Just the Facts

[lorne]

My bio (site provided to you earlier- you didn't bother to look):

I am the founder and director of ESCAPE Self Defense Programs. I am a 43 year old white male. My background includes extensive education, training, and teaching experience in exercise science, philosophy, crime prevention, criminal psy and behavior (including FBI and GBI criminal profiling studies), law enforcement defensive tactics, weapons (firearms/edged weapons/impact weapons/chemical weapons/stunning devices), martial arts and military combatives.
For the 13 years, I have volunteered my services as a rape crisis counselor, a public speaker, and a member of the training and development staff of all the Atlanta metro area rape crisis centers, battered women's shelters, etc. I have also done volunteer work with Men Stopping Violence, an internationally recognized batterer's intervention program.
The Georgia Crime Prevention Association, The Metro Atlanta Crime Commission, and The Georgia Security Council all sponsor me to provide self defense programs to corporations, government agencies, educational institutions, community groups, and the media.
I teach the ESCAPE program with a team of highly dedicated men and women instructors (including Erica!). Our team includes professional counselors, military and law enforcement professionals, 2 forensic investigators, academics, and martial artists. The Director of GEMA's Anti-Terrorist Department is on our instructor team (he's a great padded attacker!).
Since 1990, ESCAPE has been featured on every major television network, as well as in radio and print media.
I will not bore you with all of my degrees, certifications, and awards. If you would like to read my article, "The Truth and the Lies About Women's Self Defense," please visit my site at: https://www.geocities.com/escapeself...ndempowerment/
The article was first published by Emory University (where I teach frequently), and is in the current issue of Black Belt's newest publication, "Self Defense for Women Magazine."
I respect those of you who voiced your opinions respectfully. I would appreciate your response to my "Truth and Lies" article.
In case you are interested, the combat aspect of ESCAPE is heavily influenced by: IMPACT Personal Safety, Tony Blauer, Paul Vunak, Kely McClung, and Sammy Franco.

Thank you,


Lorne Coleman

[kengar]

Originally posted by Thai Bri
Poor guy. She never left an injury, or any evidence whatsoever of her crimes....... And he just couldn't leave her.

What was the headline? Weak AND stupid?

There have been quite a few cases of me being abused. Do you put the same comment for women who don't leave?


Lorne,
I read your article in the Women's Self Defense mag, Truth and Lies, and there is something that sticks out. You stated, 'Even the phrase "women's self-defense," implies that it is, in essence, somehow different from men's self-defense." You teach women's self defense & rape prevention yet you say there is no difference than other selfe defense training. I don't follow your logic.

When the media presents news coverage about a man being robbed at an ATM at night, do you ever hear anyone questioning what the man was doing at an ATM at night by himself, or suggesting that men should carry a pepper spray, a chemical agent, a stun gun, or any of the other personal safety devices which are heavily marketed to women?

If I walk down dark and dangerous streets by myself drunk and carring a fist full of dollars, I'm a dumbass. I don't deserve to be beat and robbed, but I used poor judgement and that is something that you should not do. It's a free country I should be able to do what ever I what. This statement says to me, 'I have an inferior complex and I'll do this to prove I can'. Do you tell your female students to not worry about getting drunk at parties to the point they can't control their actions? They have that right. But what do you tell them if they pass out and get raped?
Shouldn't you tell them about recognizing area's in their life making decisions that can help them in all aspects of their every day life. There are things that I do not do, that I have the RIGHT to do, but I don't because I want to aviod putting myself in a particular situation.



Ken

[kengar]

Lorne,
Only to be fair though, you do have good information in your articles. And I do believe you have a good program going that is benifiting alot of women.
I only disagree of some of your presentation.

[kengar]

ON another note: Wouldn't it have been great if you'd come in here and posted something beneficial to women that read this forum. The most active thread right now is not a productive one.

Don't worry Lorne, its not just the thread you have posted. There are several that are on here that are plain bullshit.

[Wearing Grey]

I agree with Kenger,

Although, my posts were BS as well as Kenger pointed out. Lorne, I think you do a good thing and that is respectable. Obviously you feel very emotional about your topic, but just because you are does not mean everyone else is.

So to come in and say WE are responsible about something is just not correct. I am not responsible for anyone but myself and my GF I know you want to get your info out there, but by implying that everyone has an obligation to your cause you will only get negative remarks (Like mine).

Futhermore, we all have to do what we have to do to sleep at night. If you feel like your mission is to combat violence against women then thats great, and I repsect you for that. It is a very noble thing. But that is not my mission. Just as I would not tell you that since your male you have a duty to combat (insert anything here). It is not at all realistic.

I do have to say though that your last post was a good one and if you would posted it first, then you would have probably gotten a really good response.

WG

[kengar]

Wearing Grey
Although, my posts were BS as well as Kenger pointed out.

I really wasn't talking about any replies in this thread. I think the way it started was a bit off and the replies reflected that. It's those other threads on here, "Can a women take a punch in the face by a Super Muai Thai Commando" garbage.

I think we all want to get to the same place, but maybe by different means. So what is most important?



Ken

[Wearing Grey]

Yep, your right. Agree with you totally. I think he may have gotten a much better response if said something about how people can stop violence rather than men are to blame for everything.

WG

[sk12879]

Originally posted by Wearing Grey
Yep, your right. Agree with you totally. I think he may have gotten a much better response if said something about how people can stop violence rather than men are to blame for everything.

WG

Yep...I agree with the quest of his organization. It was the presentation towards the rest of us that was offensive. But good luck to you Lorne.

[lorne]

As Bruce Lee stated:

Knowing is not enough, we must apply...

Willing is not enough, we must do...


I threw a flash grenade into this forum. For those of you who don't know, a flash grenade is intended to evoke, not to devastate. Many of your response posts reflected an intention to gain power and control, several using the very tactics men often use against women (i.e. Loon's logic is inferior; Loon's math is wrong; and of course the name calling and humiliation- a guy even called me a bitch on another thread. Very interesting, don't you think?). Did your coach ever call you "ladies" to insult you?

Many( not all )of you reinforced my assertions without realizing what you were doing. But some of you surprised me. A very few of you answered thoughtfully and respectfully. It is clear to me now that I went about this the wrong way.

I thank those few of you who participated respectfully and I apologize for insulting you.

I welcome further comments about my site/articles and I encourage (not challenge!) you to visit the sites of Men Stopping Violence and the Los Angeles Commission On Assaults Against Women.


Respectfully,


Lorne Coleman

[RBFC]

The approach taken was similar logically to saying that doctors who treat disease are not really helpful, but only the preventative medications and antibiotics, as well as preventative education. BOTH ARE NECESSARY.

Directing a disdainful post at individuals who, as a whole, probably care more about the safety and well-being of women than the general population, was a very poor strategy. The only way this can be received is with the attitude of "Lorne is the only one who truly knows how to do things right."

While I feel that the name-callers, etc. who addressed Lorne here went overboard, the reason they became so upset is totally justifiable. Debates, etc. are not "won" by calling your opponent a "dickhead", etc. (Return posters take note!) They are won by putting forth solid, reasonable arguments for your position. Likewise, Lorne immediately alienated nearly the entire readership with poor skills at "statesmanship". (I'll bet that his cause would be greatly helped if he learned to present his thoughts and concerns in a more diplomatic way).

Lorne obviously cares very much about the cause he champions, and he undoubtedly has done some research, etc. (What all he derived from that research is suspect...) However, he's on our side, but neither of us know it or want to admit it. Most doctors wouldn't appreciate the vitamin salesman telling customers that doctors aren't valuable. In the same light, those of us approaching personal safety/self defense from one angle are not necessarily BAD, but his passion for his certain position apparently leaves him no choice but to proclaim that "his is the way".

The example regarding MLK is a case in point to prove the necessity of interventional self-defense skills (although Lorne didn't intend it that way). The slaves were "freed" in the 1860's. MLK led the cause for civil rights approximately a century later. Even today, the cause still struggles to achieve the desired goal. In a like manner, changing societal values and beliefs to achieve the goal of male-awareness-kindness may also take 100 or more years. While Lorne speaks of a worthwhile "world", the truth is that it most likely will not be approached in our lifetimes. In the meantime, there will be thousands of women who will be attacked, and I (for one) intend to give them quickly usable SD skills to enhance THEIR safety, not just their great-grandchildren.

Overall, forums such as these are best used for the widespread distribution of easily digestible information, not for involving obviously (mostly) younger and less-experienced individuals in political scenarios which they can barely relate to. I'll stand by my earlier statement that when a much higher percentage of would-be rapists present themselves in ERs across the country with dangerous, nasty wounds, there will be a large decrease in rape reported. When CCW laws were enacted, every state with the law reported a drop in violent crime. By providing a specific set of tools for women to defend themselves effectively against rape, a similar decrease in crimes specific to them would also be seen.

Originally, after being involved in another debate of philosophy here that concerned a poster who gave no solid information, (but asked endless questions that only they supposedly had the right answers to) I PM'ed the moderators to ask that my registration at defend.net be cancelled. I stated that there simply was no "regulation and control" over the content and usefulness of the forum's information. I felt that my remaining in an attempt to provide useful information was a waste, considering the responses of readers. I still feel that a much firmer hand is needed to assist this forum in growing into a professional source of information and guidance. After reading this post, I must admit that the situation is similar to a bad car wreck: I FIND IT HARD TO LOOK AWAY! I also feel that if I don't stand up and speak out against obviously contrived information/positions, then I do women a disservice by allowing poor content to be presented to them. Therefore, I'll recant my position and hang around a while.

They may actually be called upon to defend themselves tonight, and the info they read here may be all they have to use. Long-winded political platform material will not save a woman's life tonight. Perhaps in the future, but not now.

In the meantime, there's nothing wrong with assisting women in any way we can. There are others (besides Lorne) who have good ideas as to how we can be of assistance. By doing what we are best at, providing good SD skills to women, we are making a difference right now. Persons like Lorne who are so single-mindedly directed toward one specific plan of action should concentrate their efforts on a segment of the population who would most likely fall into line more easily. Reasonable idea, wrong place and definitely wrong method of presentation here.

Lorne, it would serve you well to examine your methodology of presentation. You lost this battle just as you got started, because you only seemed to know one way to bring up a point. Throughout history, the greater majority of ideas which became publicly "noticed", etc. were presented by charismatic and diplomatic individuals, not by fire & brimstone screamers. Whatever your platform, your approach is hurting it. If you post this (or similar statements) on my forum, you will be gone quickly. I hope you learn from this experience.

Lee

[lorne]

Hey Lee,

I checked out your site. Nice.

Have you checked out mine? Have you read the article?

I would like to hear your opinion of it.


Thanks,

Lorne

[Tom Yum]

Lorne, we acknowledge that women can be at the receiving end of unfair treatment, physical assault, abuse and rape. Its not fair or just and those men who are negligent or guilty of such offenses have serious issues and should be dealt with.

What have I done to minimize those situations? First, I treat my girlfriend as an equal. We communicate. I don't spend time with the boys getting piss @ss drunk and then use her as a target of my frustrations - that is the psychology behind a large number of male/female violence issues where there is a relationship between the victim and abuser.

Likewise, she doesn't buy into the whole idea that women have an inborn right to be wishy-washy and caddy. So feminism is never her crutch for anything.

Second, the women whom I associate with as friends do not believe that feminism is like chi or some mystical force that gives them the right to walk into dangerous situations without good judgement. I suppose I choose to associate with women that have good common sense and smarts, so these issues never come up.

Women should have the right to wear what they want, when they want but should excercise appropriate judgement.

If I walk into Houston's 5th ward dressed in a giant chicken suit, do you think I will walk out alive just because I believe in 'chickenism'? Sure if I carry a gun I might survive, but I've stirred things up for no good reason, when I could have dressed more neutral for the environment.

If an attractive women goes to a hip hop night club that serves alcohol wearing skin tight clothes that reveal 70% of her privates, are guys going to ignore her appearance, act smug and respect her feminist beliefs? If that same women wears non revealing slacks and a nicely cut shirt, she could probably avoid some hassle from her choice of clothes alone.

"Popular feminism" twisted itself during the 90s and in some cases has become about having one's cake and eating it too.

Real feminism should not only be about defending rights, but also using good judgement outside of academic circles.

[Thai Bri]

RBFC - No. Debates are not won by calling them "dick head". But you can't debate with the politically correct. Its like trying to ask a religeous convert to imagine that God doesn't exist, or ask a racist to consider that people of different skin colours have the same inherent value.

They just can't comprehend it. They "know" they are right, and "know" that evryone else is wrong. So "dick head" is accurate after all.

[RBFC]

Bri Thai,

It all depends on how YOU wish to be perceived. Would you rather be observed as having well-thought-out opinions and educated reasoning, or as an arrogant individual with no more to say than use profanity?

It doesn't matter whether you agree with the "opponent" or not. You will not sway anyone else's opinion through the use of poor language. You might actually be able to win over other readers who were "on the fence" if you speak politely and back up your argument with some logical thinking. (You may be extremely intelligent, your posts don't portray you in the best light, however).

While I don't agree with Mr. Coleman's methodology and politics, we are all interested in reducing/eliminating rape and violent crime toward women. Men, who commit the vast majority of all crime, commit far more crime against other men rather than women. A more logical approach may be to gain a better understanding of the factors which lead men to commit crimes of all types. Then, by dissecting the pieces, discover the roots of male/female violence.

It might be similar to spending all your time attempting to cure the sore throat, when the flu has given you several other symptoms and ailments at the same time.

Lee

[Thai Bri]

To labout the analogy...... I don't have a sore throat. But Loone here says we all have AIDS.