs fuel their choices to assault women with whom they are partnered.

This is either badly worded or expresses a sexist and offensive sentiment. As a man I am offended at being automatically assigned presumed beliefs by people who have never met me. Great example of how the new, radical arm of a movement that originally opposed gender-based stereotypes now carelessly alludes to, and indeed creates its own.

PS - I thought it would only be fair to inform any interested posters that I am a second year law student... though no-one has ever called me zealous (to any degree).

[anton]

Originally posted by Shiela

The fact that Pakistan and the others I mentioned HAS laws oppressive to women is the whole reason I bought it up. These laws were created by MEN to oppress them. And MEN are sooo not oppressed in US--MEN RUN the US. And laws aren't the issue BEHAVIOR is.

You alluded to countries that have oppressive gender-biased laws. Then you said "laws aren't the issue" - is that an implicit suggestion that your earlier example of Arabic/Islamic laws was irelevant?

Examples of legal/cultural/religious practices, which appear oppressive from the perspective of a western middle-class woman, taken from a different jurisdiction do not make for a great argumentative parallel with the allegedly concerted effort of all men to dominate the female gender.

[terry]

Well, there it is.

[Erica]

WOW~

Wow I missed out on a lot!

I finally finished the 6 month process of becoming a county police officer! WEEEHHH! - The lie detector test and the interview with the chief of police were the hardest. Oh.. and by the way all the tests physical and mental were the same for men and women.

I do not have a computer at home and have to use a computer where I teach at Agnes Scott - so that is why I have not chated/debated for awhile.

Shelia has some very good points. I think that Women's Self Defense is all about the women's experience and should be based on women's stories - self defense success stories and women's experiences in life. It is nice to have another women's voice online. I think the more women online, the more the men will see that many/most of us do have a simular out look on violence against us by men. We live in a different fear everyday than men do.

Lightning&Earth - I am sorry that your mother abused you. It sounds like you have learned a lot from the experience and have taken away some things that we can all learn from. Although, I do not agree with some of what you are saying. It would be nice if you could share some of what you have learned from your life experinces that I could teach children and young adults. I believe you can learn the most from listening to survivors stories and how they survived.

[anton]

BTW- More on topic: Don't get me wrong, statistically most violent crimes are committed by men, and almost all violent crimes against women are committed by men. I am all for as many women as possible learning to defend themselves (against men). I do not, however, appreciate it when people make sweeping blanket-statements about a category as wide as the male gender.

[cocoy]

statistically most violent crimes are comitted by men against men. Advice to women, dont think defense get a weapon and be the feeder.

[Kingston]

The begining of the end!

finally finished reading all 4 pages!
first i would like to say how much i enjoyed this thread so far!
i think some good points have been made on both sides here. I personaly enjoyed Brokenmace's input the most My opinion is that all men ARE violent just most of them dont feel the need to act on it.... i get this from the pure enjoyment "most" people get from games like grand theft auto, or those shootem up arcade games with the real guns. i know sometimes i wish some punk kid would "make my day" , but then again i get quite distruat when im a part of any type of violent act, even killing a spider! Yet i enjoy martial arts. As far as why 90% + of violence against women is by men is not shocking... any attacker no matter what is going to attack some one who he/she thinks has a good chance of controling, sadly "most" women are easy targets. It reminds me of football practice, with people smaller then me it was easy, and fun! But put in a guy even just 20 pounds heavyer and i would, to be honest, suck ass! its kinda like crime, the bigger will pick on the smaller. women, most of the time look smaller, sometimes even look weaker! So its no surprise they get attacked more by the commonly bigger humans... commonly being men. Violence against women, for me at least, has some comedic value (uh oh) dont get me wrong, (though some people will) violence against another person in any form is wrong. the idea of violence against women, being more important then violence against men is funny...i bet 99% of violence against men is commited by men!!

[Kingston]

(continueing from last reply, consider them one in the same)
and imaginary stat to help my argument, but its still hard to argue against. women want to be equal to men in every way, but not in the respect to physical violence (who would). Men go after smaller men, smaller men go after midgets!(that was a joke)
womens self defence is also kind of funny to me....what about mens self defence! we need it more! im sure if you add up violent crimes in general the majority would be against men! yet we need to worry about the womens safety, because women are delicate and the only way to protect them is to eliminate whats trying to hurt them....that is of course violent men...(i am being "somewhat" sarcastic in that last statement). The big issue is related to our culture, that women get dolls and men get guns as children, most women are "bred" to be what our cultural norm of "femininity" (did i even spell that right? lol) requires. i dont think violence against women have anything to do with womens rights....if anything it has more to do with mens rights as given examples of the double standerd earlyer in this discussion. for the issue of violence in general, we should not divide it between men and women! That in my opinion is saying that women are weak and cannot be properly defended under the same group of laws that men can. I say that there are alot of women out there that could wup my ass back to last Christmas! would me fighting them be violence against women? Or just violence? this double standerd, being a non violent man, is kind of insulting, i dude can kick my ass on the street (wich has never happened to me thank god) and would most likely be comended by his friends, (i would have to persue charges...) but if i was a woman of the same build and strength, that same man would be a monster! a horrible example of males trying to dominate women! of course because of social conditioning i think any man that would beet on a women is a spinless coward and should be tied up and beet on by small children and old ladies untill he realizes how weak he really is! i think abusive boyfriends are the lowest life form on earth, but what are abusive girlfriends? did you just happen to catch them at the wrong time of the month?
the dicotimy between equal rights for women and stopping violence against women, (as a seperate entity that is). is really just a reflecting of our north american culture and our need to mass generalize most issues, such as men are "geneticaly more physical" then women.... that mite at first seem like something women dont want to hear, and as stated in one of the first posts that women "tested in the airforce" i think did better under stress then men... (the post was by a women), it seems that some women want to put out that fact that women can make it in any arena side by side with men, so why not in regards to physical violence, it just doesn't make sense!
there is alot more to say on this issue but i feel like finishing now lol.
i would like to say again that both "sides" (another funny word for this issue) made good points, but some times people were cought up in the blame game, and the gender wars, and personal insults wich in the end only hurt there arguments, sometimes even if they were/are right there own "formula" of argueing diminished the value of there statements, as so valiantly showd by breden and his systematic breakdown of shiela's arguments. as far as my opinions om erica....it seems that shes another confused feminist (lol and i dont have any "proof" just my opinion). im sure im gunna get flamed for that.
anyway thanks for listening, and sorry about the two posts, its late i cant think strate, missed a few zeros on that 15000 character limit , oh and also, i apologize for the many (im sure) spelling mistakes.
thanks for your time i know my post was long

[Kingston]

a couple posts up erica says something about the more women that come talk on the forum the more men see that women share the same outlook on violence on them cuased by men. (i get this from her use of the word "us")

Well sister , guess what, many men have the same "outlook" on violence against us by men as women do.....IT SUCKS! men are in the same boat as women when it comes to violence....only men have it FAR FAR worse....(fighting urges to make a personel remark about you)

once agian ill say that its funny how women want to be equal with men (as they should be), when the whole basis of stoping violence against women (without mention of stoping violence against men) is based on a traditionaly "male" view that females are "weaker" then men.

p.s. i hope i havn't made to many enemies here
but i think everything i said has been fair
one more note, all my opinions are able to change with future information of life experience, so when responding to my response keep in mind im not trying to hurt anyone with my coments, and dont read into what i write so much, take it into consideration, and tell me what parts im mistaken on, and why
there's nothing i like more then being write, so if im not tell me so i can fix my mistake! thanks for you time

[Szczepankiewicz]

So basically what your saying Kingston is that you're riding the fence on this issue and will agree with whomever makes the best argument?

[Kingston]

heh, it doesn't matter whos wrong or right, it just matters who we "think" is wrong or right!

violence relating to victimizing people is wrong, im not riding the fence on that issue.

i think its important for everyone to be able to defend themselves, i also think that we need some violent people...who else is gunna shoot the afgans? lol

every argument has two sides, both are right, just one side is easier to argue, or one side is more "comfortable" to be accepted by the majority of our population.....dont forget cultural influences as well!

(arguments relating to personel opinions that is)

This doesn't mean that i dont take a stand on issues, it all depends on how those issues affect me....or how i "think" they would effect me if i was apart of those issues.

its fun to try and empithize with groups that i dont necesarily support, that way i can "truly" know were I stand, and gives me the dillusion of knowing "how things really are".

im at the end of my post and iv forgoten the point i was trying to make....oh well.

thanks for your time