Gun Confiscation Now Beginning in California

[John Bennett]

Honestly, Lacrymosa, if you looked at the facts, not that anti-gunner propaganda, you'd be pro-gun.


Lacrymosa wrote:

Research shows that a gun kept in the home is 43 TIMES MORE LIKELY TO KILL A MEMBER OF THE HOUSEHOLD, OR FRIEND, THAN AN INTRUDER.


The 1993 study where they get those numbers, published in the New England Journal of Medicine, never actually inquired as to whose gun was used in the killing.

Instead, if a household owned a gun and if a person in that household or someone he knew was shot to death while in the home, the gun in the household was blamed.

In fact, virtually all the killings in the study were committed with guns brought in by an intruder. No more than 4% of the gun deaths in the study can be attributed to the homeowner's gun. Even those include suicides, drug deals gone bad

This illistrates the extraordinary lengths to which the anti-gunners go to twist the facts into disinformation.


Lacry, I used to be an gun prohibitionist and leftist just like you. I learned how to conduct public policy analysis while earning my bachelor's degree in it. That's when my views started to change because the numbers just didn't work out.

Don't take the anti-gun propaganda at face value. You owe it to yourself to find out where and how they actually arrive at those numbers.

[Newbie]

"Right wingers will take a womans right to chose, but will be for the death penalty."

Republicans, as well as the overwhelming majority of Americans, are more saddened by the death of an innocent, unborn child than by the death of a convicted murderer like Ted Bundy.

"the gov. says no we dont owe you a college education. That is bullshit. All kids rich,poor or middle class deserve a chance at college. Not just rich kids who's parents can afford it. But republicans want just rich kids to go to college."


No one is obligated to pay for your secondary education except you. I have never and will never accept one penny of financial aid from the federal government and have never relied on my parents for any financial help, either directly or indirectly, in paying for college.

---Ronin

"Are you an expert on AmeriCORPs? I doubt it. "

J. B. has an opinion regarding AmeriCORPS and would like to share it with the fourm. If you must be an expert on a given topic in order for your opinion to have merit, I guess I better stop posting on this forum and limit myself to reading the opinions of the "experts".

---Lacrymosa

"Research shows that a gun kept in the home is 43 TIMES MORE LIKELY TO KILL A MEMBER OF THE HOUSEHOLD, OR FRIEND, THAN AN INTRUDER. "

The way you stated it, that statement makes no differentation between accidental and intentional shootings. It makes no mention of where the deaths actually occured, although it definitely implies that they ocurred in the home. It does not differentiate between legally and illegally owned fireamrs. The word "friend" is a rather relative term.
From what I can tell, a drug dealer with a sub-machine gun he illegally purchased on the black market can shoot an acquaintance or "friend" in a parking lot with a "gun kept in the home" (since that is where he normally keeps it) and that murder would still count the same as a six year old accidenatlly shooting himself.
Could you please provide a link to where I can view this information firsthand in order to be sure that you are representing it accurately?

[Ronin]

Newbie:

As Pit Dog would say, the value of a person's "opinion" is in direct relation to their knowledge and level of expertise in the given subject.

JB characterized AmeriCORPs as being "full of holes" if memory serves. If he doesn't have the knowledge to elaborate, maybe he should just keep his uninformed opinion to himself.

Personally, I can't say whether AmeriCORPs works or not. I don't have any first-hand knowledge.

By contrast, everyone is entitled to an opinion about firearms. It is a fairly straight-forward subject.

John Bennett:

Since you brought up this subject, and since you are such a vociferous and eloquent defender of the Second Amendment, what would you suggest to counter the plague of gun violence, other than gun control?

[Tony10]

Yawn. Well at least we got our first big one going on the new board.

Joe/Pit Dog: I totally agree with you about--I'm paraphrasing here--decadence leading to complacency, setting up a society for the big fall. Not too sure what gun control has to do speeding that up, but since the Roman Empire (or earlier), it's sad that so many who don't learn from history are, indeed, condemned to repeat it.

Others: why is everybody so all-or-nothing about this issue? There's a lot of bogus numbers flying back-and-forth here to reinforce people's entrenched, no-give positions.

If you believe the NRA'ers, even the slightest restriction on gun ownership will result in commie subs running aground in the Gulf of Mexico, providing sea support for the black helicopters of the New World Order invading force which now has a cakewalk because you weren't allowed to purchase an AK-47 at Wal-Mart last week.

The argument goes like this: any restriction/requirement for gun ownership = trojan horse for Big Brother to take weapons out of the hands of all citizens. Because that invading force would surely have been repelled by you firing your Saturday Night Special out of your front window.

As for self-defense, I don't read too many stories in the liberal-controlled, lefty media like I Fought Off Carjackers With My M-16, Which I Had in My Glove Compartment!. I do read some about high school kids getting mowed down in their school library with weapons like this.

To be that hard-line is irresponsible. To start screaming about Leninists parachuting into downtown Austin the moment somebody has to get a license if they want to buy an enormously lethal and dangerous weapon is just flat-out alarmist.

That's where you lose a lot of us. You want guns? Fine; but you have to qualify to some extent.

I didn't hear you screaming about Marx's Master Plan when you had to get a driver's license. I know you want to interpret the 2nd Amendment as you have; but gunshots are a national epidemic; they're not only a crime problem but an enormous health and financial burden on this nation. It's time to do something. Surely this is not what the founding fathers had in mind. The founding fathers didn't have to dive for cover to escape somebody on full-auto opening up in a horse-buggy drive-by.

The failure of some of you above even to consider compromising is why we always end up in these arguments. Yeah, bad people--not guns--kill people. Actually, Commie regimes like Ireland, England and Canada have bad people too. But they don't have 34,000 gunshot deaths a year. And you don't hear too many stories about how--damn!--I could have fought off that attacker had I only been able to purchase an Uzi!

Lastly, enough of this leftie crap. Commies are history. They were always Facists in disguise anyway. Facists are just lazier. Didn't want to bother with that "providing for the people" crap.

The coup d'etat that you guys keep fantasizing about isn't coming over from Moscow. It's coming right out from your own backyard, and it ain't from the "left."

It's going to happen because of what Joe said above. It won't be because you didn't have firearms to repel Ukranian tanks rolling into San Antonio. It's going to happen silently, as your government is slowly sold out from underneath you by the latest snake-oil salesman candidate (Bush or Gore--it doesn't f***ing matter, one will just get us there a lot faster) while our nation is distracted into non-action by decadence, materialism and divisive fights against each other like this one.

Not with a bang (pun intended), but with a wimper.

By the way, please no lefty insults--I'm not a Democrat. Nor am I limp-wristed or particularly long-haired.

[Edited by Tony10 on 10-04-2000 at 11:12 AM]

[paw]

John and everyone else,

Could you please post recommended reading about gun control so that we can investigate for ourselves?

Thanks,

Paul

[Ronin]

Tony10:

Brilliant!

You obviously have more credibility because you don't wear your lefty-leanings on your sleeve, like I do. I have no use for guns, and it shows, but that doesn't mean I want to revoke the Second Amendment.

I'll let you take point. You're more reasonable.

[John Bennett]

Absolutely Ronin!

Start reading reading here... http://www.guncite.com


Other good ones...

Democrats for the Second Amendment

Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership

Lawyer's Second Amendment Society

[Ronin]

JB:

Thank you.

I'm all for stricter enforcement. Like I said, I have no problem with LAW-ABIDING citizens owning firearms -- just psychos. I'm still a little worried about the psychos stealing guns from law-abiding citizens, but we can table that discussion for later.

[Yojimbo]

"Since you brought up this subject, and since you are such a vociferous and eloquent defender of the Second Amendment, what would you suggest to counter the plague of gun violence, other than gun control? "

Ronin,

I know this question was directed to John but I like to give it a try.

Maybe we could actually enforce the current laws and punish those who commit crimes with firearms! How's that for an idea?

What the gun control laws are doing is making crimminals out of honest citizens. This is still America and you are innocent until proven guilty.

You want more gun control? If you analyze any of the tragic shootings you will see that almost everything the offender did was already against the law! Do you honestly think the crimminals would stop and obey the next great law that gets put on the books??

BTW I bet you didn't know that crimminals don't have to register their guns because they are protected from self incrimination by the 4th Amendment!

Thinking that passing more laws will fix what the ones you passed earlier didn't fix is insane!

Repeting the same action over and over again and expecting a different result is just absurd!

Regards,

Yojimbo

[Ronin]

Yojimbo:

I like your name, but you didn't read my last post.

All I want are results. Period. I'm tired of reading about dead kids. Pass new laws, enforce old laws -- it's all the same to me. Whatever works. I'm all for sticking with the old laws, but the Colombine kids got through a loophole (gun shows; no background check) that needs to be closed.

[Hawk]

Yojimbo,
Thanks for your post as too the feelings of many people on the second amendment. You can certainly include me in that group.
Hawk

[Yojimbo]

Ronin,

I like your name too. Wasn't Yojimbo a Ronin??

You're right I didn't get to read you post before I submitted mine. OK, the secret is out, I type sloooww.

As for the gun show loophole, last I remember providing firearms to minors is illegal regardless of who it comes from. Many in place laws were broken by that act alone.

Hawk,

You and me both!! Is it a fact that none of the states that introduced a CCW law have ever rescinded the law? It would be a Liberals dream if the bloodbaths they predicted came true. I bet all those CCW laws would rescinded faster than Bill Clinton could drop his drawers. Aren't there 43 states now have CCW laws in place? You would think the Libs would like CCW beause it gets people licensed and registered just like they want...

Regards,

Yojimbo

[Hawk]

Yojimbo,
The last I heard you are correct. The right to carry law is in place in many states and as far as I know has never been recinded in any.When the Texas Congress was having hearings on the right to carry, a young lady, who is an avid shooter and was in the hamburger place the crazy guy shot up in Waco, testified that if a right to carry had been in effect at that time she would have been carrying and about half way through the shooting she had a clear sight picture and could have taken the guy out saving some lives. It was very moving it was testimony like this that got us the right to carry law in Texas.
Hawk

[Mickey Finn]

Try getting a CCW in California. If you go look at the list of people who ARE granted CCW’s here it reads like who’s who. We are all legally empowered to utilize deadly force in defending our lives or the lives of our loved ones…… your just not allowed to carry the deadly force unless you’re a Hollywood star, extremely wealthy, or consistently make large campaign contributions. Very elitist and very double standard. Little people are expected to curl up into a ball and die like good little victims. Your life is simply not as valuable as those of the rich and famous, who ironically are often very anti gun after they have theirs.

[Badger]