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  • Article on how to react when approached by a policeman

    WHAT TO DO IF YOU GET STOPPED BY THE POLICE
    The legal system in the US is one arm of the octopus we call "The System." It was designed by and is used for the benefit of those who control our society. It was not designed to protect the "rights" of those who oppose capitalism or business as usual.

    Because of various historical accidents, there are aspects of the law that, at least in theory, protect individual "liberties." The law presumes, however, that everyone knows what these protections are and if you don't know what they are, it is very easy to "waive" these rights. Therefore, in the interest of giving us all an equal chance when we're confronted by the cops, here are some thoughts on the law of police stops and searches.
    This article is based on how things are supposed to be "in theory." The reality is that police can and will do anything they want out on the street. And they won't hesitate to lie about it later on.

    But some cops are worse than others and a lot of them may treat you differently if they think you know your rights. The police depend on fear and intimidation to get what they want. Don't let them get away with more than they are allowed to because of fear.

    If you run into a really bad cop, talking back to him and standing up for your rights might get you beaten up or killed, so be careful about the realistic limits of "the law" and of your rights in America. Cops are perhaps the most dangerous members of our society, so be careful when you talk to them.
    David Simon, a reporter for the Baltimore Sun in his book Homicide, pp. 204-220, shows how cops "trick" the ignorant into waiving right after right. The basic strategy he writes about involves bombarding the subject with so many questions that s/he doesn't think to say "I want to talk to a lawyer and I don't want to answer any questions until I do." Simon reports that cops follow the letter of the law, ignoring the spirit. Thus a subject who says "Maybe I should get a lawyer" is met with the response, "Maybe you should." Similarly: "Those few with heart enough to ask whether they are under arrest are often answered with a question: 'Why? Do you want to be?' -'No.' - 'Then sit the **** down.'"
    Cops are tricky. You have to be explicit in invoking your rights, otherwise you "waive" them.

    Preliminaries
    First, make absolutely sure that you are in fact dealing with a bona-fide police officer; impersonation of police officers by criminals is an increasing problem. Ask for idenfication from any non-uniformed person purporting to be a law enforcement officer.

    If, in a vehicle, you have any doubts as to whether the people attempting to stop you really are police (no flashing lightbar, no marked police car and/or no police uniforms or identification) KEEP DRIVING at a safe speed to the nearest police or fire station, open gas station or service plaza.
    If it really is police there will be more police cars appearing very shortly once you don't stop after the initial request to pull over. You should stop immediately at the appearance of additional police cars.

    If it is actually the police attempting to stop you, they will not be pleased that you didn't stop immediately, but they should understand your behavior and not hold it against you if you then deal with them correctly.
    Always keep your hands in plain sight and your arms at your sides when dealing with a police officer. Make no sudden moves and speak in a level, calm voice. Be very polite and to the point; insults and invective may feel good, but can only make your situation (much) worse.

    If you are stopped in your car at night, pull completely off the road, turn off your engine, lock your doors, roll up all windows except the driver's window and turn on the overhead light. Have your license, registration and proof of insurance out for the officer when he arrives at your vehicle. Your production of those items will be his first request during a normal traffic stop. Do not get out of your car unless told to.

    When a police officer stops you on the street, the law says that the stop will fall into one of 3 categories: consensual contact, detention or arrest. Which one you're in determines how badly they can **** with you.
    At one end is a "consensual contact." This means that the officer comes up to you and says "can I speak with you?" If you say "yes," you have consented to have contact with the police. That is very bad. The result of such "consent" is that you won't have various "rights" under the Constitution.

    Contact
    ESPECIALLY if you think you may be guilty of something (you have a warrant out on you, you are carrying drugs, you just did something illegal), NEVER consent to talk to a police officer. This sounds backward. The normal impulse when confronted with a cop is to be polite and try to convince them that you aren't doing anything. If you follow such an impulse, you are unlikely to actually convince the officer and if the cop gets you on something, you won't be able to get out of it later on in court. Never voluntarily talk to the police!

    If you don't think you are guilty of anything, it still isn't a good idea to consensually talk to the cop. You never know how the conversation will end up. And if people figure "well, I'm not guilty of anything so I'll let the police stop me and ask me a few questions now and then" the police state will be on the march. Further, it will encourage the idea that people who don't want to talk to the police have something to hide.
    How do I avoid a consensual contact? If the cop asks, "Can I talk to you" say something like "I'm sorry, I'm in a hurry and I don't have time to talk to you right now." If the cop insists, ask him "Are you detaining me? Am I free to leave?"

    Ask this several times to make sure the cop will have a hard time lying and saying you didn't mention it later on if you get to court. If it is really a consensual contact, the officer ought to let you go on your way if you ask to go. If you don't actually verbally ask to leave, the court will presume that you consented to whatever follows.

    Detentions
    The next category of citizen/police contact is called a detention. The police are only allowed to detain a citizen when there are "specific and articulable facts supporting suspicion" that you are involved in criminal activity. This means that they can't detain you on a "hunch."

    "Specific and articulable facts" (SAF) means that the police must have observed something about your behavior and character that links you with specific criminal activity. If the police detain you without SAF, the detention is illegal and whatever they obtain as a result of the detention (evidence or arrest) cannot be used against you in court.

    How does this all work in practice? Suppose the police stop you because it is late at night, you are walking around the city, "you look at them funny", look "strange" or are homeless or the wrong color.

    The officer says "Excuse me, may I talk to you?" You say alright. You have just consented to talk to the police. If the officer notices after talking to you for a while that you have spray paint on your finger or wheatpaste on you clothing, or notices a bulge in your coat, the officer can find cause to detain you and could eventually arrest you.

    If, however, you said "no, I have to go" the officer is supposed to let you go because he or she doesn't have SAF that you are involved in criminal activity just because you look funny and it is nighttime. The courts have found all of the facts mentioned above insufficient to justify a detention.
    If the cop says, "well, you can't go" or otherwise detains you, then if they do find reason to arrest you, you may be able to avoid the penalty because the original detention was illegal. If the officer detains you and finds nothing, you should complain to the city, the "police review commission" in your town (if there is one) and you should let COPWATCH know about what happened. (510-548-0425).

    Often (except as noted below), when you start throwing around terms lik e "detention" and "specific and articulable facts" the cop is going to lay off. A lot of the police's power is intimidation and the public's ignorance.

    It is crucial that you let the officer know that you are not "consenting" to talk to him and that the only way you will talk to him is if he detains you.
    There may be SAF in some circumstances. If you rob a bank wearing red pants and a string tie and are spotted 15 minutes later in those same clothes carrying a white money bag reported missing by the bank, the police will probably have SAF. There is nothing illegal about a police detention if they have SAF, but not just anything is a "specific and articulable fact" supporting suspicion that you are involved in criminal activity.

    The facts have to be very specific. A lot of "police harassment" situations involve the police stopping people because they "look wrong" and then going on "fishing expeditions" looking for a valid reason to arrest which they didn't have at the beginning of the stop. Don't give the officer a chance to find anything out - Just Say "No".

    What if the officer asks to search? More serious than consensual contact and detention is an arrest. For an arrest, the police need a high level of suspicion of your involvement in criminal activity. If you are arrested, the police can search you as part of the arrest.

    Searches
    If the officer asks to search you without arresting you, you can say "no." The police have the right to search for weapons if they feel in danger of being attacked. They are not allowed to search people for other items. In a lot of cases the police ask to search someone and obtain "consent" to search. Even though the search isn't justified, it will be legal because the citizen didn't object and therefore "consent" is presumed.

    If the officer asks to search you or any of your property, say no and ask if you are under arrest or if they have a warrant. If you aren't and they don't, tell them "I would rather not let you search." They may ask many times and seem to be acting with complete authority. Just Say No. You will not let them search you unless they arrest you or have a warrant, and you don't have a weapon.

    If they search anyway and find something, you may be able to escape the penalty later in court. If the cop is obeying the law, they should leave you alone. The fact that you refused to be searched does not make you more "suspicious" and give them an excuse to search.

    Of course as stated above, the police may ignore all of these laws and they may be less than polite and non-violent. When a cop gets out of control, deal with it carefully. But don't voluntarily consent to either a search or a detention.

    Arrest
    Once you are under arrest, offer no physical resistance, volunteer nothing and answer no questions. Nothing you can say will pevent your being handcuffed and taken to the station for booking. Anything you say can be used as evidence against you in court. Resistance to handcuffing and any police actions/orders will get you an automatic "Resisting Arrest" charge as well as any number of injuries as the police use whatever force they deem necessary against you until you comply with their directions. Your only response to any interrogation from the moment that you are told that you are under arrest should be "I want a lawyer".

    Karl makes some good points below, but please remember that the cop has a gun. "Contempt of cop" is a serious crime in the eyes of many police officers. -Craig
    From: karl@genesis.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger)
    >"Those few with heart enough to ask whether they are under arrest are
    >often answered with a question:
    >'Why? Do you want to be?'
    >'No.'
    >'Then sit the **** down.'"
    The correct response to "Why? Do you want to be?" is "You did not answer my question. Am I under arrest? If I am not I desire to leave now."
    That sharpens the point a little, but is still non-confrontational.
    The next round is to state that "Under the Constitution and Bill of Rights of the United States, I am free to leave unless I am being detained or under arrest. I desire to exercise those rights. I desire to leave now. May I leave?"
    If the discussion continues beyond this point you're probably detained or under arrest from a legal perspective. If you're still in the building at this point then your next utterance ought to be "I want a lawyer. Now."
    --
    Karl Denninger (karl@genesis.MCS.COM) | You can never please everyone except
    Modem Access: [+1 312 248-0900] | by bankrupting yourself.
    Voice & FAX: [+1 312 248-8649] | Internet in Chicago; a MCSNET first

  • #2
    H2H, you ignorant punk!

    You don't have to actually experience something to comment upon it! "

    Did you ever fall out of an 8th story window? Then what the hell do you know about what the results might be?"

    Besides, I don't think bjj was trying to pass himself off as an expert, he was apparently just sharing an interesting article he found. His mistake was in not giving due credit and thus appearing to be plagiarizing. Remember, this is the same guy who was trying to get us to do his school assignments!

    Comment


    • #3
      BTW, though it may be all well and good to know about these things, they seem to be applicable primarily towards helping the guilty. When an armed individual identifies himself as a law enforcement officer and stops you for questioning, searching, etc. he's probably already established "probable cause" in his mind. You're pretty much screwed and your best tactic is immediate appeasement, if not actual compliance. Any form of resistance will be perceived as a good reason for escalation;

      LEO; "Do you mind if we search your vehicle (home, person)?"
      You; "Yes, I do. Do you have a search warrant? Do you have probable cause? Am I under arrest?"
      LEO; "You are now, genius. What are you hiding? Your refusal is suspicious and therefore "probable cause". Turn around and put your hands on your head, please."

      Comment


      • #4
        I must've not stated clearly that it was just an article I found, my bad. I had no intention of plaigerizing.

        Besides, I don't think bjj was trying to pass himself off as an expert, he was apparently just sharing an interesting article he found. His mistake was in not giving due credit and thus appearing to be plagiarizing. Remember, this is the same guy who was trying to get us to do his school assignments!
        Whatever works

        Comment


        • #5
          As far as I'm concerned, it was obviously a shared article just from the title of the thread.

          Hey, I see you've changed your avatar from an anime flasher whipping open his cape to a sleepy li'l groundhog.

          How'd Charley treat you?

          Comment


          • #6
            How'd Charley treat you?
            I'm a lil bit slow on the draw... I don't get it >.<
            And here's a little bunny flicking off any kids who laugh at me
            (\../)
            (-_-)
            (t .t)
            (")(")

            Comment


            • #7
              With patriot2 they don't even need warrants anymore to search your home, car, person, tap your phones and read your emails or snoop your computers. Probable cause doesn’t mean shit. They can even hold you indefinitely without charging you now. All they have to say is your cousin has ties to a terrorist group somewhere.

              I remember once I was pulled over for speeding in California and the trooper asked to search my car, I said no. He said he will be right back and those bustards detained me there until they got a warrant to search my car. I guess refusing a search is grounds for a warrant. They found nothing and were pissed and cussed me up one side a down the other because I wasted their time! Can you believe the gull of these shit heads? Then they wonder why Joe public has a hard time trusting them. They think they are so misunderstood.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Bjjexpertise@be
                I'm a lil bit slow on the draw... I don't get it...
                (\../)
                (o_o)
                (t .t)
                (")(")
                Charley, you know, the hurricane? You're in Florida, ain'tcha? That's the latest questions you ask any Floridian these days; "How'd (Hurricane) Charley treat you?"

                Here's a pig or a dog or somethin', with a flat top crewcut, sticking his tongue out and squinting! Purty neat, huh?
                .
                .
                (\'''''/)
                (> <)
                ((..))
                ..U

                Comment


                • #9
                  H2H

                  So the only reason for reacting was because, he might not have actual experience, it doesn't matter if he is right or wrong, the fact that someone hasn't any experience makes what he sez wrong anyway?

                  If you don't think so, I must say, your post indicates otherwise

                  I assumed he didn't write it himself, because of the title, if it would have been his own, the "article on" would have been ommited

                  By not mentioning the author, one can only comment the contents, not the author or his experience

                  btw what is your own experience in these matters?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Charley, you know, the hurricane? You're in Florida, ain'tcha? That's the latest questions you ask any Floridian these days; "How'd (Hurricane) Charley treat you?"
                    You know what's funny? When Charley kicked up to a category four hurricane. It took a new route so that only the edge of the hurricane hit. That combined with the fact that it dropped to a category 1 by the time it actually hit just caused a lil drizzle in my part of town. I feel I'm pretty lucky compared to those guys that took the blunt of the assault.
                    But bjj was attempting to pass himself off as an expert who knew how to handle police when in reality he's never had to deal with them in the negative aspect.

                    It would be one thing is he mentioned that getting arrested, hassled, or harassed by police has got to suck. It's another when he offers advice on how to deal with these circumstances despite the fact that he hasn't experienced them, or had dealings with the legal system.

                    BJJexper...: The name of this thread was "Article on how to react when approached by a policeman". Nowhere does it say that you did not write it and/or provide a source. How do we know that you didn't write this article yourself...Oh yeah why would the kid who was trying to get us to do his work, put effort into this.

                    I guess that oso and I just thought too highly of you. I myself in the future will make sure that I treat you like an idiot
                    I wasnt intending to pass myself off as an expert. It was just a article I found in another forums that I found interesting and thought perhaps I could share it with you guys. If i confused anyone else into thinking that I wrote this article, my apologies.
                    I guess that oso and I just thought too highly of you. I myself in the future will make sure that I treat you like an idiot
                    No need. I can make myself feel like an idiot just fine :P

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I'd just like to no note that I am chinese. While the writer of the article has one of those cruddy American names

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Many Chinese parents give their kids "American" names. Honestly I didn't think of that because the race equation I just didn’t think of.

                        But Mr. Yum is convinced that I’m a racist.
                        I was born in Hong Kong and indeed Chinese parents give their kids American middle names but they don't change their last names...

                        Comment

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