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Caucasian Please! America's Cultural Double Standard For Misogyny & Racism

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  • Caucasian Please! America's Cultural Double Standard For Misogyny & Racism

    Caucasian Please! America's Cultural Double Standard For Misogyny & Racism By Dr. Edward Rhymes



    "The public is far more disturbed by misogynistic lyrics in rap music than in rock music -- the domain of white musicians. Seems it isn't sexism that the dominant culture is opposed to, but rather the black voices communicating the message."


    Introduction

    In this composition I will not be addressing the whole of hip-hop and rap, but rather hardcore and gangsta rap. It is my assertion that the mainstream media and political pundits -- right and left -- have painted rap and hip-hop with a very broad brush. Let me be perfectly clear, hardcore and gangsta rap is not listened to, watched, consumed or supported in my home and never has been. I will not be an apologist for anything that chooses to frame the dialogue about Black women (and women in general) and Black life in morally bankrupt language and reprehensible symbols.

    In the wake of MSNBC's and CBS's firing of Don Imus, the debate over misogyny, sexism and racism has now taken flight -- or submerged, depending on your point of view. There are many, mostly white, people who believe that Imus was a fall guy and he is receiving blame and criticism for what many rap artists do continually in the lyrics and videos: debase and degrade Black women. A Black guest on an MSNBC news program even went as far as to say, "Where would a 66 year-old white guy even had heard the phrase nappy-headed ho" -- alluding to hip-hop music's perceived powerful influence upon American culture and life (and apparently over the radio legend as well) -- and by so doing gave a veneer of truth to the theory that rap music is the main culprit to be blamed for this contemporary brand of chauvinism.

    However, I concur with bell hooks, the noted sociologist and black-feminist activist who said that "to see gangsta rap as a reflection of dominant values in our culture rather than as an aberrant 'pathological' standpoint, does not mean that a rigorous feminist critique of the sexist and misogyny expressed in this music is not needed. Without a doubt black males, young and old, must be held politically accountable for their sexism.

    Yet this critique must always be contextualized or we risk making it appear that the behavior this thinking supports and condones -- rape, male violence against women, etc. -- is a black male thing. And this is what is happening. Young black males are forced to take the 'heat' for encouraging, via their music, the hatred of and violence against women that is a central core of patriarchy."

    There are those in the media, mostly white males (but also some black pundits as well), who now want the Black community to take a look at hip-hop music and correct the diabolical "double-standard" that dwells therein. Before a real conversation can be had, we have to blow-up the myths, expose the lies and cast a powerful and discerning light on the "real" double-standards and duplicity. Kim Deterline and Art Jones in their essay, Fear of a Rap Planet, point out that "the issue with media coverage of rap is not whether African Americans engaged in a campaign against what they see as violent, sexist or racist imagery in rap should be heard -- they should. ...[W]hy are community voices fighting racism and sexism in mainstream news media, films and advertisements not treated similarly?

    The answer may be found in white-owned corporate media's historical role as facilitator of racial scapegoating. Perhaps before advocating censorship of a music form with origins in a voiceless community, mainstream media pundits should look at the violence perpetuated by their own racism and sexism."

    Just as the mainstream media and the dominant culture-at-large treats all things "Black" in America as the "other" or as some sort of science experiment in a test tube in an isolated and controlled environment, so hardcore rap is treated as if it occurred in some kind of cultural vacuum; untouched, unbowed and uninformed by the larger, broader, dominant American culture. The conversation is always framed in the form of this question: "What is rap's influence on American society and culture?" Never do we ask, "What has been society's role in shaping and influencing hip-hop?"

    Gangsta and hardcore rap is the product of a society that has historically objectified and demeaned women, and commercialized sex. These dynamics are present in hip hop to the extent that they are present in society. The rapper who grew up in the inner-city watched the same sexist television programs, commercials and movies; had access to the same pornographic and misogynistic magazines and materials; and read the same textbooks that limited the presence and excluded the achievements of women (and people of color as well), as the All-American, Ivy-league bound, white kid in suburban America.

    It is not sexism and misogyny that the dominant culture is opposed to (history and commercialism has proven that). The dominant culture's opposition lies with hip-hop's cultural variation of the made-in-the-USA misogynistic themes and with the Black voices communicating the message. The debate and the dialogue must be understood in this context.

    Popular Culture's Duplicitous Sexism & Violence In Black And White

    In a piece I penned a couple of years ago, I endeavored to point out the clear ethnic and racial double-standards of the media and society as it pertains to sex and violence. My assertion was, and remains to be, that the mainstream media and society-at-large, appear to have not so much of a problem with the glorification of sex and violence, but rather with who is doing the glorifying. In it I stated that "if the brutality and violence in gangsta rap was truly the real issue, then shouldn't a series like The Sopranos be held to the same standard? If we are so concerned about bloodshed, then how did movies like 'The Godfather,' 'The Untouchables' and 'Goodfellas' become classics?"

    I then addressed the sexual aspect of this double-standard by pointing out that "Sex & The City," a series that focused, by and large, on the sexual relationships of four white women, was hailed as a powerful demonstration of female camaraderie and empowerment.

    This show, during its run, was lavished with critical praise and commercial success while hip-hop and rap artists are attacked by the morality police for their depiction of sex in their lyrics and videos. The don't-blink-or-you'll-miss-it appearance of Janet Jackson's right bosom during [a] Super Bowl halftime show. ... caused more of a furor than the countless commercials that (also aired during the Super Bowl) used sex to sell anything from beer to cars to gum. Not to mention the constant stream of commercials that rather openly talks about erectile dysfunction medication."

    The exaltation of drugs, misogyny and violence in music lyrics has a history that predates NWA, Ice Cube, Ice T and Snoop Dogg. Elton John's 1977 song "Tickin," was about a young man who goes into a bar and kills 14 people; Bruce Springsteen's "Nebraska," featured a couple on a shooting spree, and his "Johnny 99," was about a gun-waving laid-off worker; and Stephen Sondheim's score for "Assassins," which presented songs mostly in the first person about would-be and successful presidential assassins.

    Eric Clapton's "Cocaine" and the Beatles' "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" (LSD) as well as almost anything by Jefferson Airplane or Spaceship. Several songs from "Tommy" and Pink Floyd's "The Wall" are well known drug songs. "Catholic girls," "Centerfold," "Sugar Walls" by Van Halen were raunchy, misogynistic, lust-driven rock refrains.

    Even the country music legend Kenny Rogers in his legendary ballad, "Coward Of The County," spoke of a violent gang-rape and then a triple-homicide by the song's hero to avenge his assaulted lover. Marilyn Manson declared that one of the aims of his provocative persona was to see how much it would take to get the moralists as mad at white artists as they got about 2LiveCrew. He said it took fake boobs, Satanism, simulated sex on stage, death and angst along with semi-explicit lyrics, to get the same screaming the 2LiveCrew got for one song. Manson thought this reaction was hypocritical and hilarious.

    Other artists like Kid Rock have won commercial success easily and faced only minor battles with the FCC with songs such as: "F**k U Blind. Consider the lyrics of Kid Rock, whose piercing blend of hard rock, metal and misogyny has sold millions of records:

    Now if you like the booty come on fellas show it This is your last verse to wax so why would you blow it And if the ladies if you are tired of a man on your fanny Then f--k you go home and watch the tube with granny ... Just look at all the girls that are dying to get some Man, just don't be a wussy, And I'll guarantee you could get a piece of p----

    Likewise, consider the lyrics of the rock song "Anything Goes" from Guns 'N Roses:

    Panties 'round your knees

    With your ass in debris

    Doin' dat grind with a push and squeeze

    Tied up, tied down, up against the wall

    Be my rubbermade baby

    An' we can do it all.''

    The bad-boy, outlaw rockers have traditionally and consistently been marketed and packaged as misogynistic. Artists and groups such as David Lee Roth, Kid Rock, Metallica, Uncle Kracker, to name a few.

    Take note of the following list of rock groups and some of the albums and songs that they have released: American Dog (released an album in 2001 titled, Six Pack: Songs About Drinkin & F**kin), Big C*ck (released an album in 2005 titled: Year Of The C**k -- with titles like Bad Motherf***er, Hard To Swallow & You Suck The Love Out Of Me) W.A.S.P. (released an album in 1983 titled: Animal: F**ks Like A Beast, an album in 1997 K.F.D.: Kill, F**k, Die), Faster Pussycat (released album in 1992 titled Whipped -- with a song titled Loose Booty, 2001 titled: Between The Valley Of The Ultra P**sy, 2006 album titled: The Power Of The Glory Hole -- with such titles as Porn Star and Shut Up & F**k), Lynch Mob (released an album in 2003 titled: Evil: Live -- featuring the song (Tie Your Mother Down) and a compilation album released in 2003 titled C**k'N'Roll: The World's Sleaziest Rock Bands -- displaying "hits" like: Dog Sh*t Boys -- One Minute F**k, Sagger -- The Closest I've Ever Come To F**king Myself and Hellside Stranglers -- Motherf***ers Don't Cry.

    In an article by Dana Williams titled, BEYOND RAP: Musical Misogyny, Ann Savage, associate professor of telecommunications at Butler University stated: "It's the repetitiveness of the messages, the repetitiveness of the attitudes, and it builds on people...." "People say rap is dangerous. Yes, rap music does have misogyny, but there has always been an objectification and misogyny against women in music," said Savage. "Yet we focus on the black artists, not the rockers and not even the white executives who are making the big money from this kind of music."

    Savage further asserts that the race-based double standard applies to violent content in music as well. "There was the Eric Clapton remake of Marley's 'I Shot the Sheriff,' and there was little to be said. But then you have the 'Cop Killer' song by Ice-T and it's dangerous and threatening."

    In this same article Cynthia Fuchs, an associate professor at George Mason University, affirmed that "the public seems far more disturbed by misogynistic lyrics in the music of rap and hip hop artists who are largely black than similar lyrics in rock music, perceived by most as a white genre."

    "The flamboyance of rock is understood as performance, rather than from the perspective of personal feelings," said Fuchs, who teaches courses in film and media studies, African American studies and cultural studies. "These guys are seen as innocuous. They appear to be players in the fence of accumulating women in skimpy costumes, but they aren't necessarily seen as violent. The mainstream takes it (hip hop and rap) to represent real-life, so it's seen as more threatening than some of the angry, whiney white boy rock, even though the same messages and images are portrayed."

    Moreover, in a piece titled C*ck Rock from the October 21-November 3, 2003 edition of the online music magazine Perfect Pitch, it was revealed that when the Hustler founder and entrepreneur Larry Flynt wanted to combine the worlds of porn (the ultimate god of misogyny) and music he did not turn to rap, but rather to rock.

    It was stated that since porn has been mainstreamed, they wanted a more "contemporary" look -- and when they looked for a contemporary look, did they seek out the likes of Nelly, Chingy, 50 Cent or Ludacris? No. Rock legend Nikki Sixx was chosen to "grace" the cover of Hustler's new venture along with his adult-entertainment and former Baywatch star girlfriend Donna D'Errico wearing nothing but a thong and Sixx's arms.

    It is my belief that this paradigm; this unjust paradox exists because of the media stereotypes of black men as more violence-prone, and media's disproportionate focus on black crime (which is confused with the personas that rappers adopt), contribute to the biased treatment of rap. The double standard applied to rap music makes it easier to sell the idea that "gangsta rap" is "more" misogynist, racist, violent and dangerous than any other genre of music.

    However, I believe that bell hooks conceptualized it best in her essay Sexism and Misogyny: Who Takes the Rap?: "To the white dominated mass media, the controversy over gangsta rap makes great spectacle. Besides the exploitation of these issues to attract audiences, a central motivation for highlighting gangsta rap continues to be the sensationalist drama of demonizing black youth culture in general and the contributions of young black men in particular. It is a contemporary remake of 'Birth of a Nation' only this time we are encouraged to believe it is not just vulnerable white womanhood that risks destruction by black hands but everyone."

    continued ...

  • #2
    Caucasian Please! America's Cultural Double Standard For Misogyny & Racism

    Caucasian Please! America's Cultural Double Standard For Misogyny & Racism By Dr. Edward Rhymes


    "The public is far more disturbed by misogynistic lyrics in rap music than in rock music -- the domain of white musicians. Seems it isn't sexism that the dominant culture is opposed to, but rather the black voices communicating the message."

    ... continued

    Part of the allure of gangsta or hardcore rap to the young person is its (however deplorable) explicitness. The gangsta rapper says "bitches" and "hos," defiantly and frankly (once again... deplorable) and that frankness strikes a chord.

    However, it is not the first time that a young man or woman has seen society "treat" women like "bitches" and "hos." Like mother's milk, the American male in this country has been "nourished" on a constant diet of subtle messages and notions regarding female submission and inferiority and when he is weaned, he begins to feed on the meat of more exploitative mantras and images of American misogyny long before he ever pops in his first rap album into his CD player.

    Young people, for better or worse, are looking for and craving authenticity. Now, because this quality is in such rare-supply in today's society, they gravitate towards those who appear to be "real" and "true to the game." Tragically, they appreciate the explicitness without detesting or critically deconstructing what the person is being explicit about.

    There have been many who have said that even with Imus gone from the airwaves, the American public in general and the Black community in particular will still be inundated by the countless rap lyrics using derogatory and sexist language, as well as the endless videos displaying women in various stages of undress -- and this is true.

    However, by that same logic, if we were to rid the record stores, the clubs and the iPods of all misogynistic hip-hop, we would still have amongst us the corporately-controlled and predominantly white-owned entities of Playboy, Penthouse, Hustler and Hooters. We would still have the reality TV shows, whose casts are overwhelmingly white, reveling in excessive intoxication and suspect sexual mores.

    If misogynistic hip-hop was erased from American life and memory today, tomorrow my e-mail box and the e-mail boxes of millions of others would still be barraged with links to tens of thousands of adult entertainment web sites. We would still have at our fingertips, courtesy of cable and satellite television, porn-on-demand. We would still be awash in a society and culture that rewards promiscuity and sexual explicitness with fame, fortune and celebrity (reference Anna Nicole, Paris Hilton, Britney Spears).

    And most hypocritically, if we were to purge the sexist and lewd lyrics from hip-hop, there would still be a multitude of primarily white bands and principally-white musical genres generating song after song glorifying sexism, misogyny, violence and lionizing male sexuality and sexual conquest.

    Comment


    • #3
      "Yawn...."

      Comment


      • #4
        ........................................

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Mr. Arieson
          woke up and said "where the F#$%k am I, and why do I have this M$%#F^@$ing candy bar in my hand?"
          thats happened to me a few times before.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Mr. Arieson
            I tried to read this diatribe, fell asleep half way through, woke up and said "where the F#$%k am I, and why do I have this M$%#F^@$ing candy bar in my hand?"
            Are you sure that's a candy bar...?
            Last edited by Tom Yum; 07-08-2007, 11:59 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Uke, do you buy into the argument that it is the "explicitness" or "authenticity" that young people are attracted to? that was the only part of the analysis presented here that i thought was pretty half-assed. i see zero instances where that is the circumstance in the rest of popular culture. i think the opposite is much more likely true. i think it's more likely that fans, on some level, love the act. they can identify with the desire to where masks. they like the affected persona of someone beyond the reach of society, and seek to affect it themselves.

              Comment


              • #8
                The_Judo_Jibboo

                Originally posted by The_Judo_Jibboo View Post
                Uke, do you buy into the argument that it is the "explicitness" or "authenticity" that young people are attracted to? that was the only part of the analysis presented here that i thought was pretty half-assed. i see zero instances where that is the circumstance in the rest of popular culture. i think the opposite is much more likely true. i think it's more likely that fans, on some level, love the act
                I agree with you to a degree on some things you wrote. I do think it has to do with authenticity. People want something that they feel is real and unadulterated ... A genuine expression, be it violent or peaceful, as long as its real. I think that people are attracted to displays of confidence and authenticity in the sense that people want to believe what is being said, and you can't believe in something that you sense is false or unsure. If nothing else, hip hop exudes confidence. That's why street credibility has become so important among gansta rap artists. Many feel that one shouldn't rap about something that he's never done or experienced. Afterall, that is what hip hop is and always was: A reflection of the street's perspective of what's going on.

                I believe that has a lot to do with authenticity.

                Originally posted by The_Judo_Jibboo
                they can identify with the desire to where masks. they like the affected persona of someone beyond the reach of society, and seek to affect it themselves.
                Here we agree as well. Its not uncommon for rappers to take on names like Capone, Scarface, Noriega, Escobar, as well as other men who have been viewed as untouchable. Men who have, among other things, broke the rules and have had success doing it. These men rappers emulate were REAL gangsters though, not musicians who glorify the life that these men actually led, but they are revered for having the balls to take risks and live dangerously despite what laws were passed to the contrary.

                Fans today more than ever personify the old adage "Life imitates art". They do seek to affect those desires in themselves, as a means of authentication I think.

                I think the majority of those who might be attracted to explicitness view it as another form of breaking the rules. Profanity isn't acceptable. Nor is carrying a gun or selling drugs. Believe it or not, there are a lot of kids that come from rich families that are out there selling drugs and carrying guns for the thrill. They don't need the money. They weren't raised to act like that. They simply seek to break away from how they feel they were viewed before, and now look to establish a new persona that commands respect from others that see that lifestyle as dangerous. They figure men fear other men who's identity is associated with violence, and women love it. And for the most part they're right.

                But I must admit I was pleasantly suprised by your reply, The_Judo_Jibboo. You sought to have meaningful dialogue and I appreciate that. I truly didn't expect a single worthwhile response because I knew that when I threw the double standards back into the face of those who condemned hip hop for its violent messages but refuse to acknowledge that they are hypocrites who covet their Sopranos, Godfather and other gangster dvd collections, they would instantly find this article boring and not worth reading.

                I guess rappers glorify the low life, ghetto ganster who has no class. People here on this site prefer the sophisticated gangster ... equipped with a pinky ring, political connections and a big house. Its acceptable then.

                Just like dancing by shaking your ass in a rap video is supposedly degrading to women, but girls getting naked and showing their breasts in Girls Gone Wild videos is fine, and you can tell by the commercial coming on every 10 minutes.

                Yours was the only reply that had to do with the article and not some pathetic attempt to seem uninterested for the sake of not discussing just how much the article hit home.

                Thanks again, The_Judo_Jibboo

                Comment


                • #9
                  its true about the girls gone wild commercials. those advertisements are played all night long. the best part is the commercial were that one girl is on her cell phone, telling her dad she is about to be on girls gone wild. you guys realize some of those girls were under 18?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Uke View Post
                    I agree with you to a degree on some things you wrote. I do think it has to do with authenticity. People want something that they feel is real and unadulterated ... A genuine expression, be it violent or peaceful, as long as its real.
                    Why place one's faith or ideals in something false or ingenuine?

                    Originally posted by Uke View Post
                    I think that people are attracted to displays of confidence and authenticity in the sense that people want to believe what is being said, and you can't believe in something that you sense is false or unsure. If nothing else, hip hop exudes confidence. I believe that has a lot to do with authenticity..
                    I think performers exude confidence, whether you are talking about Eddie Van Halen, Tito Puente or Dr. Dre.

                    To be a performer, one has to be able to be certain of what they can do and then do it otherwise they'd shrivel up on stage and get booed/lauged off way before they make it. And that's just the fans, not the real critics...

                    I say this having played an instrument for 9 years infront of as many as 10,000 people - not as a professional soloist because I'm not nearly as talented, but as an amateur performer part of a group in places like San Antonio's Alamodome at age 17 and Pick-Steiger Hall in Northwestern University at age 15.

                    Originally posted by Uke View Post
                    These men rappers emulate were REAL gangsters though, not musicians who glorify the life that these men actually led, but they are revered for having the balls to take risks and live dangerously despite what laws were passed to the contrary.
                    Yep.

                    Originally posted by Uke View Post
                    I think the majority of those who might be attracted to explicitness view it as another form of breaking the rules. Profanity isn't acceptable. Nor is carrying a gun or selling drugs. Believe it or not, there are a lot of kids that come from rich families that are out there selling drugs and carrying guns for the thrill. They don't need the money. They weren't raised to act like that. They simply seek to break away from how they feel they were viewed before, and now look to establish a new persona that commands respect from others that see that lifestyle as dangerous. They figure men fear other men who's identity is associated with violence, and women love it. And for the most part they're right.
                    I think kids in general do those things because they don't have real culture, real hobbies, too much energy and are bored. And parents are too soft on kids too.

                    If the kid (whether rich or poor) is up at 5am running cross country/swim team/club wrestling etc, attending classes from 7:30-2:30pm, doing homework for honors level classes and then participating in say choir/orchestra/jazz ensemble from 4-5:30pm every day - his plate is already full and doesn't need to put crap on there that doesn't help him grow as a person or improve his academic standing.

                    Speaking of kids and firearms look at kids who grow up in the country!

                    They understand the power and responsbibility of carrying firearms. They don't do it because they feel the need to be powerful - they grow up hunting, seeing entry and exit wounds of different rounds on deer and fowl. They've got to protect land when dad's gone.


                    Originally posted by Uke View Post
                    I guess rappers glorify the low life, ghetto ganster who has no class. People here on this site prefer the sophisticated gangster ... equipped with a pinky ring, political connections and a big house. Its acceptable then..
                    You're putting words in the mouths of alot of people on here.

                    I listen to quite a bit of rap music, Uke. But unlike some, I can appreciate it for its beat, creativity and mood that it creates and then go off and carry on a normal life without trying to imitate what I've heard.

                    To be honest, I am more impressed with a performer such as Wynton Marsalis, whom although is a superb jazz musician, has the expertise to cross over into the classical world, and play oh Flight of the Bumblebee in under 1:00 flawlessly. Wouldn't you say that takes talent?

                    Not to mention that when he performs, his public persona is polite, professional and positive - quite a bit different than his counterparts in the rap industry.

                    For trumpeteers, playing flight of the bumblebee in under 1:00 is the equivalent of a runner breaking a 5:00 mile......while juggling!

                    I can chose whom I want to admire - the media doesn't chose for me.
                    Last edited by Tom Yum; 07-08-2007, 04:57 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Tom Yum View Post
                      I think kids in general do those things because they don't have real culture, real hobbies, too much energy and are bored. And parents are too soft on kids too.

                      If the kid (whether rich or poor) is up at 5am running cross country/swim team/club wrestling etc, attending classes from 7:30-2:30pm, doing homework for honors level classes and then participating in say choir/orchestra/jazz ensemble from 4-5:30pm every day - his plate is already full and doesn't need to put crap on there that doesn't help him grow as a person or improve his academic standing.

                      Speaking of kids and firearms look at kids who grow up in the country!

                      They understand the power and responsbibility of carrying firearms. They don't do it because they feel the need to be powerful - they grow up hunting, seeing entry and exit wounds of different rounds on deer and fowl. They've got to protect land when dad's gone.
                      Of course those kids have no culture. That's why they are always imitating someone else's. And its not just the bored or ADD kids that fit that bill. There are plenty of A students that participate in extracurricular activities that still imitate the dangerous or violent attitudes.

                      As far as country kids understanding the power and responsibility of firearms, look at Columbine. Those weren't urban kids. Their actions were all about feeling powerful.

                      Originally posted by Tom Yum View Post
                      You're putting words in the mouths of alot of people on here.

                      I listen to quite a bit of rap music, Uke. But unlike some, I can appreciate it for its beat, creativity and mood that it creates and then go off and carry on a normal life without trying to imitate what I've heard.

                      To be honest, I am more impressed with a performer such as Wynton Marsalis, whom although is a superb jazz musician, has the expertise to cross over into the classical world, and play oh Flight of the Bumblebee in under 1:00 flawlessly. Wouldn't you say that takes talent?

                      Not to mention that when he performs, his public persona is polite, professional and positive - quite a bit different than his counterparts in the rap industry.

                      For trumpeteers, playing flight of the bumblebee in under 1:00 is the equivalent of a runner breaking a 5:00 mile......while juggling!

                      I can chose whom I want to admire - the media doesn't chose for me.
                      I've got to be honest with you Tom. I don't think I am.

                      Its fine in most minds to enjoy a good gangster flick. The characters are men that they admire. Gangsta rappers admire them as well and many have adopted names just like them. When Joe Pesci shoots, stabs or tortures a guy, its a classic scene. When Don Corleone has a horse head left in a bed, its a classic scene. When Al Capone distributes liquor despite prohibition and bloody gun battles ensue, its classic. When rappers sing about it, its somehow terribly wrong though. In some strange way, a rapper named Scarface rapping about cocaine is somehow more harmful to kids than Al Pacino dropping his head into a pile of it on his desk.

                      I like Wynton Marsalis too. Did you know that most of the great jazz musicians could play not only classical music but all kinds including country? Did you also know that jazz musicians had to endure very much the same scrutiny and criticism that rappers do today? And the jazz artists were polite and properly dressed. Why then do you think that they were judged, criticized and even shunned? The answer is obvious if you can be honest with yourself. You can like whoever you want to, Tom. That doesn't change what I've said or the fact that its the truth.

                      Many people here like to pretend that things have changed, but they haven't. Bigots and assholes had double standards back then, and they still have them today. Its how they keep their egos intact.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by DickHardman View Post
                        its true about the girls gone wild commercials. those advertisements are played all night long. the best part is the commercial were that one girl is on her cell phone, telling her dad she is about to be on girls gone wild. you guys realize some of those girls were under 18?
                        I'm torn on the girl's gone wild issue...on one hand I realize how fucking exploitative it is- taking advantage of drunk girls...and on the other...how fucking stupid those little whores are.

                        I say take those little bitches and the people who exploit them, put them all up against a wall, and shoot'em.

                        [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXFNyr1RMoA[/YOUTUBE]

                        take'em all, watch'em fall.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Garland View Post
                          I'm torn on the girl's gone wild issue...on one hand I realize how fucking exploitative it is- taking advantage of drunk girls...and on the other...how fucking stupid those little whores are.

                          I say take those little bitches and the people who exploit them, put them all up against a wall, and shoot'em.



                          take'em all, watch'em fall.
                          I didn't see where you were torn. You feel that they're stupid whores who should be shot. Where's the torn part?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Uke View Post
                            Of course those kids have no culture. That's why they are always imitating someone else's. And its not just the bored or ADD kids that fit that bill. There are plenty of A students that participate in extracurricular activities that still imitate the dangerous or violent attitudes. .
                            But the vast majority are not.


                            Originally posted by Uke View Post
                            As far as country kids understanding the power and responsibility of firearms, look at Columbine. Those weren't urban kids. Their actions were all about feeling powerful.
                            Nope. The Columbine kids were part of a group they called the Trench Coat Mafia? and they were into Goth culture if I'm not mistaken; that's completely different than what you'd consider country.

                            Originally posted by Uke View Post
                            Its fine in most minds to enjoy a good gangster flick. The characters are men that they admire. Gangsta rappers admire them as well and many have adopted names just like them. When Joe Pesci shoots, stabs or tortures a guy, its a classic scene. When Don Corleone has a horse head left in a bed, its a classic scene. When Al Capone distributes liquor despite prohibition and bloody gun battles ensue, its classic. When rappers sing about it, its somehow terribly wrong though. In some strange way, a rapper named Scarface rapping about cocaine is somehow more harmful to kids than Al Pacino dropping his head into a pile of it on his desk. .
                            That's because bored children are more influenced by rap videos with flashy six second sound bites than they are by 2 hour films on the life of Al Capone. Rap videos appear on MTV - a station marketed to youngsters, not the Classical Movie Channel.

                            Do you see what 10 year olds are watching on T.V? Chances are its an MTV video.

                            You're less likely to find them "pontificating" over the use of symbolic intimidation in a Capone movie. This sounds more like a 20 year old film major at your local college.

                            Originally posted by Uke View Post
                            I like Wynton Marsalis too. Did you know that most of the great jazz musicians could play not only classical music but all kinds including country? Did you also know that jazz musicians had to endure very much the same scrutiny and criticism that rappers do today? And the jazz artists were polite and properly dressed. Why then do you think that they were judged, criticized and even shunned? The answer is obvious if you can be honest with yourself. You can like whoever you want to, Tom. That doesn't change what I've said or the fact that its the truth..
                            Yesteryear is the past; jazz musicians no longer undergo the same scrutiny they used to. They are revered by many today, even by rappers. Personally, I thought Miles Davis's last album Doo Bop was a nice fusion of hip hop and jazz - but that's Davis just showing his ability to adapt, a talent that the best jazz musicians have.

                            Anything that is new or different will meet with resistance from critics; that's a universal truth understood by innovators, whether they are in music, automobile manufacturing, sports medicine..etc. Add another complicated factor to the issue (color/race) and it makes innovation that much more complex. At the same time, the reward of such a successful innovation makes it sweeter.

                            The truth is, we're one of the few countries in the world that are non-homogeneous and still able to innovate or create, across racial lines despite the friction between them.

                            Take George Washington Carver, the agricultural chemist whom found over 300 uses for the peanut and over 100 uses for the sweet potatoe, soybean and pecans. I bet he faced criticisms and scrutiny. You know there were men lining up to take shots at him, some of them probably not nearly as talented as he, but by God they had an opinion to uphold and they did.

                            If he were alive today, he might have already solved our fuel problem..lol.

                            Originally posted by Uke View Post
                            Many people here like to pretend that things have changed, but they haven't. Bigots and assholes had double standards back then, and they still have them today. Its how they keep their egos intact.
                            You're right, Uke. But the existance of bigots and assholes in regards to race issues are going to be a constant in life.

                            There's always going to be someone who says, "Who they hell do you think YOU are!?" maybe in different wording or in action.

                            If you think that its horrible here, how about in countries where there is genocide between ethnic/religious lines take Darfur, Iraq etc.

                            People here have it much better.
                            Last edited by Tom Yum; 07-09-2007, 12:39 PM.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Garland View Post
                              I'm torn on the girl's gone wild issue...on one hand I realize how fucking exploitative it is- taking advantage of drunk girls...and on the other...how fucking stupid those little whores are.

                              I say take those little bitches and the people who exploit them, put them all up against a wall, and shoot'em.



                              take'em all, watch'em fall.
                              i think we may be responsible for turning them into that. i mean shit, when these little girls turn on the tv and see girls gone wild commercials playing on the channel every 10 minutes, maybe they begin to think that this is how people expect and want them to act?

                              as lonley and desperate a guy as i am, those girls gone wild commercials dont even turn me on, not one bit. im not gay, but those commercials are just disgusting. why would beautiful females subject themselves to such things? how many fathers, grandfathers, brothers, and boyfriends do you think were in the middle of dinner while the tv was on, only to have one of those commercials come on and have them see their sister, gf, even mother on girls gone wild taking their clothes off and having sex with other girls in a drunken fit while some guy who looks like beavis video tapes the entire thing? wtf?

                              now that i think about it, uke does have a point. how come the FCC waged such a war against howard stern, why do rappers get so much flack for their videos and lyrics, why are peaceful potheads persecuted so intensly, while teen girls, some of them way underage, are free to be exploited to such an extreme that you cant even change the channel to get away from the girls gone wild commercials because whatever channel you change it too is also playing the very same girls gone wild commercial. how many times do i have to see that shit and shake my head in disgust per night?

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